Trello: Remove Alien Weapon Switching

2

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  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    .trixX. wrote: »
    @Bicsum being able to equip either welder or axe with be really useful.
    But the press for X seconds differentiation would be bad during engagements

    It would be like 100 ms or something and you could bind what you want on 3 press.
    Post edited by Bicsum on
  • .trixX..trixX. Budapest Join Date: 2007-10-11 Member: 62605Members Posts: 806 Advanced user
    Maybe... although the average response time for visual queues is around 300ms. Sure, hold-to-switch is not the same, but shorter than 500ms could be hard to master (hidden mechanic alert! :D)
    NO Cyril, when they're dead they're just hookers!
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 2,679 Advanced user
    I really wish we had the half life styled weapon roulette selection menu (with quick switch option) for marines.

    Sb3BXHq.png
    Yojimbo.trixX.
  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester Posts: 2,689 admin
    This feature is currently not being worked on but if I ever have the time, I do intend to provide a "legacy" controls option.
    [ Rek | Reklys | remedy | remi.D | blu.knight | Psyke | Sky ]
    I have way too many names.
    NordicDC_DarklingIronHorse
  • barniebarnie Join Date: 2016-07-26 Member: 220695Members Posts: 46 Advanced user
    guess i'm not retiring my autohotkey one button parasites/metabolizes anytime soon then.
    It IS a massive QOL boost for me.

    But thanks for communicating remi, keep it up.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    remove metabolize then bring back shadowstep #makefadegreatagain
    barniehalfofaheavenVetinariThe_Welsh_WizardDC_DarklingKasharicHandschuh.trixX.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    @RevanCorana that disagree needs some explaining so here goes.
    I dislike metabolise with a passion. Did in ns1, do in ns2.
    I loved having shadowstep AND blink. They were different and had different uses in mind. (instant short range intercept anyone?)

    So why vote disagree?
    There were issued with shadowstep. I do not remember which ones, I shall be fair.. but I was annoyed about it by a large factor and had been poking every PT, CDT and dev who was remotely in my friends list back there.
    There were, sadly, reasons.

    Im sure some of them wont mind explaining which those reasons are.. I just truly forgot. :(


    If we COULD manage to do it without any issues, then I am for. :D
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  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    @RevanCorana that disagree needs some explaining so here goes.
    I dislike metabolise with a passion. Did in ns1, do in ns2.
    I loved having shadowstep AND blink. They were different and had different uses in mind. (instant short range intercept anyone?)

    So why vote disagree?
    There were issued with shadowstep. I do not remember which ones, I shall be fair.. but I was annoyed about it by a large factor and had been poking every PT, CDT and dev who was remotely in my friends list back there.
    There were, sadly, reasons.

    Im sure some of them wont mind explaining which those reasons are.. I just truly forgot. :(


    If we COULD manage to do it without any issues, then I am for. :D

    Shadow step was too easy to use. It did not require any skill or planning what so ever.

    You hit the shadow step + jump and were at max speed. For the marines it was too hard to counter for an 1 click ability.
    It wasn't impossible, but the skill requirements were out of proportion. This was very noticable in competitive play back then, where aliens dominated in lower divs.
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    the thing is metabolize is a boring timer mechanic almost pure shift spam, at least shadowstep diversify the gameplay, if it's too op they could nerf it somehow OR bring something completely new but I think metab needs to go it's unintuitive boring adds unnecessary complexity.
    VetinariFrozenbarnietwiliteblue
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 153 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    Bicsum wrote: »
    Shadow step was too easy to use. It did not require any skill or planning what so ever.

    You hit the shadow step + jump and were at max speed. For the marines it was too hard to counter for an 1 click ability.
    It wasn't impossible, but the skill requirements were out of proportion. This was very noticable in competitive play back then, where aliens dominated in lower divs.

    Not sure if they are talking about the original shadowstep or about the last iteration of it that we had.
    Original Shadowstep was the main movement of the Fade and allowed you to keep the momentum gained during the shadowstep by just jumping (and we had double-jump back then)

    Some time later Fades became essentially what we have today, but instead of researching metabolize we had this second type of shadowstep, which didn't allow you to keep any momentum from it. (Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlyTJ-5ongk&t=108s)

    I don't remember the details, but I do remember than during that time shadowstep was researched as often as Stab it is today... at least in pubs.

    Maybe I am forgetting something, I don't know
    BicsumNordic
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,447 Advanced user
    Blrg wrote: »
    Bicsum wrote: »
    Shadow step was too easy to use. It did not require any skill or planning what so ever.

    You hit the shadow step + jump and were at max speed. For the marines it was too hard to counter for an 1 click ability.
    It wasn't impossible, but the skill requirements were out of proportion. This was very noticable in competitive play back then, where aliens dominated in lower divs.

    Not sure if they are talking about the original shadowstep or about the last iteration of it that we had.
    Original Shadowstep was the main movement of the Fade and allowed you to keep the momentum gained during the shadowstep by just jumping (and we had double-jump back then)

    Some time later Fades became essentially what we have today, but instead of researching metabolize we had this second type of shadowstep, which didn't allow you to keep any momentum from it. (Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlyTJ-5ongk&t=108s)

    I don't remember the details, but I do remember than during that time shadowstep was researched as often as Stab it is today... at least in pubs.

    Maybe I am forgetting something, I don't know

    Yeah it was fairly useless except for really high level players that found ways to use it.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver Posts: 4,381 Advanced user
    it wasnt fairly useless for low skilled folk.
    The instant intercept was a godsend for low skilled folk to catch jp.
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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver Posts: 3,447 Advanced user
    it wasnt fairly useless for low skilled folk.
    The instant intercept was a godsend for low skilled folk to catch jp.

    I admit that my memory may be faulty. I'm not a fade expert.
    formerly known as F0rdPrefect

    I am good Onos
  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members Posts: 571 Advanced user
    Blrg wrote: »
    Bicsum wrote: »
    Shadow step was too easy to use. It did not require any skill or planning what so ever.

    You hit the shadow step + jump and were at max speed. For the marines it was too hard to counter for an 1 click ability.
    It wasn't impossible, but the skill requirements were out of proportion. This was very noticable in competitive play back then, where aliens dominated in lower divs.

    Not sure if they are talking about the original shadowstep or about the last iteration of it that we had.
    Original Shadowstep was the main movement of the Fade and allowed you to keep the momentum gained during the shadowstep by just jumping (and we had double-jump back then)

    Some time later Fades became essentially what we have today, but instead of researching metabolize we had this second type of shadowstep, which didn't allow you to keep any momentum from it. (Edit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlyTJ-5ongk&t=108s)

    I don't remember the details, but I do remember than during that time shadowstep was researched as often as Stab it is today... at least in pubs.

    Maybe I am forgetting something, I don't know

    Yeah it was fairly useless except for really high level players that found ways to use it.

    Now that I think about it stab hasnt been updated since they removed shadowstep has it?
    stab was intended to work in conjonction with shadowstep
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 4,678 Advanced user
    I remember the competitive players telling me that the old shadowstep was just too strong, and too accessible, so that every player could be a good fade. In hindsight, this is funny because now the devs are trying to make the game more accessible.
    From my perspective UWE has been trying to both with what little resources they have given to the game. They don't have an AAA budget, let alone an indie game budget. They have the budget of a game that has been out 6 years. I want to say, don't half ass two things, whole ass one thing. I just don't think they have the resources to do it. Unlike many of the people on the forums, I guess I am just happy they are at least trying even though I may not like what they end up doing.
    2cough.trixX.twiliteblue
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    Yeah, but there was not much too improve on.

    Shadowstep still kind of exists in the form of blinking when you're close to the ground. It gives you a small speed boost you can do it in any horizontal direction, if you use your mouse (Maybe this mechanic should also be explained somewhere). This makes the new blink more versatile and fun compared to the old shadowstep+blink, because you can use in different ways and improve on it.

    I think the fade is currently one of the easiest life forms to learn. The gorge seems easier. The onos is also easy to learn, but it requres a lot of expirience to not die while being effective.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,475 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    Nordic wrote: »
    I remember the competitive players telling me that the old shadowstep was just too strong, and too accessible, so that every player could be a good fade. In hindsight, this is funny because now the devs are trying to make the game more accessible.

    Nah, it was just ridiculous to kill shadowstep fades. The only way they ever got hit or died was if they messed up and hit a wall or something. There's nothing wrong with being punished for messing up, but:

    Now we have a system where you're punished for messing up still, but marines actually have a chance of dealing damage to you when you're just playing really well. Which is why fades are rather underpowered in comp. They don't really function alone at a highest level vs shotguns without lerk spikes coming down.
    Bicsum wrote: »
    The onos is also easy to learn, but it requres a lot of expirience to not die while being effective.

    I disagree, it takes very little experience, mostly just hihh accuracy. Most people play it very wrong. All you need to do is kill people to reduce enemy DPS and your team will role through. So when someone says "don't kill people hit the phase gate," they're fucking wrong. That's how to die and not work toward ending the game.
    mattji104
    Bicsum
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    Frozen wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    I remember the competitive players telling me that the old shadowstep was just too strong, and too accessible, so that every player could be a good fade. In hindsight, this is funny because now the devs are trying to make the game more accessible.

    Nah, it was just ridiculous to kill shadowstep fades. The only way they ever got hit or died was if they messed up and hit a wall or something. There's nothing wrong with being punished for messing up, but:

    Now we have a system where you're punished for messing up still, but marines actually have a chance of dealing damage to you when you're just playing really well. Which is why fades are rather underpowered in comp. They don't really function alone at a highest level vs shotguns without lerk spikes coming down.
    Agree for this part.
    Frozen wrote: »
    Bicsum wrote: »
    The onos is also easy to learn, but it requres a lot of expirience to not die while being effective.

    I disagree, it takes very little experience, mostly just hihh accuracy. Most people play it very wrong. All you need to do is kill people to reduce enemy DPS and your team will role through. So when someone says "don't kill people hit the phase gate," they're **** wrong. That's how to die and not work toward ending the game.
    Thats what I meant. You need game expirience to make the right decisions as onos. I don't know about your phase gate situation, but I think that is situational.
    Some onos players are chasing single jetpackers in a pg rush, while there are other life forms in the room to kill him. The onos should block the phase gate to deny phasing marines in this situation.
  • WebtranceWebtrance US Join Date: 2013-11-08 Member: 189165Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 62 Advanced user
    I have to chime in.

    At the very least, just give us one button for the parasite function and you're done. Parasite would not be a scroll-able weapon but an assigned hotkey. For example, my mouse (Corsair RGB) setup would be: left click bite, right leap, top left parasite, thumb button slow walk. I crouch with left shift actually and I'm normally crouching the whole time as skulk unless climbing walls or clinging. You could even assign the down mouse click or mouse wheel up as parasite. Mouse wheel down would be left to scroll between bite and Zeno.

    I'm not sure what can be done about the marine welder, but I have done this in the past: Hold forward thumb button to bring out the welder and start welding. Then release forward thumb button to return to wep 1 (rifle/shotgun). Even when holding the "auto weld" forward thumb button, you can use your assigned "drop weapon" key to drop the welder. This also works to "auto axe." At any rate, I normally just click 3 on my keyboard to bring out my axe or welder because I'm used to it. But there's got to be easier ways to manage weapons, especially gorge.

    One more thing, I've been using my closest thumb button as my "build and reload" key since I started playing NS2. For example, assign L to USE and L Reload in NS2 bindings. Then just assign a button on your mouse to be the letter L. One button works for both. Now, if your facing anything that requires building or the armory, this one key will build or access the armory. To reload, it's the same key...you just have to make sure your not standing next to and looking at any buildable structure when you try to reload. It actually works fine - at least for me it does.

    Cheers!
    remi
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members Posts: 1,168 Advanced user
    This would be great for most lifeforms. The only potential problem is gorge bile, which is basically an alternative attack. I do not want to have to mash keyboard keys to spam bile. Maybe if you have one of those pimped out mice it won't be a problem, but lots of people dont and I bet most people will not want to take their fingers off the movement keys because you can no longer use bile via m1.
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 688 Advanced user
    This would be great for most lifeforms.

    Sorry but no... And this is why I'm praying if a feature this awful goes in that it will be an option...

    For me this would make playing every life form much MUCH more difficult.. Especially using skills in a heated battle. Having to hit 2 to para, or hit 2 to use boneshield... Or worse having to hit 3 every time I wanted to use stomp... It's just so extremely bad

    For a game where you use your mouse and click to move that control scheme is great, but not when you need to move with wasd...

  • RautapalliRautapalli Join Date: 2010-07-23 Member: 72710Members, Reinforced - Shadow Posts: 151 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    This would be great for most lifeforms.

    Sorry but no... And this is why I'm praying if a feature this awful goes in that it will be an option...

    For me this would make playing every life form much MUCH more difficult.. Especially using skills in a heated battle. Having to hit 2 to para, or hit 2 to use boneshield... Or worse having to hit 3 every time I wanted to use stomp... It's just so extremely bad

    For a game where you use your mouse and click to move that control scheme is great, but not when you need to move with wasd...
    Do you also switch to metabolize manually and use mouse 1 to use it? I find the direct bind to be much easier to use, which is how this change should be implemented. Just add more key binding options that let you use skills with one button. Why would stomp move to 3? It's already a skill that doesn't use weapon switching, it'll be on whatever key/button you bind it to. You seem to be confused what this change is about.
    FrozenHandschuh
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation Posts: 1,475 Advanced user
    I'm pretty annoyed by most things that aren't available to select and fire with m1. I can live with movement abilities on shift ctrl caps but thats about it.

    I'd be much better at overwatch if i was able to select my abilities and fire with mouse1. I just can't aim the same the way, it feels unnatural for me
    mattji104
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members Posts: 688 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    Rautapalli wrote: »
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    This would be great for most lifeforms.

    Sorry but no... And this is why I'm praying if a feature this awful goes in that it will be an option...

    For me this would make playing every life form much MUCH more difficult.. Especially using skills in a heated battle. Having to hit 2 to para, or hit 2 to use boneshield... Or worse having to hit 3 every time I wanted to use stomp... It's just so extremely bad

    For a game where you use your mouse and click to move that control scheme is great, but not when you need to move with wasd...
    Do you also switch to metabolize manually and use mouse 1 to use it? I find the direct bind to be much easier to use, which is how this change should be implemented. Just add more key binding options that let you use skills with one button. Why would stomp move to 3? It's already a skill that doesn't use weapon switching, it'll be on whatever key/button you bind it to. You seem to be confused what this change is about.

    No I'm not confused what it's about.. I'm just stating that it needs to be optional to use..

    For some of us having to hit additional keys in combat is much harder than simply rolling the mouse wheel a click or two..

    And meta doesn't make a good example because it's bound to the default sprint button for most fps games (shift) Say this change ends up being forced.. What would you bind boneshield to? You cant use shift, or e, or q... 2 and 3 are too hard to hit while moving, can't use f or x or c... I don't think z does anything but it's kind of hard to hit also...

    Well IF you have an expensive mouse with extra buttons you could map to those.. But not everyone does, and expensive peripherals shouldn't be required... So can't count those..

    See the problem? It just needs to be optional.
    Vetinari
  • snbsnb Join Date: 2006-11-09 Member: 58499Members Posts: 37 Fully active user
    You're using the mouse wheel to change weapons mid-engagement?! What are you, some kind of mouse wizard?
    BicsumVetinari
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold Posts: 1,014 Advanced user
    edited August 2016
    snb wrote: »
    You're using the mouse wheel to change weapons mid-engagement?! What are you, some kind of mouse wizard?

    You think that is impressive? Well, I use a gearbox shifter to switch weapons..

    th8-rs-shifter.jpg
    lenny face
    The_Welsh_WizardVetinariNordic.trixX.
  • sensen Join Date: 2015-06-06 Member: 205292Members Posts: 22 Fully active user
    edited August 2016
    Rautapalli wrote: »
    Do you also switch to metabolize manually and use mouse 1 to use it?

    @Rautapalli, it depends. If I'm going to use metabolize multiple times in a row, especially for healing with advanced, then I will switch to weapon 2 because I can just hold down mouse1 and it will work repeatedly. If I'm just going to use it once or twice then I'll hit shift. If shift could be held down instead of needing a new press each time then I'd probably just stick with that.

    FrozenIronHorse
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts Posts: 8,181 admin
    Honestly, regarding the impact of such a change.. I don't think I'd find it useful outside of parasite, lerk spikes, throwing grenades.
    Too often I accidentally switch weapons when I didn't mean to and I then switch back.. accidentally bile bombing etc. instead of just swapping to it would take precious energy / remove the surprise in store.
    QUOTE (Techercizer @ Feb 3 2012, 10:47 AM) »
    Every time you ask for troubleshooting without providing system info, ATI adds a rendering bug for an upcoming game.

    When you feel you need to be rude or angry about a game, just read these links and remember what role you are playing:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Online_disinhibition_effect
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  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members Posts: 1,168 Advanced user
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    This would be great for most lifeforms.

    Sorry but no... And this is why I'm praying if a feature this awful goes in that it will be an option...

    For me this would make playing every life form much MUCH more difficult.. Especially using skills in a heated battle. Having to hit 2 to para, or hit 2 to use boneshield... Or worse having to hit 3 every time I wanted to use stomp... It's just so extremely bad

    For a game where you use your mouse and click to move that control scheme is great, but not when you need to move with wasd...

    It should definitely be an option, no question about it. I would like the option to switch your m2 weapons in the exact same way you switch m1 weapons. So for example you could switch m2 to boneshield, or to spores from spikes and back depending on the situation.
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members Posts: 254 Advanced user
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