Bad ratings for imbalanced games

alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
If you have played games where your team gets dominated by the other team then you're most likely to rate the match played with few stars. The reason for this is imbalanced teams. Even with balance mods it's hard to make teams balanced. Newer players may quit playing after a few stacked matches. I know I wanted to.

A good way to fix this:
Server side setting for handicap on.
Every 5 minutes check if a team has double the pres and tres of the other team.
If so then award everyone on the losing team +50 pres and tres.

The losing team will probably still lose, but they will have much more fun playing and then they will rate the game much higher.

Tdlr - "TEAM HANDICAP AWARD +50 RES"
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Comments

  • migalskimigalski Boston Join Date: 2014-07-02 Member: 197181Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Or instead you know, f4 or surrender and get a new game going like a normal person?
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Great idea. Also when the winning team got 100 or more tres more than the losing team, the winning should instant lose a hive (on alien side) or all upgrades (on marine side). Am I doing it right?
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    This is a terrible idea, as has been concluded in countless discussions before.
    Actually, a "comeback mechanic" has actually been implemented a few weeks ago, where teams get more pres if they have less RTs than the enemy team (...or something like that).
    Although apparently that didn't have a huge impact on this, does anyone have numbers? (@Nordic ?)
  • alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
    It's more of a way of the losing team having fun instead of vote concead rate the match 1 star and rage quit.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2016
    This is a terrible idea, as has been concluded in countless discussions before.
    Actually, a "comeback mechanic" has actually been implemented a few weeks ago, where teams get more pres if they have less RTs than the enemy team (...or something like that).
    Although apparently that didn't have a huge impact on this, does anyone have numbers? (@Nordic ?)

    That did not go in according to Remi. According to the testing on Tactical Freedom, and it made losing more fun likethe OP wants. http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2284777/#Comment_2284777
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    TBF.. the TF mod is different than what the OP is suggesting.
    Also worth noting that it did not impact round length or balance that much.. it just felt better. Far less demotivating rounds or reason to concede.
    And it was still flawed / biased towards Marines imho. (Tres is not equally powerful between the teams)

    I'd like to see a Pres (alien) / Tres (marine) version of it.

    One thing is for sure.. It opened my eyes to the unnecessary pain and frustration that comes with restricted options in a team based competitive game.
    There is so much depth still with strategy and positioning that not having the funds to execute them seems unnecessarily restrictive, and a left over from RTS fitting into FPS.
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Members
    "comeback mechanic" - This won't have much effect with the current 1.25 res model.

    Currently Steam doesn't even have this game as a high priority download - it's the end of times, doom, doom doooooom!
  • CCTEECCTEE Join Date: 2013-06-20 Member: 185634Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    alster wrote: »
    If you have played games where your team gets dominated by the other team then you're most likely to rate the match played with few stars. The reason for this is imbalanced teams. Even with balance mods it's hard to make teams balanced. Newer players may quit playing after a few stacked matches. I know I wanted to.

    A good way to fix this:
    Server side setting for handicap on.
    Every 5 minutes check if a team has double the pres and tres of the other team.
    If so then award everyone on the losing team +50 pres and tres.

    The losing team will probably still lose, but they will have much more fun playing and then they will rate the game much higher.

    Tdlr - "TEAM HANDICAP AWARD +50 RES"

    We're considering a mechanic where 5 minutes into the game, it just randomly declares a team the winner with a 50-50 chance. That should make everything perfectly 50% balanced.
    ( Obligatory: Yes this is sarcasm... because some people just can't detect it very well... :/ )

    That would make aliens overpowered with their 1 min into the game game-ending baserushes!
    I suggest making the timeperiod shorter, maybe 20 seconds or so.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    The best way to avoid imbalanced teams. Is skill segregation + ELO
    Maybe we will see it one day in NS3!
  • RammlerRammler Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    First: New Hive-System. The current system is pretty useless. In a game like NS2 the elo is a very bad system to rate skill. Because its not always your fault when the team is losing. The new skill-system should focus on the performance of a single player and not on the teamperformance. So the new skill-system can really tell how strong a single player performs in generell.

    Second: To avoid stacking, the balance-system needs a remake.
    beside the classic "shuffle" function the normal joining-phase should count the skilllevel with every player entered a team.
    So if marines have 500 hive and alien 420 a stronger player can only join aliens. Then with marines 500 hive and aliens 560 a stronger player can now only join rines.

    So stacking with 1800 against 1200 or something can be avoided with this.
  • fleasfleas Join Date: 2007-10-13 Member: 62623Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2016
    Much as I understand the reason for balanced game, you have to understand "vets" side as well.

    some examples of why doing a Forced team balance for "vets" is a bit unfair:
    - Do you like playing 5 games in a roll on the same side(aliens/marine)?
    - Everyone on your team is "new" due to your "high" hive score, you pretty much stuck in situation where you have to tell everyone what to do. As a new player if you see 1 guy trying to micromanage the whole team, he looks like a douche apparently(in other words; someone who thinks he knows everything). Quite a frustrating experience.


    I'm all okay with people learning and stuff. I mean everyone starts off as a rookie, even I still make stupid mistakes now. But the point is, the rookies need to able to listen and hear experienced players out instead of just ignoring and asking them to stfu. Sometimes it isn't their fault due to language barrier(they don't speak English).

    I'm not sure how to fix this tbh, it's just the current situation it is now.

    At least a few weeks/months ago, there were a lot of "vets"(in my community) around and you can notice those vets giving some "tips" to the rookies(at the time we can see their nick highlighted green) like "as a lerk you need to keep moving"....etc. Now it just like 5? i'm not sure atm. They are outnumbered now




    Anyway about the hive score; I reckon to be more "accurate" instead of just win/lose ratio, I think player dmg and structure dmg should be taken in account for field players. Commanders should get hive score based on win/lose ratio only.






  • migalskimigalski Boston Join Date: 2014-07-02 Member: 197181Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    fleas wrote: »
    Much as I understand the reason for balanced game, you have to understand "vets" side as well.

    some examples of why doing a Forced team balance for "vets" is a bit unfair:
    - Do you like playing 5 games in a roll on the same side(aliens/marine)?
    - Everyone on your team is "new" due to your "high" hive score, you pretty much stuck in situation where you have to tell everyone what to do. As a new player if you see 1 guy trying to micromanage the whole team, he looks like a **** apparently(in other words; someone who thinks he knows everything). Quite a frustrating experience.

    I'm all okay with people learning and stuff. I mean everyone starts off as a rookie, even I still make stupid mistakes now. But the point is, the rookies need to able to listen and hear experienced players out instead of just ignoring and asking them to stfu. Sometimes it isn't their fault due to language barrier(they don't speak English).

    I'm not sure how to fix this tbh, it's just the current situation it is now.

    At least a few weeks/months ago, there were a lot of "vets"(in my community) around and you can notice those vets giving some "tips" to the rookies(at the time we can see their nick highlighted green) like "as a lerk you need to keep moving"....etc. Now it just like 5? i'm not sure atm. They are outnumbered now

    Anyway about the hive score; I reckon to be more "accurate" instead of just win/lose ratio, I think player dmg and structure dmg should be taken in account for field players. Commanders should get hive score based on win/lose ratio only.

    Can confirm, have been sitting around 2800 -3200ish range for elo, alien = carry lerk or carry fade or else my team gets rolled, same on marines. If i command my team cant even hold naturals 90% of the time.

    Gave up ordering players around when players either ignore me or insult me for attempting to.

    Stopped bothering to try to teach players how to play when they 1 don't listen or 2 insist they know how to play ns2 better than i do and that i'm an idiot.

    If i happen to bother to get on and play, its purely listening to music killing time before work or something, don't care if its against greens or vets, can't even tell who is who.

    If i want to play with friends i never can, we get shuffled apart 99% of the time, can never pick which side i want to play either.

    I get players want good games and balance but in reality ns2 pubs are really similar to csgo casuals, except i can never play with friends, and i get forced on a team i don't want to play quite often, if i ever want to play a game with friends now a days, ns2 is not even on the list of games to play but i guess player retention has increased so why would uwe care
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Sorry Nordic but Hive system does an absolutely terrible job at measuring a players skill.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    @The_Welsh_Wizard Actually it beats out most other standards used today like TrueSkill (which is patented) as far as accurately representing skill goes.

    The real issue is the time it takes to be accurate... which is covered in Nordic's second bullet point, and is why I brought that issue up in that thread.
    Requiring hundreds and hundreds of hours to be accurate is too tall of an order to ensure rookies get a chance to play balanced games, which can directly contribute to a smaller playercount and thus the negative loop continues.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2016
    Sorry Nordic but Hive system does an absolutely terrible job at measuring a players skill.

    What in game stats do you think are more representative of skill? Do you think a players KDR, or kill rate is more representative of skill? Do you think that a players Score/minute is more representative of a players skill? What in game metrics do you think matter?
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Members
    edited June 2016
    "What in game stats do you think are more representative of skill? Kdr, win rate, score per minute, assists, marine accuracy, or other? "

    Hive level. Ie: Cumulative score.

    Anyway, just what are these stars going to do? Are you going to watch each rated game and see why a particular res node died and one team lost? Even with a massively Google sized algorithm you are not actually going to get any relevant data from stars vs games that you didn't already have available from 100,000 forum posts.

    There are so few players that any 'statistics' won't even meet the 1200 sample size required to make inferences about your population.
  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @The_Welsh_Wizard Actually it beats out most other standards used today like TrueSkill (which is patented) as far as accurately representing skill goes.

    The real issue is the time it takes to be accurate... which is covered in Nordic's second bullet point, and is why I brought that issue up in that thread.
    Requiring hundreds and hundreds of hours to be accurate is too tall of an order to ensure rookies get a chance to play balanced games, which can directly contribute to a smaller playercount and thus the negative loop continues.

    Also it makes it additionally difficult that we can't segregate players into a skill-range group (apart from rookie only).
  • RammlerRammler Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2016
    Nordic wrote: »
    Sorry Nordic but Hive system does an absolutely terrible job at measuring a players skill.

    What in game stats do you think are more representative of skill? Do you think a players KDR, or kill rate is more representative of skill? Do you think that a players Score/minute is more representative of a players skill? What in game metrics do you think matter?

    Player-Score is a good indicator. At the moment the hive rewards the team. This includes the topscorer but also the one guy with 2% acc and a kdr of 1:27.
    Imo it is not fair that the topscorer of the losing side is losing hive skill while the bad players on the winning side are getting it.

    With a high hiveskill you always have to carry your teammates, but it is not so easy to command rookies to a win. It is very painful to play a fantastatic round and be awarded with a big hive drop because the rest of the team does not know how to carry a weapon......

    And kdr ist a good indicator too. Only with kdr it is possible to reveal smurfs.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Nordic wrote: »
    This is a terrible idea, as has been concluded in countless discussions before.
    Actually, a "comeback mechanic" has actually been implemented a few weeks ago, where teams get more pres if they have less RTs than the enemy team (...or something like that).
    Although apparently that didn't have a huge impact on this, does anyone have numbers? (@Nordic ?)

    That did not go in according to Remi. According to the testing on Tactical Freedom, and it made losing more fun likethe OP wants. http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2284777/#Comment_2284777

    Thanks for correcting me, I was not aware of this.

    Also I swear I already made this post.
  • BlrgBlrg Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187580Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2016
    Rammler wrote: »
    Imo it is not fair that the topscorer of the losing side is losing hive skill while the bad players on the winning side are getting it.

    Just think about one extreme scenario to understand my point:

    If you have a skill score over 9000 and you lose a round with a kdr of 30:3 against completely new players, shouldn't you lose skill points? You were clearly better than the rest of both teams players, but you clearly don't deserve a skill of 9000... why should you win more points? If you keep winning points just because you are better than the rest of players in your server you could reach infinite skill points...

    On the other hand, the worst player in the opposite team with 0 skill score and a kdr of 1:50 deserve to win skill points, because it is his first game and he had a skill score of 0, and he is clearly better than a 0

    Rammler wrote: »
    Player-Score is a good indicator.

    If player score is all that matters... why should I ever lane block when my whole team is mindlessly pushing to nanogrid in Veil? I will win the game to my team by just killing 3 skulks trying a base rush and yet I will not be one of the top score players of my team

    Rammler wrote: »
    And kdr ist a good indicator too. Only with kdr it is possible to reveal smurfs.

    If kdr is all that matters... why should I ever resbite? I will go fade even if my team has only fades dancing around and achieving nothing
    And kdr sometimes reveal smurfs, but sometimes (in some rare occasions) just reveal marines with good aim playing against mediocre aliens. And more often reveal terrible aliens doing nothing in base until they can go onos with upgrades
  • HandschuhHandschuh Join Date: 2005-03-08 Member: 44338Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Community Developer

    Imo it is not fair that the topscorer of the losing side is losing hive skill while the bad players on the winning side are getting it.

    Well, I think Hiveskill isn't that bad, except for the issue that it takes far to long to adjust to the point when it will be a representative number.. which will mean there will be literally hundreds of games with unfair teams, especially for people with past experience which will help them improving very, fast, for instance.. due to ns1.

    And the thing I think you dont understand is that it needs more to win than just killing everything in your way.. I have currently only 100hours on my record but I've seen several games with people with over 3000 Hiveskill but loosing because they only care about accuracy and kdr but never build anything even if it's crucial at that time.
    So, If you give these arrogant "carries" who dont look where they are really needed a higher hivescore then you'll actually loose more often when playing with them.. it's still a team game.. but lot's of ppl seem to forget that part.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Nordic wrote: »
    Sorry Nordic but Hive system does an absolutely terrible job at measuring a players skill.

    What in game stats do you think are more representative of skill? Do you think a players KDR, or kill rate is more representative of skill? Do you think that a players Score/minute is more representative of a players skill? What in game metrics do you think matter?

    I have no idea how to accurately measures a NS2 players skill. But I know such a system would need an extremely complex algorithm. NS2 got 2 reasons for an ELO system to never work: 1. It is a team game, but not only that, it is also asymmetrical and and top of that with a commander on every team. You would need an own skill rank for every side and for comm / not comm, also you would need a way to see a players impact on a game in relation to the commanders abilites and how the commanders skill affected both sides players and the outcome of the game. 2. NS2 as a game is way too complex for ELO.

    I mean, of course, in the end ELO can be very accurate. But only if every single player in NS2 played 10000 hours minimum.
  • fleasfleas Join Date: 2007-10-13 Member: 62623Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2016
    Initially I proposed that player dmg, structure dmg....etc should be taken in hive score but after reading some of the posts after those, I think I may be wrong.

    I agree with nordic that Hive score should be hidden maybe even from Hive profile as well.

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    fleas wrote: »
    I agree with nordic that Hive score should be hidden maybe even from Hive profile as well.
    Hive skill showing on the scoreboard is a mod that server operators have to enable. So any server with it has opted into that.
  • VivisectorVivisector Tacoma, Wa Join Date: 2016-06-27 Member: 219168Members
    King Arthurs Gold puts some text at the top of the screen to let you know that teams are imbalanced and that joining the smaller team makes you a good person along with the hotkey to switch teams. Maybe not a terrible idea?
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