I'd rather a compensating buff occur to the marines' ability to deal with increased lifeforms, than to have a more unforgiving game.
Everyone here recognizes the importance of improving that learning curve, yet something that assists with that but comes with a consequence creates a knee jerk reaction with calls to revert it in lieu of attempting to balance it?
I think what we are seeing is the result of a rapid iteration cycle, where consequences to balance changes can't always be predicted perfectly nor always adequately tested with a small sample size, and you therefore have to adjust very quickly to said consequences. (sometimes in real time over a weekend, as has been done before recently) Hopefully the development cycle slows down, going forward.
But how about suggestions on how to balance the Pres changes without undoing them? (keeping in mind Marines do get some benefit from that change as well)
Add another gamemode where people can try out lifeforms faster (see combat...). Win win.
Any server op can run Last Stand, which is not too dissimilar in that regard?
When we buff everything as much as possible, game is clearly better then right?
No. The only solution to the BAD and UNBALANCED pres change is to revert that BAD and UNBALANCED change. Stop the policy please that you want change things only to compensate for Bad patches. Instead stop making Bad patches. It is so easy.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2016
That's pretty shortsighted and unhelpful. I think just Deck's post alone highlights this perfectly.. but I get you still rather just say revert because it's easier than coming up with suggestions.
When lerk spores were changed recently and they were useless people didn't shout "revert it" .. they suggested fixes (myself included) to get it to a better place.
When the HMG was introduced to comp mod was it immediately balanced? No.. it took quite a long time to get it to a good place, all the while people like yourself were calling for it to be removed instead.
There are thousands of examples like these..
As much as you don't like it, sometimes a balance change can be met with a compensating balance change and work just fine.
There are benefits and downsides to this recent change (just like the ones mentioned above) .. your time is better spent providing suggestions on how to alleviate said downsides like Deck just did.
That's pretty shortsighted and unhelpful. I think just Deck's post alone highlights this perfectly.. but I get you still rather just say revert because it's easier than coming up with suggestions.
When lerk spores were changed recently and they were useless people didn't shout "revert it" .. they suggested fixes (myself included) to get it to a better place.
When the HMG was introduced to comp mod was it immediately balanced? No.. it took quite a long time to get it to a good place, all the while people like yourself were calling for it to be removed instead.
There are thousands of examples like these..
As much as you don't like it, sometimes a balance change can be met with a compensating balance change and work just fine.
There are benefits and downsides to this recent change (just like the ones mentioned above) .. your time is better spent providing suggestions on how to alleviate said downsides like Deck just did.
That's pretty selective and revisionist. But I get you say keep it because its easier than admitting to a mistake.
You mean lerk spores were changed to crop duster, complained about, and eventually after a few years reverted to projectile right? The HMG example isn't a really good parallel either. They didn't change other things to compensate for the HMG being overpowered/underpowered. They changed the HMG to try and make it fit.
Lerks had bile bomb and was reverted. Feign death was tried for awhile. Crop duster spores were given up on recently. Despite all efforts, it never really worked. All the while people like yourself were calling for it to remain. There are thousands of examples like these!
As much as you hate to admit it, sometimes changes can be obvious failures. There are benefits and downsides to every change, but sometimes it is better to just revert.
Anyway, on a more serious note, the real problem is rapid iteration. All change is not good change and the stubborn insistence on not reverting any is compounding the issue. Sometimes it is better to go back to the drawing board or put it on hold until a more complete solution can be in place. Knee jerk changes tend to not help. I get that changes are made in the first place to solve perceived problems in the status quo and are thus necessary, but I am really perplexed at what seems to be providing a solution to the new problem created last week that results in a new solution next week to address the problem with the solution this week.
Why can't balance changes be tested as extensions first instead? Atmospheric lighting and NS2 tweaks should have proved that it works quite well?
*Not that I've played the game (and therefore many of the recent changes) for over a month though I do read the changelogs
Welsh, its not possible to not make bad patches without having extensive playtesting. That's just not happening. I think its been stated that NS2 is essentially in beta where the players are also playtesters as far as balance and game play is concerned. Only actual game breaking bugs get stopped.
IronHorseDeveloper, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributorJoin Date: 2010-05-08Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
edited July 2016
Ooh, well you read the change logs so that's good enough to form an experienced opinion from..
Yes some things have been reverted. Some things like bio mass and exos have been adjusted for years and years.
Speaking about the existence of one of these scenarios does not preclude the other from existing.
You warning of knee jerk reactions when calling to revert something you have admittedly not tried and that's been out for a short time is just rich.
There are benefits to this change. It would be nice to remedy the imbalance instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
But if it's too hard to come up with good ideas or suggestions I understand.. but in that case save the reversion talk until after the rest of us try at least one idea before scrapping it. It is not stubbornness to try ONE thing before reverting ffs
Lastly, I know you're the master at assumptions, but when it comes to what occurs internally you should really just hold your tongue as it's so embarrassingly uninformed that it's borderline misinformation.
I'd rather a compensating buff occur to the marines' ability to deal with increased lifeforms, than to have a more unforgiving game.
Everyone here recognizes the importance of improving that learning curve, yet something that assists with that but comes with a consequence creates a knee jerk reaction with calls to revert it in lieu of attempting to balance it?
I think what we are seeing is the result of a rapid iteration cycle, where consequences to balance changes can't always be predicted perfectly nor always adequately tested with a small sample size, and you therefore have to adjust very quickly to said consequences. (sometimes in real time over a weekend, as has been done before recently) Hopefully the development cycle slows down, going forward.
But how about suggestions on how to balance the Pres changes without undoing them? (keeping in mind Marines do get some benefit from that change as well)
Add another gamemode where people can try out lifeforms faster (see combat...). Win win.
Any server op can run Last Stand, which is not too dissimilar in that regard?
The problem is it seems to help aliens more (the pres change) especially on smaller servers - 7v7, 8v8. This is because if you're a good life form, now you can sometimes get your life form back even if you make a big mistake and get killed with no penalty. So you are back to dominating again. So yes, the marines are getting shot guns and stuff faster, but it's hard to kill a good life form without great shots around you. So I would suggest one of the following:
1) Change the pres flow depending on how many players are on a team. Less players = slower pres flow.
2) Or once you are a lerk/fade/onos, your pres flow would decrease. This way, if you lose your lifeform right away, you didn't have that much time of the decreased pres flow (helps rookies/inexperienced life forms), and if you were a lerk or fade for awhile before dying, the other team doesn't have to see you go lerk or fade right away (in theory) since your pres would slow way down.
I don't know why scaling Pres hasn't been done yet. I've always thought about that since the beginning. After killing a skilled Fade, he just comes back as a fade again and a struggling team never makes any headway.
A scaling Pres system would just have to make that skilled fade survive longer to "re-fade".
I'd rather a compensating buff occur to the marines' ability to deal with increased lifeforms, than to have a more unforgiving game.
Everyone here recognizes the importance of improving that learning curve, yet something that assists with that but comes with a consequence creates a knee jerk reaction with calls to revert it in lieu of attempting to balance it?
I think what we are seeing is the result of a rapid iteration cycle, where consequences to balance changes can't always be predicted perfectly nor always adequately tested with a small sample size, and you therefore have to adjust very quickly to said consequences. (sometimes in real time over a weekend, as has been done before recently) Hopefully the development cycle slows down, going forward.
But how about suggestions on how to balance the Pres changes without undoing them? (keeping in mind Marines do get some benefit from that change as well)
Add another gamemode where people can try out lifeforms faster (see combat...). Win win.
Any server op can run Last Stand, which is not too dissimilar in that regard?
The problem is it seems to help aliens more (the pres change) especially on smaller servers - 7v7, 8v8. This is because if you're a good life form, now you can sometimes get your life form back even if you make a big mistake and get killed with no penalty. So you are back to dominating again. So yes, the marines are getting shot guns and stuff faster, but it's hard to kill a good life form without great shots around you. So I would suggest one of the following:
1) Change the pres flow depending on how many players are on a team. Less players = slower pres flow.
2) Or once you are a lerk/fade/onos, your pres flow would decrease. This way, if you lose your lifeform right away, you didn't have that much time of the decreased pres flow (helps rookies/inexperienced life forms), and if you were a lerk or fade for awhile before dying, the other team doesn't have to see you go lerk or fade right away (in theory) since your pres would slow way down.
I don't know why scaling Pres hasn't been done yet. I've always thought about that since the beginning. After killing a skilled Fade, he just comes back as a fade again and a struggling team never makes any headway.
A scaling Pres system would just have to make that skilled fade survive longer to "re-fade".
Yeah I think it makes sense for a fade or lerk to have their pres slowed way down so the only way they could re-lerk or re-fade again is if they had all the res nodes or they were alive for a super long time (or they died right away and waited with the pres how it is now). There has to be more of a gap between re-lerking or re-fading for skilled players. If they want to keep the current pres flow increase, then this is the other option I see that could make for better games. Onos should probably have their pres slowed down too, but could possibly be slowed down less than a lerk or fade.
The other option could be to cap out the pres of a current lerk/fade/or onos with the slowed down pres. So basically how it could work is: you go lerk/fade/onos - but let's say a lerk caps out at 15 with slow pres so they have to wait before re-lerking. Fade would have slowed pres but would cap out at 25 or 30 so they would have to wait before re-fading. Onos could also have slowed pres with a 50 cap. This gives the marine team a chance to comeback and adds a different risk to choosing a life form. The risk is necessary to win, but there's a risk.
The problem with this option would be you are limiting yourself by going lerk because it would be harder to help the team by fading or going onos later in the game (unless you died early). So this idea might not work, but throwing it out there. Or you don't cap a lerk's pres you just slow it down so a lerk has a chance to do other things later in the game. Fades might be the most op'd part of the game in a pub anyways, so capping out a fade pres might make sense. This way, if you kill as skilled fade 10 min into the game or 20 min, you still have a chance once the fade goes down.
FrozenNew York, NYJoin Date: 2010-07-02Member: 72228Members, Constellation
Personally I consider the change in boneshield a nerf to boneshield. I couldn't take half the engagements I would have previously with boneshield.
It really just makes you heal faster so you can re-engage sooner. But that shit isn't true when people don't know how to position themselves as an onos in the first the place.
Most people are sooner to retreat that kill a DPS marine. 75% of the time it's better to kill 1/3 marines and keep fighting until 0/3 than to run from 3/3. Boneshield now won't save my ass unless the comm forgot to drop ammo.
Boneshield before let me time my bone shield with shotgun shots so i wouldn't spend too much energy and would have enough left to charge/engage/gore. Onos is left without tools to kill hmg in a skill matchup now. Ill still die with armor and no health.
yeah but how often is an onos dying now when retreating? It seems like there won't always be a ton of marines chasing an onos. The boneshield gives you your armor back which gives you a ton of hit points to live. Yes I guess your point about a full clip machine gun can kill you, but how often is that happening? It seems like the way boneshield is used in pubs, it's a huge op'd feature if used correctly now. It really depends on if an onos has boneshield and knows how to use it. Also I think in larger player servers you can counter it easier. It's really strong with a marine or two chasing you.
I'd rather a compensating buff occur to the marines' ability to deal with increased lifeforms, than to have a more unforgiving game.
Everyone here recognizes the importance of improving that learning curve, yet something that assists with that but comes with a consequence creates a knee jerk reaction with calls to revert it in lieu of attempting to balance it?
I think what we are seeing is the result of a rapid iteration cycle, where consequences to balance changes can't always be predicted perfectly nor always adequately tested with a small sample size, and you therefore have to adjust very quickly to said consequences. (sometimes in real time over a weekend, as has been done before recently) Hopefully the development cycle slows down, going forward.
But how about suggestions on how to balance the Pres changes without undoing them? (keeping in mind Marines do get some benefit from that change as well)
Add another gamemode where people can try out lifeforms faster (see combat...). Win win.
Any server op can run Last Stand, which is not too dissimilar in that regard?
The problem is it seems to help aliens more (the pres change) especially on smaller servers - 7v7, 8v8. This is because if you're a good life form, now you can sometimes get your life form back even if you make a big mistake and get killed with no penalty. So you are back to dominating again. So yes, the marines are getting shot guns and stuff faster, but it's hard to kill a good life form without great shots around you. So I would suggest one of the following:
1) Change the pres flow depending on how many players are on a team. Less players = slower pres flow.
2) Or once you are a lerk/fade/onos, your pres flow would decrease. This way, if you lose your lifeform right away, you didn't have that much time of the decreased pres flow (helps rookies/inexperienced life forms), and if you were a lerk or fade for awhile before dying, the other team doesn't have to see you go lerk or fade right away (in theory) since your pres would slow way down.
I don't know why scaling Pres hasn't been done yet. I've always thought about that since the beginning. After killing a skilled Fade, he just comes back as a fade again and a struggling team never makes any headway.
A scaling Pres system would just have to make that skilled fade survive longer to "re-fade".
Yeah I think it makes sense for a fade or lerk to have their pres slowed way down so the only way they could re-lerk or re-fade again is if they had all the res nodes or they were alive for a super long time (or they died right away and waited with the pres how it is now). There has to be more of a gap between re-lerking or re-fading for skilled players. If they want to keep the current pres flow increase, then this is the other option I see that could make for better games. Onos should probably have their pres slowed down too, but could possibly be slowed down less than a lerk or fade.
The other option could be to cap out the pres of a current lerk/fade/or onos with the slowed down pres. So basically how it could work is: you go lerk/fade/onos - but let's say a lerk caps out at 15 with slow pres so they have to wait before re-lerking. Fade would have slowed pres but would cap out at 25 or 30 so they would have to wait before re-fading. Onos could also have slowed pres with a 50 cap. This gives the marine team a chance to comeback and adds a different risk to choosing a life form. The risk is necessary to win, but there's a risk.
The problem with this option would be you are limiting yourself by going lerk because it would be harder to help the team by fading or going onos later in the game (unless you died early). So this idea might not work, but throwing it out there. Or you don't cap a lerk's pres you just slow it down so a lerk has a chance to do other things later in the game. Fades might be the most op'd part of the game in a pub anyways, so capping out a fade pres might make sense. This way, if you kill as skilled fade 10 min into the game or 20 min, you still have a chance once the fade goes down.
I think the idea about lower pres income can work and it could be tried. But no res caps. It would mean you don't get the advantage out of holding many RTs and successfully surviving with your lifeform.
As it is right now, when a player gets to the res cap of 100, the res is evenly split between the rest of the players. What if that same behavior continued, but with the per lifeform res cap. This might not solve the issue though. If the whole team has lifeforms at max cap, the remaining skulk would literally get all the pres.
Ooh, well you read the change logs so that's good enough to form an experienced opinion from..
Yes some things have been reverted. Some things like bio mass and exos have been adjusted for years and years.
Speaking about the existence of one of these scenarios does not preclude the other from existing.
You warning of knee jerk reactions when calling to revert something you have admittedly not tried and that's been out for a short time is just rich.
There are benefits to this change. It would be nice to remedy the imbalance instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
But if it's too hard to come up with good ideas or suggestions I understand.. but in that case save the reversion talk until after the rest of us try at least one idea before scrapping it. It is not stubbornness to try ONE thing before reverting ffs
Lastly, I know you're the master at assumptions, but when it comes to what occurs internally you should really just hold your tongue as it's so embarrassingly uninformed that it's borderline misinformation.
Yes it is. I can't tell you how well it plays, but it is fairly obvious what changes are in reaction to.
Edit - I was being general, but I did play the pres change.
You missed the point entirely. I was copying your argument. Glad you admit its bullshit hyperbole and cherry picking.
Lastly, I know you're the master of not addressing arguments, but you should really try to engage people instead of putting up strawmen and just saying what you want.
DC_DarklingJoin Date: 2003-07-10Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
Just WHAT are we arguing?
As stated before I am solid in the ballpark of saying aliens are OP atm. And much of this is due to changes. But I am wondering WHY these changes occurred and if they really benefit the actual and goal without to many negative side effects. A example shall we..
Cysts not going poof. Pro
* Easier to cyst.
* Riskier cysting. (if a patch survives you can build and echo there)
* A much much higher mapcontrol for alien commander.
Con
* A much much higher mapcontrol for alien commander. (what wut.. but pro, yeh well.. its A LOT of additional mapcontrol)
While this specific change looks quite nice and easy for rookie comms, it actually allows you to grow infestation in places you couldnt reach before. (or could not keep if reached.)
It shoves the balance around and marine play/buffs/etc is not ready for that just right now.
The same for the 'forgiving' pres change. While its very forgiving for alien, its far from unforgiving for marine.
You need a much higher lifeform kill count to stay in the game due to them just refading. Combine that with other changes like having that healing station close by due to the cyst change and really?
I am all for improvement. Change can be good.
But lately we had A LOT of change quickly, without really testing results. It takes time to adjust for both newbs and vets to see how changes play out.
We did not get that time in between changes.
I can accept that you want to 'fix' whats being put in rather then remove, but right now we have a lovely annoying situation.
* We have to fix the balance with new changes.
* And unlike the previous times, actually have to think.. truly THINK how this will influence various levels of play. The balance mess we have now could have been seen quite easy.
Yes I know balance may 'look' ok due to the many new players. Well, wait for them to experience up. They will notice
On a more serious not, how did the alien pres change even make it into the game?
I'd like to address both of these at once.
The HP bar reactions were still somewhat fresh, and discussions over marines benefiting more kept coming up despite stats not backing it up.
Around this same time the TF Tres comeback/handicap mod was being thoroughly analyzed (remi ran simulations) and discussed.
It had too many downsides and therefore was not considered viable (shame that a better or adjusted implementation was not considered before scrapping the concept..)
Around then the idea was suggested by a UWE employee to increase the Pres rate slightly, as a soft attempt to provide a slice of what that TF mod was doing in regards to forgiveness and fun, but full well knowing that it would benefit aliens more in this case. The arguments were raised that everyone felt marines currently had an advantage so this might help with that, and that marines also slightly benefit from increased Pres rate as well. (but to what degree no one could predict*) There was the obvious argument as well that it would make the game more fun and forgiving to play alien.. more chances to learn to play etc.
Concerns were then brought up regarding the importance of alien lifeforms and the strong impact that they've had historically speaking, despite biomass or upgrades etc (4 min onos)
The response was that we could try it in testing, so we did. Multiple testers expressed concern as well as enjoyment afterward - it was mixed. On one hand it felt more fun but on the other hand it felt imbalanced, and so it was not fully conclusive.
*I want to stress at this point that there was a clear lack of ability to predict the level of impact it could have. We could theorycraft all day but with just two PT teams and mixed feedback it was not clear how it would play out or how much would be impacted. Hindsight really is 20/20, and you can run simulations or test all day but still not predict accurately. There were concerns but they just weren't being clearly evidenced in our small sample size worth of testing. So the decision to try it out publicly to garner feedback was made. Suffice it to say, not every change can be "seen quite easily".. we can all see possible issues and raise them (And do all the time) but this is never a guarantee that it will be the case in the public. There are many times when we've thought something would've been a much bigger deal but no one reacted to it publicly. (recently it was the HMG or adjusted lerk spores and their biomass etc) Then there's the opposite to that scenario (atmospheric territories)
In the end, the truth is that more complicated or influencing balance changes cannot always be foreseen accurately enough.. despite rooms full of people discussing and testing it. You can predict possibilities but not the practical outcome or more importantly the degree of the impact, so sometimes getting it out there in the wild is necessary for some changes, just to get the data.
I realize this is not at all ideal - you as a paying customer of a product you enjoy do not want something tested on you - but in truth it's the only way for some changes, and indeed must occur if there are to be real improvements to this game that can help grow it. The good news is that they can quickly roll things back (atmo mod) if need be, or quickly adjust (HMG or spores). Right now these two changes - Perma Cysts and Pres rate - have accumulated enough data and are being talked about internally.. now is the time to test out adjustments, and if nothing fits, scrap it.
So please provide suggestions for these balance changes, and if nothing truly works, then I have faith they will revert. They do read these forums and people (PTs etc) are vocal about both their own experiences as well as relaying the reception to these things internally.
Hope that sheds some light to both of those quotes.
Referring to pres problem:
in order to prevent instant re- lerk/fade, we could just add a cooldown. Like 2 mins for lerks and 3 mins for fades.
But you can still take any other lifeform.
I know it sounds straitforward and maybe dumb. Just putting my 2 cents in.
@IronHorse Thank you for this in-depth answer. I have 3 things to remark, though:
- I find it strange that marines were considered strong before the pres change. My personal impression was that Oni already were a problem before the pres change came up, and it only got worse from there.
- I also find it it strange that a 25% increase (which, at a constant income, translates into a 25% decrease in waiting time) is considered "slight". I would be less opposed to the change if it were, say, 10%.
- I'm glad to thear that the effects of the pres change are being discussed right now.
Yeah I'm glad others are also discussing the issue with alien pres and instant re-lerks/re-fades. The first attempt doesn't have to be perfect, but it would be nice to see something tried. I don't think buffing the marines is the answer as a lot of this comes down to how well can the marines shoot. It's also difficult to kill a good life form multiple times in a row. So yea, I think it would be cool to try a pres slow down for alien life forms next patch or something that changes this aspect of the game. Might as well try things until something works better. Marines should feel a good opening once a good lifeform goes down. Should lead to some better moments for marines mid game. Also some aiming/advanced tutorials would help people shoot lerks and fades better, but that might be a ways off if it happens. The pres alien changes could happen now.
I'm looking forward to the feedback we'll get, if we get any.
"We've all read your comments and have discussed it to great extent internally. We appreciate your concerns. However, we've seen a positive effect, so the pres change is here to stay. The truth is, NS2 is a really damn hard game to get into and rookies need every bit of help they can get. Giving them the chance to flash their lifeform twice in a round instead of just once is another step we have to take in order to increase the accessibility and make this game more enjoyable for all. We trust you understand."
has anyone said anything about health bars having a positive effect yet?
I am not trolling I am just seriously curious what was the positive effect.
Because from what I am seeing, Like half of my community which I play in has actually rage quit and refused to come back at all. Maybe like I see them once of twice every 2 weeks.
to be fair, I'm not sure if it was the health bars but most of them refused to touch ns2 again until it is fixed(I can only assume health bar since it was that exact patch)
has anyone said anything about health bars having a positive effect yet?
I am not trolling I am just seriously curious what was the positive effect.
Because from what I am seeing, Like half of my community which I play in has actually rage quit and refused to come back at all. Maybe like I see them once of twice every 2 weeks.
to be fair, I'm not sure if it was the health bars but most of them refused to touch ns2 again until it is fixed(I can only assume health bar since it was that exact patch)
The positive effect is that it provides information that is vital to the game, making learning it much MUCH easier... which leads to more people enjoying playing ns2 and as such increases the chance that people will stick around.
This is not a popular answer, and many people argue against it, but unfortunately for many people, it is true.
The simple fact is that most people that still play NS2 like the complexity more than anything else about the game (or at least thats the way it seems to me) and they view this change as negative because it takes away a long and winding learning curve that most don't have the patience to get through.
The argument that it helps tracking is laughable, it doesn't help tracking in the slightest, either you can aim, or you can't... it does however help with focusing on a target, and once a target is hit it helps with visibility... which for a while lead to flashing lifeforms for many people, but as with all balance changes, after a while that settled down when people adapted.
Another positive effect is that it raises the skill floor (common misconception is that it lowers the skill ceiling, which is untrue) raising the skill floor means that people coming into the game for the first time (or are at least very new to the game) can compete at a higher level than if the healthbars weren't present. So basically the skill gap that has plagued this game for a long time and put newbies off playing at all... well that gap is not so huge anymore.
ahhh, okay thanks for the input. It does make a lot of sense. But it does drive away all those existing players(long time players) from what I am seeing.
Regarding that it helps tracking, I can say it does. Not sure if it is just me or something but having a bright neon bar(hp bar) on a skulk running into a dark area/corner or somewhere hard to see a skulk(because body of a skulk actually bends on darker areas of the map), you can actually roughly tell where the skulks are.
Just need to trace the hp bars in otherwords because the contrast is really huge. Without hp bars, the skulk does have similar dull colors with the ambience.
The argument that it helps tracking is laughable, it doesn't help tracking in the slightest, either you can aim, or you can't...
Well it sure helps me. Everyone's different.
My main issue with health bars is NS2 was always about the immersion. All the graphics and effects intentionally made the game realistic and dark. That's the main appeal that hooked a lot of fans. When you add something that so obviously goes against this then no matter what you think it is bad for the game.
MephillesGermanyJoin Date: 2013-08-07Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
it's funny how so many people play ns2 for different reasons.
Some play it for atmosphere and immersion.
Others play it for the game concept of having a fast paced fps-rts hybrid and want to compete at the highest level
The next ones do it for the lulz
...
What I say is the community is split into alot of sub communities who all want to experience the game differently. It is rly hard if not close to impossible to make changes that satisfies everyone. (See the discussion about faster ragdoll dissolving for example)
has anyone said anything about health bars having a positive effect yet?
I am not trolling I am just seriously curious what was the positive effect.
Because from what I am seeing, Like half of my community which I play in has actually rage quit and refused to come back at all. Maybe like I see them once of twice every 2 weeks.
to be fair, I'm not sure if it was the health bars but most of them refused to touch ns2 again until it is fixed(I can only assume health bar since it was that exact patch)
They made me a far better player, both due to the tracking bonus and the accurate health information. I consider this a good thing. Others may not
My main issue with health bars is NS2 was always about the immersion. All the graphics and effects intentionally made the game realistic and dark. That's the main appeal that hooked a lot of fans. When you add something that so obviously goes against this then no matter what you think it is bad for the game.
I have to agree with this. They fit neither the marine nor the alien HUD, and thus stand out a lot. If they are here to stay they should be better integrated into those and made more subtle.
Aliens are more based on teamwork and trying to kill the pressure marines without losing too many skulks / hp so they can slow down marine capping speed to slow down marine tres and tech accumulation
Marines is more solo based with emphasis on pushing hard and fast early game and fragging quick so to stop cyst chains and alien PRES accumulation
Late game
Alien play turns to more solo based play on how good your fades are and if your onos can appropriately apply pressure to distract marines so you can res bite.
Marine play turns into more team based play as they try and prevent onos breaking PGs so they can maintain map control whilst solo marines mop up res biters so high tech can come out and frag the higher lifeforms and maybe an ARC train
My biggest problem as a marine is when onos pop up because I have to try and organise the team to be in certain position and react to certain plays and I become less important.
My biggest problem as aliens is the first minute, and if that goes well, then the first 3 minutes, and if that goes well, the first 8 minutes. After that, I'm in a position to be able to solo the server. If one of those hurdles goes poorly, it's so difficult to come back until onos because onos are stupid strong.
I'd like to see the early game change ever so slightly more similar to late game style, and vice versa.
I want to be a weaker marine early game, but be stronger as a solo marine late game
I want to be a stronger skulk early game, but a weaker lifeform late game.
I don't quite agree with everything here - I would rename "Late Game" to "Mid Game" - late game is when aliens have built up enough momentum to crush marines; the focus now becomes organizing a rush on the alien side to end the game quickly. In extreme cases alien teams lose because they cannot organize a rush.
I don't quite agree with everything here - I would rename "Late Game" to "Mid Game" - late game is when aliens have built up enough momentum to crush marines; the focus now becomes organizing a rush on the alien side to end the game quickly. In extreme cases alien teams lose because they cannot organize a rush.
And yes, onos stronk.
I'd call that end game which comes after late game imo
I don't quite agree with everything here - I would rename "Late Game" to "Mid Game" - late game is when aliens have built up enough momentum to crush marines; the focus now becomes organizing a rush on the alien side to end the game quickly. In extreme cases alien teams lose because they cannot organize a rush.
And yes, onos stronk.
I'd call that end game which comes after late game imo
Okay, you have a point here. Still, take out the momentum thing, and aliens still could attempt a win any time at a rush. They just aren't guaranteed a success (yet).
Comments
When we buff everything as much as possible, game is clearly better then right?
No. The only solution to the BAD and UNBALANCED pres change is to revert that BAD and UNBALANCED change. Stop the policy please that you want change things only to compensate for Bad patches. Instead stop making Bad patches. It is so easy.
When lerk spores were changed recently and they were useless people didn't shout "revert it" .. they suggested fixes (myself included) to get it to a better place.
When the HMG was introduced to comp mod was it immediately balanced? No.. it took quite a long time to get it to a good place, all the while people like yourself were calling for it to be removed instead.
There are thousands of examples like these..
As much as you don't like it, sometimes a balance change can be met with a compensating balance change and work just fine.
There are benefits and downsides to this recent change (just like the ones mentioned above) .. your time is better spent providing suggestions on how to alleviate said downsides like Deck just did.
You mean lerk spores were changed to crop duster, complained about, and eventually after a few years reverted to projectile right? The HMG example isn't a really good parallel either. They didn't change other things to compensate for the HMG being overpowered/underpowered. They changed the HMG to try and make it fit.
Lerks had bile bomb and was reverted. Feign death was tried for awhile. Crop duster spores were given up on recently. Despite all efforts, it never really worked. All the while people like yourself were calling for it to remain. There are thousands of examples like these!
As much as you hate to admit it, sometimes changes can be obvious failures. There are benefits and downsides to every change, but sometimes it is better to just revert.
Anyway, on a more serious note, the real problem is rapid iteration. All change is not good change and the stubborn insistence on not reverting any is compounding the issue. Sometimes it is better to go back to the drawing board or put it on hold until a more complete solution can be in place. Knee jerk changes tend to not help. I get that changes are made in the first place to solve perceived problems in the status quo and are thus necessary, but I am really perplexed at what seems to be providing a solution to the new problem created last week that results in a new solution next week to address the problem with the solution this week.
Why can't balance changes be tested as extensions first instead? Atmospheric lighting and NS2 tweaks should have proved that it works quite well?
*Not that I've played the game (and therefore many of the recent changes) for over a month though I do read the changelogs
Welsh, its not possible to not make bad patches without having extensive playtesting. That's just not happening. I think its been stated that NS2 is essentially in beta where the players are also playtesters as far as balance and game play is concerned. Only actual game breaking bugs get stopped.
Yes some things have been reverted. Some things like bio mass and exos have been adjusted for years and years.
Speaking about the existence of one of these scenarios does not preclude the other from existing.
You warning of knee jerk reactions when calling to revert something you have admittedly not tried and that's been out for a short time is just rich.
There are benefits to this change. It would be nice to remedy the imbalance instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
But if it's too hard to come up with good ideas or suggestions I understand.. but in that case save the reversion talk until after the rest of us try at least one idea before scrapping it. It is not stubbornness to try ONE thing before reverting ffs
Lastly, I know you're the master at assumptions, but when it comes to what occurs internally you should really just hold your tongue as it's so embarrassingly uninformed that it's borderline misinformation.
I don't know why scaling Pres hasn't been done yet. I've always thought about that since the beginning. After killing a skilled Fade, he just comes back as a fade again and a struggling team never makes any headway.
A scaling Pres system would just have to make that skilled fade survive longer to "re-fade".
Yeah I think it makes sense for a fade or lerk to have their pres slowed way down so the only way they could re-lerk or re-fade again is if they had all the res nodes or they were alive for a super long time (or they died right away and waited with the pres how it is now). There has to be more of a gap between re-lerking or re-fading for skilled players. If they want to keep the current pres flow increase, then this is the other option I see that could make for better games. Onos should probably have their pres slowed down too, but could possibly be slowed down less than a lerk or fade.
The other option could be to cap out the pres of a current lerk/fade/or onos with the slowed down pres. So basically how it could work is: you go lerk/fade/onos - but let's say a lerk caps out at 15 with slow pres so they have to wait before re-lerking. Fade would have slowed pres but would cap out at 25 or 30 so they would have to wait before re-fading. Onos could also have slowed pres with a 50 cap. This gives the marine team a chance to comeback and adds a different risk to choosing a life form. The risk is necessary to win, but there's a risk.
The problem with this option would be you are limiting yourself by going lerk because it would be harder to help the team by fading or going onos later in the game (unless you died early). So this idea might not work, but throwing it out there. Or you don't cap a lerk's pres you just slow it down so a lerk has a chance to do other things later in the game. Fades might be the most op'd part of the game in a pub anyways, so capping out a fade pres might make sense. This way, if you kill as skilled fade 10 min into the game or 20 min, you still have a chance once the fade goes down.
It really just makes you heal faster so you can re-engage sooner. But that shit isn't true when people don't know how to position themselves as an onos in the first the place.
Most people are sooner to retreat that kill a DPS marine. 75% of the time it's better to kill 1/3 marines and keep fighting until 0/3 than to run from 3/3. Boneshield now won't save my ass unless the comm forgot to drop ammo.
Boneshield before let me time my bone shield with shotgun shots so i wouldn't spend too much energy and would have enough left to charge/engage/gore. Onos is left without tools to kill hmg in a skill matchup now. Ill still die with armor and no health.
Having a gorge isn't realistic everywhere.
I think the idea about lower pres income can work and it could be tried. But no res caps. It would mean you don't get the advantage out of holding many RTs and successfully surviving with your lifeform.
Yes it is. I can't tell you how well it plays, but it is fairly obvious what changes are in reaction to.
Edit - I was being general, but I did play the pres change.
You missed the point entirely. I was copying your argument. Glad you admit its bullshit hyperbole and cherry picking.
Lastly, I know you're the master of not addressing arguments, but you should really try to engage people instead of putting up strawmen and just saying what you want.
As stated before I am solid in the ballpark of saying aliens are OP atm. And much of this is due to changes. But I am wondering WHY these changes occurred and if they really benefit the actual and goal without to many negative side effects. A example shall we..
Cysts not going poof.
Pro
* Easier to cyst.
* Riskier cysting. (if a patch survives you can build and echo there)
* A much much higher mapcontrol for alien commander.
Con
* A much much higher mapcontrol for alien commander. (what wut.. but pro, yeh well.. its A LOT of additional mapcontrol)
While this specific change looks quite nice and easy for rookie comms, it actually allows you to grow infestation in places you couldnt reach before. (or could not keep if reached.)
It shoves the balance around and marine play/buffs/etc is not ready for that just right now.
The same for the 'forgiving' pres change. While its very forgiving for alien, its far from unforgiving for marine.
You need a much higher lifeform kill count to stay in the game due to them just refading. Combine that with other changes like having that healing station close by due to the cyst change and really?
I am all for improvement. Change can be good.
But lately we had A LOT of change quickly, without really testing results. It takes time to adjust for both newbs and vets to see how changes play out.
We did not get that time in between changes.
I can accept that you want to 'fix' whats being put in rather then remove, but right now we have a lovely annoying situation.
* We have to fix the balance with new changes.
* And unlike the previous times, actually have to think.. truly THINK how this will influence various levels of play. The balance mess we have now could have been seen quite easy.
Yes I know balance may 'look' ok due to the many new players. Well, wait for them to experience up. They will notice
Restore shotgun to 8 shell max.
On a more serious not, how did the alien pres change even make it into the game? The rest we can work with, but that one seems short sighted.
Make rookie aliens less frustrated.
The HP bar reactions were still somewhat fresh, and discussions over marines benefiting more kept coming up despite stats not backing it up.
Around this same time the TF Tres comeback/handicap mod was being thoroughly analyzed (remi ran simulations) and discussed.
It had too many downsides and therefore was not considered viable (shame that a better or adjusted implementation was not considered before scrapping the concept..)
Around then the idea was suggested by a UWE employee to increase the Pres rate slightly, as a soft attempt to provide a slice of what that TF mod was doing in regards to forgiveness and fun, but full well knowing that it would benefit aliens more in this case. The arguments were raised that everyone felt marines currently had an advantage so this might help with that, and that marines also slightly benefit from increased Pres rate as well. (but to what degree no one could predict*) There was the obvious argument as well that it would make the game more fun and forgiving to play alien.. more chances to learn to play etc.
Concerns were then brought up regarding the importance of alien lifeforms and the strong impact that they've had historically speaking, despite biomass or upgrades etc (4 min onos)
The response was that we could try it in testing, so we did. Multiple testers expressed concern as well as enjoyment afterward - it was mixed. On one hand it felt more fun but on the other hand it felt imbalanced, and so it was not fully conclusive.
*I want to stress at this point that there was a clear lack of ability to predict the level of impact it could have. We could theorycraft all day but with just two PT teams and mixed feedback it was not clear how it would play out or how much would be impacted. Hindsight really is 20/20, and you can run simulations or test all day but still not predict accurately. There were concerns but they just weren't being clearly evidenced in our small sample size worth of testing. So the decision to try it out publicly to garner feedback was made. Suffice it to say, not every change can be "seen quite easily".. we can all see possible issues and raise them (And do all the time) but this is never a guarantee that it will be the case in the public. There are many times when we've thought something would've been a much bigger deal but no one reacted to it publicly. (recently it was the HMG or adjusted lerk spores and their biomass etc) Then there's the opposite to that scenario (atmospheric territories)
In the end, the truth is that more complicated or influencing balance changes cannot always be foreseen accurately enough.. despite rooms full of people discussing and testing it. You can predict possibilities but not the practical outcome or more importantly the degree of the impact, so sometimes getting it out there in the wild is necessary for some changes, just to get the data.
I realize this is not at all ideal - you as a paying customer of a product you enjoy do not want something tested on you - but in truth it's the only way for some changes, and indeed must occur if there are to be real improvements to this game that can help grow it. The good news is that they can quickly roll things back (atmo mod) if need be, or quickly adjust (HMG or spores). Right now these two changes - Perma Cysts and Pres rate - have accumulated enough data and are being talked about internally.. now is the time to test out adjustments, and if nothing fits, scrap it.
So please provide suggestions for these balance changes, and if nothing truly works, then I have faith they will revert. They do read these forums and people (PTs etc) are vocal about both their own experiences as well as relaying the reception to these things internally.
Hope that sheds some light to both of those quotes.
in order to prevent instant re- lerk/fade, we could just add a cooldown. Like 2 mins for lerks and 3 mins for fades.
But you can still take any other lifeform.
I know it sounds straitforward and maybe dumb. Just putting my 2 cents in.
- I find it strange that marines were considered strong before the pres change. My personal impression was that Oni already were a problem before the pres change came up, and it only got worse from there.
- I also find it it strange that a 25% increase (which, at a constant income, translates into a 25% decrease in waiting time) is considered "slight". I would be less opposed to the change if it were, say, 10%.
- I'm glad to thear that the effects of the pres change are being discussed right now.
Thank you for these insights.
"We've all read your comments and have discussed it to great extent internally. We appreciate your concerns. However, we've seen a positive effect, so the pres change is here to stay. The truth is, NS2 is a really damn hard game to get into and rookies need every bit of help they can get. Giving them the chance to flash their lifeform twice in a round instead of just once is another step we have to take in order to increase the accessibility and make this game more enjoyable for all. We trust you understand."
- Some PDT member, some point in the future
I am not trolling I am just seriously curious what was the positive effect.
Because from what I am seeing, Like half of my community which I play in has actually rage quit and refused to come back at all. Maybe like I see them once of twice every 2 weeks.
to be fair, I'm not sure if it was the health bars but most of them refused to touch ns2 again until it is fixed(I can only assume health bar since it was that exact patch)
The positive effect is that it provides information that is vital to the game, making learning it much MUCH easier... which leads to more people enjoying playing ns2 and as such increases the chance that people will stick around.
This is not a popular answer, and many people argue against it, but unfortunately for many people, it is true.
The simple fact is that most people that still play NS2 like the complexity more than anything else about the game (or at least thats the way it seems to me) and they view this change as negative because it takes away a long and winding learning curve that most don't have the patience to get through.
The argument that it helps tracking is laughable, it doesn't help tracking in the slightest, either you can aim, or you can't... it does however help with focusing on a target, and once a target is hit it helps with visibility... which for a while lead to flashing lifeforms for many people, but as with all balance changes, after a while that settled down when people adapted.
Another positive effect is that it raises the skill floor (common misconception is that it lowers the skill ceiling, which is untrue) raising the skill floor means that people coming into the game for the first time (or are at least very new to the game) can compete at a higher level than if the healthbars weren't present. So basically the skill gap that has plagued this game for a long time and put newbies off playing at all... well that gap is not so huge anymore.
Regarding that it helps tracking, I can say it does. Not sure if it is just me or something but having a bright neon bar(hp bar) on a skulk running into a dark area/corner or somewhere hard to see a skulk(because body of a skulk actually bends on darker areas of the map), you can actually roughly tell where the skulks are.
Just need to trace the hp bars in otherwords because the contrast is really huge. Without hp bars, the skulk does have similar dull colors with the ambience.
Well it sure helps me. Everyone's different.
My main issue with health bars is NS2 was always about the immersion. All the graphics and effects intentionally made the game realistic and dark. That's the main appeal that hooked a lot of fans. When you add something that so obviously goes against this then no matter what you think it is bad for the game.
Some play it for atmosphere and immersion.
Others play it for the game concept of having a fast paced fps-rts hybrid and want to compete at the highest level
The next ones do it for the lulz
...
What I say is the community is split into alot of sub communities who all want to experience the game differently. It is rly hard if not close to impossible to make changes that satisfies everyone. (See the discussion about faster ragdoll dissolving for example)
They made me a far better player, both due to the tracking bonus and the accurate health information. I consider this a good thing. Others may not
I have to agree with this. They fit neither the marine nor the alien HUD, and thus stand out a lot. If they are here to stay they should be better integrated into those and made more subtle.
My biggest problem as a marine is when onos pop up because I have to try and organise the team to be in certain position and react to certain plays and I become less important.
My biggest problem as aliens is the first minute, and if that goes well, then the first 3 minutes, and if that goes well, the first 8 minutes. After that, I'm in a position to be able to solo the server. If one of those hurdles goes poorly, it's so difficult to come back until onos because onos are stupid strong.
I'd like to see the early game change ever so slightly more similar to late game style, and vice versa.
I want to be a weaker marine early game, but be stronger as a solo marine late game
I want to be a stronger skulk early game, but a weaker lifeform late game.
I don't quite agree with everything here - I would rename "Late Game" to "Mid Game" - late game is when aliens have built up enough momentum to crush marines; the focus now becomes organizing a rush on the alien side to end the game quickly. In extreme cases alien teams lose because they cannot organize a rush.
And yes, onos stronk.
I'd call that end game which comes after late game imo
Okay, you have a point here. Still, take out the momentum thing, and aliens still could attempt a win any time at a rush. They just aren't guaranteed a success (yet).