Lost about 380 hive score on server with bots

SendzSendz In-game alias: Psychlone Join Date: 2008-02-13 Member: 63645Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Joined a game this morning that had one person in it, so it also included bots because of the new update (I think it was 6 v 6). Jumped on Marines and saw that there was no commander so I went in, all the bots were out of position so I got out of the chair to build the robo factory, got rushed and lost. I went from 1395 hive score to 1011 hive score in a match that I only played about 1 minute in.
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Comments

  • remiremi remedy [blu.knight] Join Date: 2003-11-18 Member: 23112Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester
    Thanks for the report. We will take a look at this.
  • SendzSendz In-game alias: Psychlone Join Date: 2008-02-13 Member: 63645Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Thanks. Let me know if you need any more information.
  • StardogStardog Join Date: 2004-10-25 Member: 32448Members
    edited July 2016
    How about not reducing hive score when losing? You're not any less skilled than before you played that match.
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
    you can easily lose 800 skill points as I reported before.
    The problem probably is that the system considers that you lost against 0 players.

    I love your updates but you should have fixed this known bug before releasing bots everywhere (and I say this being one of the few supporters of bots for seeding servers)
  • KeatsKeats United States Join Date: 2014-11-04 Member: 199413Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    @Stardog If you got worse, conceivably your Hive score should be lower to reflect that. When do you propose it be lowered, if not after a loss?
  • StardogStardog Join Date: 2004-10-25 Member: 32448Members
    Keats wrote: »
    @Stardog If you got worse, conceivably your Hive score should be lower to reflect that. When do you propose it be lowered, if not after a loss?
    When your individual stats are worse.

    You'd rate Griezmann lower because France lost the final of Euro 2016? It makes zero sense.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Well it is not a skill rating, but elo. It works like that, but I agree that the system is not very suitable for NS2.
  • KeatsKeats United States Join Date: 2014-11-04 Member: 199413Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Stardog wrote: »
    Keats wrote: »
    @Stardog If you got worse, conceivably your Hive score should be lower to reflect that. When do you propose it be lowered, if not after a loss?
    When your individual stats are worse.
    How do you measure individual stats if not with Hive skill? As it stands you have answered the question of "When should Hive skill be lowered?" with "When my Hive skill is lowered."
  • lhooqlhooq 666 Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210940Members
    Keats wrote: »
    Stardog wrote: »
    Keats wrote: »
    @Stardog If you got worse, conceivably your Hive score should be lower to reflect that. When do you propose it be lowered, if not after a loss?
    When your individual stats are worse.
    How do you measure individual stats if not with Hive skill? As it stands you have answered the question of "When should Hive skill be lowered?" with "When my Hive skill is lowered."


    I think he is talking about going from one of the other numbers hive records, like k/d. I lowered my elo by 1000 since reading this post. Thanks guys.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Stardog wrote: »
    How about not reducing hive score when losing? You're not any less skilled than before you played that match.
    But, statistically speaking, there is a certain probability that you are less skilled than your ELO scoring would suggest, so it adjusts. And when you win, the opposite is true.
    The ELO number will constantly be changing but should be fluctuating around a certain point that is likely to be a good estimate of your skill level.
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Don't start this again.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    @Therius somebody has to fight the misconceptions of the laymen!
    Yes, its exhausting but somehow... I can't help myself! D:
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    @Therius somebody has to fight the misconceptions of the laymen!
    Yes, its exhausting but somehow... I can't help myself! D:

    Where we're you the last 10 threads about it?
  • StardogStardog Join Date: 2004-10-25 Member: 32448Members
    The ELO number will constantly be changing but should be fluctuating around a certain point that is likely to be a good estimate of your skill level.
    Skill level at what?
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Nordic wrote: »
    @Therius somebody has to fight the misconceptions of the laymen!
    Yes, its exhausting but somehow... I can't help myself! D:

    Where were you the last 10 threads about it?
    Patiently clicking 'agree' on the posts that demonstrate some common sense and knowledge of statistics (in between tearing my hair out reading the rest of them). Pretty sure I made a few posts when it was needed.
    Stardog wrote: »
    The ELO number will constantly be changing but should be fluctuating around a certain point that is likely to be a good estimate of your skill level.
    Skill level at what?
    Chess
  • NousWandererNousWanderer Join Date: 2010-05-07 Member: 71646Members
    Stardog wrote: »
    Skill level at what?
    Your skill at being on a team that wins.

  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    team stacking skills ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
  • StardogStardog Join Date: 2004-10-25 Member: 32448Members
    Stardog wrote: »
    Skill level at what?
    Your skill at being on a team that wins.
    team stacking skills ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
    Exactly.
  • SendzSendz In-game alias: Psychlone Join Date: 2008-02-13 Member: 63645Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Hive score should be based on game statistics and not on wins/losses because right now according to hive score, winning is all that matters. I think it would be better to have a system in place that rewards players for their performance that can be tracked via points (based on something like the in-game points you receive for kills, building stuff, healing, welding players, etc...).

    Just a bit of brainstorming for potential outcomes of a system like this:

    Negatives:
    - people getting more agro about kill stealing ( then again, as long as you participate in the kill, you still get points)
    - more people than necessary might volunteer to build to get the pts
    - ???? feel free to comment to add more

    Positives:
    - less quitters/raging on a team
    - promotes more cooperation (because they're rewarded for it outside of the match itself)
    - less team switching mid-game (although I haven't seen too much of this)
    - ???? feel free to comment to add more

    Unsure:
    - I don't know if this will have much of an effect on team stacking though because good players might just stack to play on the same team as a friend or just stay on on team only out of preference/being more skilled on that team.
    - not sure if I remember correctly or not, but I think the commanders don't get points so this would need to be changed or reviewed.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited July 2016
    Rofl kill stealing? Are you sure you are talking about NS2 here?

    We should also take a look at the spawn camping problem.
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    Sendz wrote: »
    Hive score should be based on game statistics and not on wins/losses

    I've said this many times before, but don't waste your breath.

    No matter how much sense it makes, Nordic will be in here soon with a bunch of graphs, numbers, calculations, and other college level mathematics to "prove" that everything is all inclusive in the almighty win/loss statistic... Winning is the only thing that matters...

    You could have an average kdr of 15+.. get 200+ kills in a single game and only die 3-5 times at most... You could kill 20+ extractors/harvesters, and single handedly keep the other team from doing anything all game... Then your commander fails to beacon a rush (or hell he just recycles) and costs you the game... Guess what? Hive score goes down! Makes sense right?


    My hive score has been as low as 700 and as high as 2000... I've seen people worse than I am with over 3k, I've seen people who should have 3-4k with less than 1k...

    With any luck Hive 2.0 will be better, though it will still be purely win/loss based so....

  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    The fact that you don't understand the graphs, don't understand how to make them, don't understand how to use them, don't understand what information they contain and don't understand the mathematics behind the system doesn't mean that they're not true and correct. You can keep living in denial while people who have actually dedicated their time to understand it all collectively facepalm at your posts.
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    edited July 2016
    Therius wrote: »
    The fact that you don't understand the graphs, don't understand how to make them, don't understand how to use them, don't understand what information they contain and don't understand the mathematics behind the system doesn't mean that they're not true and correct. You can keep living in denial while people who have actually dedicated their time to understand it all collectively facepalm at your posts.

    Yep I was never good at math, and don't have them fancy college book learnins...

    Because you totally need to understand math to realize something is broken when you see a player with 3+ kdr dominating the **** out of everyone in every game and they have a lower hive score than I do...
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    ns2stats back in the day had a very comprehensive compilation of all players who used ns2stats servers and their ranking system was ridiculously accurate
    maybe because they could separate alien/marine field/comm
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    Wob wrote: »
    ns2stats back in the day had a very comprehensive compilation of all players who used ns2stats servers and their ranking system was ridiculously accurate
    maybe because they could separate alien/marine field/comm

    Just out of curiosity.. was NS2stats based purely off win/loss and nothing else?
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Because you totally need to understand math to realize something is broken when you see a player with 3+ kdr dominating the **** out of everyone in every game and they have a lower hive score than I do...

    Refer to the second sentence of my previous post.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2016
    I saw Sendz comment and could've responded to it before you did. I had no reason to respond to Sendz comment. Adding other skill factors is a possible option. He didn't say anything that sounded ignorantly wrong. Then I get called out by you, Mofo, who continues to wrongly say what I think. Being Mofo, nothing I say will mean anything to you. Why should I bother correcting you? I don't know how to communicate in a way that you will understand.

    But, I could not seem to not respond to this one.
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Because you totally need to understand math to realize something is broken when you see a player with 3+ kdr dominating the **** out of everyone in every game and they have a lower hive score than I do...
    It is not that you need to understand math to realize something is broken. You actually do not. There is a problem and you and I both see it is there. You are just laying the blame in the wrong places. This is what I spend more time that I really should be explaining. Mofo, you understand that there is a problem. Math is not needed. What you do not understand is the problem. Math is still not needed. I use statistics, math, graphs, etc to show what the problem is, and what it is not. Yet you still do not understand.

    Just because something makes sense, it does not make it true. From our perspective on earth it looks as if the sun revolves around us. It does go in an arc in the sky. It only makes sense that the sun revolves around the earth.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    I advocate for additional points to be factored, like the in game score points.... but only to get someone out of rookie mode / get their accurate hive score sooner.
    If it's still used after Level 5, it has potential for abuse! In particular, it can be farmed.

    This is the entire premise behind recording only wins and losses.. (in fact the thread that moultano made for it was called "Proposal for abuse-proof skill system.")

    This is because you'd have to weight the system appropriately - it already is in some respects, like getting an assist vs a kill - and in doing so it clearly highlights which actions provide the most points, or which provide the easiest points. They will then always be prioritized / farmed.

    If dropping a medpack on marines gives me +3 score points, I will bankrupt my team to increase my own level.
    If building structures gives me safe and easy points, I will be hanging out near base all round.
    Killing boosts my level more than anything? Cool, I'll always be baiting my teammates and egglocking / waiting for spawning aliens without wanting to finish the round.
  • SendzSendz In-game alias: Psychlone Join Date: 2008-02-13 Member: 63645Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    IronHorse wrote: »
    If dropping a medpack on marines gives me +3 score points, I will bankrupt my team to increase my own level.
    If building structures gives me safe and easy points, I will be hanging out near base all round.
    Killing boosts my level more than anything? Cool, I'll always be baiting my teammates and egglocking / waiting for spawning aliens without wanting to finish the round.

    I suggested brainstorming to iron out details like that so you can create a system that works and can hardly be exploited. I can understand how it wouldn't make sense to have a system that just kept adding points because it would be hard to tell the skill level of the player. Maybe have some sort of point average based system that increases or decreases based on your performance compared to prior performance? Again, I want to be clear when I say I am purely throwing ideas around without any testing or evidence I just want to get a discussion going on how to improve the game that is already great in my mind.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    IronHorse wrote: »
    I advocate for additional points to be factored, like the in game score points.... but only to get someone out of rookie mode / get their accurate hive score sooner.
    If it's still used after Level 5, it has potential for abuse! In particular, it can be farmed.

    This is the entire premise behind recording only wins and losses.. (in fact the thread that moultano made for it was called "Proposal for abuse-proof skill system.")

    This is because you'd have to weight the system appropriately - it already is in some respects, like getting an assist vs a kill - and in doing so it clearly highlights which actions provide the most points, or which provide the easiest points. They will then always be prioritized / farmed.

    If dropping a medpack on marines gives me +3 score points, I will bankrupt my team to increase my own level.
    If building structures gives me safe and easy points, I will be hanging out near base all round.
    Killing boosts my level more than anything? Cool, I'll always be baiting my teammates and egglocking / waiting for spawning aliens without wanting to finish the round.

    That is true, but how is it any different to the already existing KDR farming?
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