MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
hmmm looking at the last map releases (kodiak, derelict, caged)... I don't think ns2 rly goes towards 5 techpoints anymore. Even though it is still possible
KasharicHull, EnglandJoin Date: 2013-03-27Member: 184473Members, Forum Admins, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
So, basically what you're trying to say is that Veil is the only map you enjoy.
Because Tram, Biodome, Descent and Jambi are arguably more balanced... Veil is alien favored in the same way that summit is marine favored... but with pub play as it is at the moment, alien players are more often than not clueless, so they struggle more. Simply put, in low skill scenarios, yes, veil is balanced, but its balanced because the aliens can't play very well, not because the map itself is a balanced map.
I enjoy veil the most, for sure. I like descent and tram too. Eclipse feels a lot different from the NS1 eclipse, which used to be my favorite map. Not quite sure why that is, I think it has to do with maintenance and computer core feeling different
let's put it that way: balance of a map is heavily depending on player counts and playerskill. what might look balanced in lowskill scenarios might be unbalanced as fuck in highskill scenarios. same goes for the player count. some maps are playing kinda well on high player counts while others feel like a massive clusterfuck. same goes the other way arround. some maps are perfectly balanced for low playercounts and therefore play good.
obviously this only relates to balanced teams. so you comming and saying veil is the only good map or the most balanced map or anything like this is just plain wrong as there is more aspects on what scenarios a map feels balanced or not.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited September 2016
There is one thing to this though using the NS layout system, with fixed hives and one marine start... The areas don't have to be designed as a jack of all trades and compromise on alien/marine friendliness near a main base. So in a way, NS maps had more character if you have specific locations for specific teams. NS2 tends to go the way of "we must have all teams function fairly decently in ALL areas", which makes for a much less dynamic game
BUT THEN AGAIN!!!
We could've gone the way of, IF aliens spawn here, we get more alien stuff (obstructions/vents) and for marines better lighting and longer lines of sight. Areas near the MS and Hive could also get gradually more marine and alien friendly and the central neutral areas could be just that.
NS1.0+ >_> I bet Spark would have a stroke if this was done though
There is one thing to this though using the NS layout system, with fixed hives and one marine start... The areas don't have to be designed as a jack of all trades and compromise on alien/marine friendliness near a main base. So in a way, NS maps had more character if you have specific locations for specific teams. NS2 tends to go the way of "we must have all teams function fairly decently in ALL areas", which makes for a much less dynamic game
BUT THEN AGAIN!!!
We could've gone the way of, IF aliens spawn here, we get more alien stuff (obstructions/vents) and for marines better lighting and longer lines of sight. Areas near the MS and Hive could also get gradually more marine and alien friendly and the central neutral areas could be just that.
NS1.0+ >_> I bet Spark would have a stroke if this was done though
Maps should have just been procedurally generated. It's all the rage these days.
I compiled these statistics awhile ago on maps. Veil is by far the most played map. Going by win rates alone, veil is very balanced.
For those that don't want to click the link, here is a little bit from there.
All games map popularity, team win rates, team percentage of kills, and team percentage of Tres mined.
This thread's premise is false. That said, here's a consideration:
With regard to pub perception (especially among less experienced players), veil is one of the more "honest" maps if you consider the fact that the game is basically over once aliens get the 3rd hive.
Why? Since veil only has 4 tech points, marines rarely labor under the pretension that they aren't completely borked once aliens get the 3rd. On other maps, the presence of 5 tech points creates the impression that a 2/3 (marine/alien) tech point split positions the marines to reasonably anticipate a comeback. After all, they're only "one tech point down" - right?
Wrong.
In practice, that rarely happens due to a dearth of comeback mechanisms and general alien higher lifeform steamrolling post-3rd hive. This may be a "soft timer" by definition, but it's pretty much a hard timer in practice. Exceptions exist, of course, but they're just that: exceptions.
This combined with the fact that nano is such a useful hold (and yet is reasonably assailable from system waypointing, west junction, or east junction) probably contributes to the map's popularity.
Unfortunately, it's also one of the worst maps when it comes to dealing with marine turtle fests simply due to control's geometry. Oh well.
This thread's premise is false. That said, here's a consideration:
With regard to pub perception (especially among less experienced players), veil is one of the more "honest" maps if you consider the fact that the game is basically over once aliens get the 3rd hive.
Why? Since veil only has 4 tech points, marines rarely labor under the pretension that they aren't completely borked once aliens get the 3rd. On other maps, the presence of 5 tech points creates the impression that a 2/3 (marine/alien) tech point split positions the marines to reasonably anticipate a comeback. After all, they're only "one tech point down" - right?
Wrong.
In practice, that rarely happens due to a dearth of comeback mechanisms and general alien higher lifeform steamrolling post-3rd hive. This may be a "soft timer" by definition, but it's pretty much a hard timer in practice. Exceptions exist, of course, but they're just that: exceptions.
This combined with the fact that nano is such a useful hold (and yet is reasonably assailable from system waypointing, west junction, or east junction) probably contributes to the map's popularity.
Unfortunately, it's also one of the worst maps when it comes to dealing with marine turtle fests simply due to control's geometry. Oh well.
Out of the best maps in the game, veil being one of them, it's my least favorite. This is because you get those really slow moving games where marines sit on phase gates and onos have trouble being effective. You do though get some crazy good games on veil. 4 tech points does seem to work well in this game. I think Mineral and Veil are 2 of the 4 best maps in the game (jambi and tram being the others) and they both have 4 tech points. Not even sure Jambi needs the 5th tech point in the middle. Tram might be the only map that is great and needs 5 tech points with it's current set up. Perhaps that should be the exception. I would like to see summit's middle of the map re-worked and remove the middle tech point (would also like to see changes to crevice and ventilation). Maybe NS1 had it right - 3 possible hive locations and a starting marine base.
Comments
Because Tram, Biodome, Descent and Jambi are arguably more balanced... Veil is alien favored in the same way that summit is marine favored... but with pub play as it is at the moment, alien players are more often than not clueless, so they struggle more. Simply put, in low skill scenarios, yes, veil is balanced, but its balanced because the aliens can't play very well, not because the map itself is a balanced map.
Perhaps and I'mma let you finish, but Junction and Rockdown were some of the best maps of all time
And TBH, I believe summit still runs circles around all of em for overall layout design
Well, the wagon wheel is the easiest way of making an ns2 map balanced. Summit is arguable the "purest" ns2 map there is.
I like 'em all, except eclipse, and I'm also kind of fed up with veil at this point. It's overplayed.
obviously this only relates to balanced teams. so you comming and saying veil is the only good map or the most balanced map or anything like this is just plain wrong as there is more aspects on what scenarios a map feels balanced or not.
BUT THEN AGAIN!!!
We could've gone the way of, IF aliens spawn here, we get more alien stuff (obstructions/vents) and for marines better lighting and longer lines of sight. Areas near the MS and Hive could also get gradually more marine and alien friendly and the central neutral areas could be just that.
NS1.0+ >_> I bet Spark would have a stroke if this was done though
Maps should have just been procedurally generated. It's all the rage these days.
For those that don't want to click the link, here is a little bit from there.
All games map popularity, team win rates, team percentage of kills, and team percentage of Tres mined.
With regard to pub perception (especially among less experienced players), veil is one of the more "honest" maps if you consider the fact that the game is basically over once aliens get the 3rd hive.
Why? Since veil only has 4 tech points, marines rarely labor under the pretension that they aren't completely borked once aliens get the 3rd. On other maps, the presence of 5 tech points creates the impression that a 2/3 (marine/alien) tech point split positions the marines to reasonably anticipate a comeback. After all, they're only "one tech point down" - right?
Wrong.
In practice, that rarely happens due to a dearth of comeback mechanisms and general alien higher lifeform steamrolling post-3rd hive. This may be a "soft timer" by definition, but it's pretty much a hard timer in practice. Exceptions exist, of course, but they're just that: exceptions.
This combined with the fact that nano is such a useful hold (and yet is reasonably assailable from system waypointing, west junction, or east junction) probably contributes to the map's popularity.
Unfortunately, it's also one of the worst maps when it comes to dealing with marine turtle fests simply due to control's geometry. Oh well.
I submit to you the dilemma of zero hives
Out of the best maps in the game, veil being one of them, it's my least favorite. This is because you get those really slow moving games where marines sit on phase gates and onos have trouble being effective. You do though get some crazy good games on veil. 4 tech points does seem to work well in this game. I think Mineral and Veil are 2 of the 4 best maps in the game (jambi and tram being the others) and they both have 4 tech points. Not even sure Jambi needs the 5th tech point in the middle. Tram might be the only map that is great and needs 5 tech points with it's current set up. Perhaps that should be the exception. I would like to see summit's middle of the map re-worked and remove the middle tech point (would also like to see changes to crevice and ventilation). Maybe NS1 had it right - 3 possible hive locations and a starting marine base.
Let's get down to the rock into the junction of the mapping kingdom, while we watch the veil pass over like an eclipse on the summit
Yeah. You should be jailed caged.
Ayu kiddin' mi?