Update 300 Released! - Natural Selection 2

13

Comments

  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Nordic wrote: »
    Flamethrower damage rate was originally set so low to help performance in alpha as far as I know. We are no longer in alpha and could easily double the fire rate.

    flmaer was op in alpha and it wasnt fun since its such an easy weapon to aim and use.

    I still think it should be repurposed as a noob tube. Make it decent, but less efficient than the shotgun, so rookies can hold their ground with it, but will always be outclassed by shotgunners.
    Ahm no. Give the flamer an own role in this game, don't make it into a half efficient shotgun.

    Why do you think those are mutually exclusive?
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    I still think making the flamethrower a longrange weapon while diminishing it's close range effectiveness is the way to go. Lower initial damage, delayed lifeform ignition, but higher burn damage over time. A smaller cone would make it require a little more tracking while a longer range would enable it to reach faster lifeforms for a moment outside of their effective damage radius which the current flamethrower does a terrible job at.

    XLQXG4P.jpg

    Making the flamethrower cheaper just made it a bigger noob trap, I like auto-weapon pickup for it's ease of use but with all the flamethrowers being dropped on the ground I'm thinking of turning it off.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Nordic wrote: »
    Flamethrower damage rate was originally set so low to help performance in alpha as far as I know. We are no longer in alpha and could easily double the fire rate.

    flmaer was op in alpha and it wasnt fun since its such an easy weapon to aim and use.

    I still think it should be repurposed as a noob tube. Make it decent, but less efficient than the shotgun, so rookies can hold their ground with it, but will always be outclassed by shotgunners.
    Ahm no. Give the flamer an own role in this game, don't make it into a half efficient shotgun.

    Why do you think those are mutually exclusive?

    Well because that is what you suggested. Give the flamer the same role like the shotgun but less effective. At least it is what I understood from your post. "Noob tube" is really something NS2 should never ever have. When the only design goal for a weapon is to make it decent for rookies, even the removal of said weapon would be 1000 times better.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Nordic wrote: »
    Flamethrower damage rate was originally set so low to help performance in alpha as far as I know. We are no longer in alpha and could easily double the fire rate.

    flmaer was op in alpha and it wasnt fun since its such an easy weapon to aim and use.

    I still think it should be repurposed as a noob tube. Make it decent, but less efficient than the shotgun, so rookies can hold their ground with it, but will always be outclassed by shotgunners.
    Ahm no. Give the flamer an own role in this game, don't make it into a half efficient shotgun.

    Why do you think those are mutually exclusive?

    Well because that is what you suggested. Give the flamer the same role like the shotgun but less effective. At least it is what I understood from your post. "Noob tube" is really something NS2 should never ever have. When the only design goal for a weapon is to make it decent for rookies, even the removal of said weapon would be 1000 times better.

    I would like to quote myself:
    Nordic wrote: »
    Flamethrower damage rate was originally set so low to help performance in alpha as far as I know. We are no longer in alpha and could easily double the fire rate.

    flmaer was op in alpha and it wasnt fun since its such an easy weapon to aim and use.

    I still think it should be repurposed as a noob tube. Make it decent, but less efficient than the shotgun, so rookies can hold their ground with it, but will always be outclassed by shotgunners.

    I didn't say anything about changing it's role. Ideally it would keep it's support use.

    And the consequence of NS2 not having any "noob tubes" is horrendously low player retention.

    I specifically don't understand your last sentence. "When the only design goal for a weapon is to make it decent for rookies, even the removal of said weapon would be 1000 times better." Why in the world would you think that?
    Again, such a weapon would be designed to be less efficient than a higher skill floor weapon in the hands of a skilled player.
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    rofl that 300 drawing
  • HandschuuhHandschuuh Germany Join Date: 2016-05-01 Member: 216233Members
    edited May 2016
    Well, id like to comment about the new HMG sound...

    As a former ns1 player i like the hmg.. mostly for nostalgic reasons i guess.
    But my issue is the new high pitch sound which makes it feel like im playing with a Toyminigun in a cartoon..
    Please change the sound or make it changeable.. it's really hard to track while getting annoyed...

    And one comment about the health bars.. i also find them irritating since i cant fully see the alienmodel and i loose track of the alienmovement while aiming because its harder to see it... if you insist on keeping these.. please make it more configurable...

    Thanks
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    edited May 2016
    How on earth do the health bars make you lose track??? You simply aim beneath it and you can't miss

    They're basically a giant banner with an arrow pointing and saying "HEY ALIEN RIGHT HERE!!"
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Just played my first real game against aliens with focus. It felt like a straight fade damage buff. Granted, our commander was incompetent and didn't get a3; but I think Focus may be overpowered, anyway, since fades typically blink around between their strikes, and as such the focus drawback (attack speed) does not apply.

  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    Just played my first real game against aliens with focus. It felt like a straight fade damage buff. Granted, our commander was incompetent and didn't get a3; but I think Focus may be overpowered, anyway, since fades typically blink around between their strikes, and as such the focus drawback (attack speed) does not apply.

    I have to disagree... Fades with good aim can no longer blink in and hit 3 swipes in rapid succession if they have focus.. So if you have high accuracy as a fade it's actually a bad upgrade since it cuts your attack speed in half while only giving 50% more damage...

    Plus this also helps train players in how to correctly play fade. (ie hit and run)
  • RautapalliRautapalli Join Date: 2010-07-23 Member: 72710Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2016
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    Just played my first real game against aliens with focus. It felt like a straight fade damage buff. Granted, our commander was incompetent and didn't get a3; but I think Focus may be overpowered, anyway, since fades typically blink around between their strikes, and as such the focus drawback (attack speed) does not apply.

    I have to disagree... Fades with good aim can no longer blink in and hit 3 swipes in rapid succession if they have focus.. So if you have high accuracy as a fade it's actually a bad upgrade since it cuts your attack speed in half while only giving 50% more damage...

    Plus this also helps train players in how to correctly play fade. (ie hit and run)

    If you're a shitty walker fade that lands next to a marine and holds mouse 1, yeah, focus is not a good upgrade for you. But if you're playing fade like you're supposed to, eg. dodging between each swipe then the slower attack rate doesn't matter and focus is just a straight up damage boost in most situations.

    Obviously there are still some situations where you could max out hit rate, like if the marine isn't even looking at you, but that's hardly a normal engagement.
  • HandschuuhHandschuuh Germany Join Date: 2016-05-01 Member: 216233Members
    edited May 2016
    @MoFo1 in my experience in ns2 you need to aim exactly at the model in order to get a high acc... ns1 was far more lenient... probably because the bullets regged better... not seeing the full alienmodel actually sucks for me... probably because I also predict how the alien moves... but its interestingly much easier for me to track lerks without these healthbars - especially when theyre in "dodgemode"
  • GhoulofGSG9GhoulofGSG9 Join Date: 2013-03-31 Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
    Handschuuh wrote: »
    @MoFo1 in my experience in ns2 you need to aim exactly at the model in order to get a high acc... ns1 was far more lenient... probably because the bullets regged better... not seeing the full alienmodel actually sucks for me... probably because I also predict how the alien moves... but its interestingly much easier for me to track lerks without these healthbars - especially when theyre in "dodgemode"

    You can disable the health bars in the options by setting "Show enemy health" to false ;)
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    edited May 2016
    I dunno I'm an average fade and I can blink in, swipe a marine 3 times to kill then blink out fairly easily, especially when they are facing the other way (which is most of the time if you use silence)

    I don't regularly do that because I'm not good at dodging and escaping as fade, so i don't want to take the risk of dying... However I regularly see good fade players landing in a group of 2-3 marines and killing one with 3-4 quick swipes before blinking away...

    I guess my main point it's that it already has enough of a drawback that it doesn't require further nerfs... As it stands now I'm often torn between focus or aura because knowing hp before you go in gives a bigger advantage
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    To be honest, the best fades usually try to kill the marine as fast as possible without blinking in between swipes. If you're fading against a good marine, blinking around the marine has only a small effect on their aim; they will hit you pretty well regardless. The small gain in disorienting your opponent is far outweighed by the disadvantage of making the fight longer, giving the marine more chances of getting shots out. If you watch pro fades in competitive matches, they go in, start swiping and depending on the hits they land and the shots they receive, they either finish the marine off or disengage completely.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    Neoken wrote: »
    Handschuuh wrote: »
    @MoFo1 in my experience in ns2 you need to aim exactly at the model in order to get a high acc... ns1 was far more lenient... probably because the bullets regged better... not seeing the full alienmodel actually sucks for me... probably because I also predict how the alien moves... but its interestingly much easier for me to track lerks without these healthbars - especially when theyre in "dodgemode"

    You can disable the health bars in the options by setting "Show enemy health" to false ;)

    You guys still don't get it. Disabling HP bars isn't a real option. If you turn it off, you give up all that vital information gain and basically handicap yourself. I find the HP bars ugly and distracting more than anything, but I'm forced to play with them because I don't want to be put at a disadvantage compared to everyone else who is using them.

    So basically you want everyone to suffer because you don't like a particular feature.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    Neoken wrote: »
    Handschuuh wrote: »
    @MoFo1 in my experience in ns2 you need to aim exactly at the model in order to get a high acc... ns1 was far more lenient... probably because the bullets regged better... not seeing the full alienmodel actually sucks for me... probably because I also predict how the alien moves... but its interestingly much easier for me to track lerks without these healthbars - especially when theyre in "dodgemode"

    You can disable the health bars in the options by setting "Show enemy health" to false ;)

    You guys still don't get it. Disabling HP bars isn't a real option. If you turn it off, you give up all that vital information gain and basically handicap yourself. I find the HP bars ugly and distracting more than anything, but I'm forced to play with them because I don't want to be put at a disadvantage compared to everyone else who is using them.

    So basically you want everyone to suffer because you don't like a particular feature.

    Yes, I want everyone to suffer. Clearly that is what will happen if we revert a change that has been made +3 years after release, which no one asked for, and which most people want to see gone again.

    I can only imagine the suffering you must have gone through playing NS1, and NS2 all this time without the HP bars.
  • migalskimigalski Boston Join Date: 2014-07-02 Member: 197181Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    I have to disagree... Fades with good aim can no longer blink in and hit 3 swipes in rapid succession if they have focus.. So if you have high accuracy as a fade it's actually a bad upgrade since it cuts your attack speed in half while only giving 50% more damage...

    Plus this also helps train players in how to correctly play fade. (ie hit and run)
    do you actually play ns2?
  • AliteAlite Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60188Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2016
    MoFo1 wrote: »
    I dunno I'm an average fade and I can blink in, swipe a marine 3 times to kill then blink out fairly easily, especially when they are facing the other way (which is most of the time if you use silence)

    I don't regularly do that because I'm not good at dodging and escaping as fade, so i don't want to take the risk of dying... However I regularly see good fade players landing in a group of 2-3 marines and killing one with 3-4 quick swipes before blinking away...

    I guess my main point it's that it already has enough of a drawback that it doesn't require further nerfs... As it stands now I'm often torn between focus or aura because knowing hp before you go in gives a bigger advantage

    Sounds like you're a trashbag fade who plays with a lot of trashbag fades...I don't think game balance should be based around that (whatever is left of the balance at least)
    Therius wrote: »
    To be honest, the best fades usually try to kill the marine as fast as possible without blinking in between swipes. If you're fading against a good marine, blinking around the marine has only a small effect on their aim; they will hit you pretty well regardless. The small gain in disorienting your opponent is far outweighed by the disadvantage of making the fight longer, giving the marine more chances of getting shots out. If you watch pro fades in competitive matches, they go in, start swiping and depending on the hits they land and the shots they receive, they either finish the marine off or disengage completely.

    I can't agree with that...ground fading will almost always make you take way more damage than you could be taking. You're right that good fades will try to kill marines as fast as possible, but they'll usually still blink so they're not immobile against the marine the whole time (especially vs lmgs who see them coming in). That's how you can tell the best fades apart, they're usually the ones that are able to chain their blinks and land their swipes just right that the amount of time they take to kill a marine is the same as if they ground faded and just 3 swiped them, but unlike a ground fade they're not immobile and taking a ton of damage they don't need to be.
  • BauerJankinsBauerJankins GERMANY, WASHINGTON Join Date: 2016-04-14 Member: 215772Members
    Therius wrote: »
    To be honest, the best fades usually try to kill the marine as fast as possible without blinking in between swipes. If you're fading against a good marine, blinking around the marine has only a small effect on their aim; they will hit you pretty well regardless. The small gain in disorienting your opponent is far outweighed by the disadvantage of making the fight longer, giving the marine more chances of getting shots out. If you watch pro fades in competitive matches, they go in, start swiping and depending on the hits they land and the shots they receive, they either finish the marine off or disengage completely.

    Doesn't matter since balancing the game around competitive play is not what the PDT intends. #RIPNSL
    Also you're wrong, dodging is an essential part of playing fade, you just need to know how. Any high level walkerfades just knew how and when to walk'em. Immobile fades will always get shredded by a good marine, while it's much harder to hit a blinking fade (IF HE KNOWS HOW TO DODGE). Most of the time you won't be able to kill a rine before his lmg mag is emptied anyway... shotguns are a different matter, you'll also need to dodgeblink shotgun marines differently and will probably need your team to help you out anyway.
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    edited May 2016
    Then we'll have to agree to disagree. It all depends on the marine you're playing against. Against a pub marine, you can easily bait their shots by blinking around and getting that one swipe in after every blink, but against a crackshot you're going to take most of that damage regardless, but now you're giving them a lot more time to kill you. In pubs, I personally feel that these blink-and-swipe fades are the easiest to kill; every swipe they land, they get a shotgun blast in return, but a marine can withstand more swipes than a fade can withstand meatshots. Conversely, if they get the first swipe in and just stick to my skin, I need absolutely perfect shots to have enough time to kill them.

    Focus might change all this, though. I'm not sure if +50% damage is enough to change things and I haven't tested it yet, but at least in NS1 where focus was guaranteed to kill a marine in 2 hits and having a halved attack speed made it natural to only do hit and run swipes.
  • AliteAlite Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60188Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Therius wrote: »
    Then we'll have to agree to disagree. It all depends on the marine you're playing against. Against a pub marine, you can easily bait their shots by blinking around and getting that one swipe in after every blink, but against a crackshot you're going to take most of that damage regardless, but now you're giving them a lot more time to kill you. In pubs, I personally feel that these blink-and-swipe fades are the easiest to kill; every swipe they land, they get a shotgun blast in return, but a marine can withstand more swipes than a fade can withstand meatshots. Conversely, if they get the first swipe in and just stick to my skin, I need absolutely perfect shots to have enough time to kill them.

    Focus might change all this, though. I'm not sure if +50% damage is enough to change things and I haven't tested it yet, but at least in NS1 where focus was guaranteed to kill a marine in 2 hits and having a halved attack speed made it natural to only do hit and run swipes.

    That's why I said a good fade will chain blinks and swipes perfectly so that it takes basically the same amount of time to kill the marine had he just walkerfaded. I mean, fact is fact, an immobile fade is much easier to hit (with a sg of lmg regardless), and even a really good shot will always have much higher accuracy vs a walker fade, which is why you can't just walkerfade every engagement.

    And regarding your last statement, at least in competitive, walker fading an sg is a horrible idea because that marine will be getting medded, so you're taking at least 2 meat shots before you kill him, which is almost enough to kill you. Yes, to kill you the marine needs to land all his shots, but if you miss ONE swipe, you're 100% dead. And that's not even taking into account how easy it is to trap a life form doing retarded shit like that.
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    I would like to see this magical fade of yours who can blink around the marine and still land a swipe every 0.5 seconds.

    And the point of what you have dubbed "walker fading" (which is not at all what I'm suggesting) is to either stick to the skin and kill the marine quickly after they fail to land a shot, or immediately disengage and make the judgement call of whether to re-engage or retreat to heal. You're overpolarising the situation by suggesting that a fade missing their swipe is dead; there is no obligation to stick around if the marine is not going down and has landed a shot.

    As to your last statement: by what logic is it easier to trap a fade whose style is to make the fight as short as possible as opposed to a fade choosing to dance around the room?
  • AliteAlite Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60188Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2016
    Therius wrote: »
    I would like to see this magical fade of yours who can blink around the marine and still land a swipe every 0.5 seconds.

    And the point of what you have dubbed "walker fading" (which is not at all what I'm suggesting) is to either stick to the skin and kill the marine quickly after they fail to land a shot, or immediately disengage and make the judgement call of whether to re-engage or retreat to heal. You're overpolarising the situation by suggesting that a fade missing their swipe is dead; there is no obligation to stick around if the marine is not going down and has landed a shot.

    As to your last statement: by what logic is it easier to trap a fade whose style is to make the fight as short as possible as opposed to a fade choosing to dance around the room?

    Try it yourself, it's doable if you land your swipes, takes prestty much the same amount of time.

    I don't want to get into a huge argument about theoretical situations, when I read your post, I understood that you were basically saying it's better to walker fade since you can kill your opponent faster. My point is doing that will make you take way more damage than you need to, thus why you shouldn't do it, that's what my point boils down to. If that's not what you meant in your post, fair enough, clearly I misunderstood. Otherwise agree to disagree like you said I guess.

    And my last statement was also related to walkerfading, it's much easier to trap a lifeform that takes more damage than it should in it's engagement, it's only logical.

  • StarkStark Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186336Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Therius wrote: »
    I would like to see this magical fade of yours who can blink around the marine and still land a swipe every 0.5 seconds.

    And the point of what you have dubbed "walker fading" (which is not at all what I'm suggesting) is to either stick to the skin and kill the marine quickly after they fail to land a shot, or immediately disengage and make the judgement call of whether to re-engage or retreat to heal. You're overpolarising the situation by suggesting that a fade missing their swipe is dead; there is no obligation to stick around if the marine is not going down and has landed a shot.

    As to your last statement: by what logic is it easier to trap a fade whose style is to make the fight as short as possible as opposed to a fade choosing to dance around the room?

    The gist of the idea is blink to the side/past the marine and swipe them as you do, then make a quick 180 and blink past them again + swipe and repeat. When done well the marine doesn't have time to react/is very hard pressed to keep up, and if you land all your swipes it's almost no contest.

    Keeping up momentum is very important (as I'm sure you know). When doing this blink + swipe + 180 and repeat tactic, if you keep your momentum up it makes this sort of "pendulum" motion much more effective. I just recently started getting the hang of it. While I was learning it I often got stuck on the ground (I think because I wasn't using spacebar enough) and lost all forward speed/momentum, making me a fish in a barrel so to speak. Sure, if you're able to catch the marine by surprise and land all your swipes while walking it can be effective. But for every moment you aren't in motion you're an easier target not only because you are easier to track, but also because you have to take some time to regain your speed, increasing your chances of being pinched. I think this is what Alite was getting at. I'm not a super awesome fade or anything, but these are some basic realities I've discovered over 2k+ hours.
  • lhooqlhooq 666 Join Date: 2016-01-05 Member: 210940Members
    You can disable the health bars in the options by setting "Show enemy health" to false ;)

    Needs to be fixed to turn off your player models health bar, not all other players....

  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    edited May 2016
    Still haven't had a chance to play with the new focus ability and haven't used the flamethrower.

    But generally enjoying 300 and wanted to thank all those working to deliver these updates.

    As a side note, haven't really seen many rookies around from the sale. Are there ads out?
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    edited May 2016
    Oh man supa you're missing out.. Focus is amazing. Especially if you're like me and prefer a hit and run play style.

    Be sure to try focus lerk... It's great.
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