UWE & Competitive

2

Comments

  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Wob wrote: »
    Wyzcrak wrote:
    Jokes are risky, sometimes. I've been burned before after making jokes. The forum rules don't belabor what is and isn't "jokes", so I won't. You either figure out the boundaries after multiple moderation actions, or you don't.

    Wow, that seems like the best way of dealing with this possible. "Stop having fun. If you want to have fun, you'll figure out what's allowed and what not after a few bans. Maybe."
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2016
    Alite wrote: »
    ...competitive attitude...
    IronHorse wrote: »
    ...we're sensitive flowers...

    I tried competitive and did gathers a long time ago. I even managed to get on a div 1 team back in beta, although I really shouldn't of been skill wise at the time. I have done two newcomer tournaments which I found to be enjoyable.

    I want to have an outlet for higher skilled games. I often get annoyed with pub skill levels. I respect what competitive ns2 is. I want to participate.

    What keeps me from playing in a team, or gathers is the attitude. I am not speaking about toxic players, of which there are not all that many in comp. I am speaking about the negativity coming from many players in the comp community.

    It is not that they call me names, or make fun of my skill, or anything like that. I could care less. Being around that negativity is not fun. It reminded me of my old middle school friends who constantly complained about the most trivial of things. I am not saying comp players complain about trivial things, or are middle school kids, but the negativity expressed is the same.

    There are players I liked who went into competitive and picked up that negativity that I can not be around anymore. There are other players I know that tried competitive like me and also could not take the negativity, some realized it sooner than others. I know a lot of comp players who are great people but when with other comp players express that negativity. Not every competitive player expresses this negativity.

    You may say that I can find that in other games, and that is true. That does not mean the negativity needs to be in NS2. You can say that you can find it in life, which is true. I avoid those kinds of people, and if provoked, tell them what they are like.

    You may call it a competitive attitude, being toxic, or being salty but that is not it. It is being negative. There is being competitive and being negative. They are not inherently the same thing. Something is wrong with the culture of our competitive community. I call it negativity. Regardless of its name, it is poor behavior.

    I want to participate in competitive play. I am even told that the most toxic of players are now banned. I have been meaning to try gathers again because of that. I am just too reluctant to spend what time I am gaming with players that I can not have a good time with.

    Don't mistake me for asking for a safe space. I hate that safe space crap that has been going around. That is not what I am getting at.

    The competitive community has needed to change. They could have a lot more players in competitive if the culture wasn't so negative. The sad part is that it looks like the competitive community is going to self destruct instead.
  • migalskimigalski Boston Join Date: 2014-07-02 Member: 197181Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Or you could make a team/find a team that was completely negative? Not every team was the same. You would never find that on good teams such as Lucky Chams, Vanquish. Every person is different, every team is different. If you can't handle some negativity however you really shouldn't play competitive, most players play to win, if you happen to lose some 1v1's that you shouldn't or make a dumb play and cost a phase gate, well you just screwed your team over, and when you're trying to win, it sucks.

    And more often than not those toxic players would be their own downfall for the team.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2016
    It is not just some negativity. It is A LOT of negativity. It is not even that I was the target of the negativity. I want to be 100% clear that it has little to do with how I personally have been treated. As I said, I could care less about that. Personal attacks may be apart of it, but it not all of it.

    You don't seem to understand what I mean by negativity or how prevalent it is. Negativity is just not fun to be around be it in competitive ns2 or a bus ride home.

  • RevanCoranaRevanCorana Join Date: 2015-08-14 Member: 207125Members
    Tinki wrote: »
    What you heard on this forum was the last death ratel of a dying community receiving a fatal blow, ..
    Tinki the oracle
  • TinkiTinki Join Date: 2013-12-03 Member: 189715Members
    edited May 2016
    gg hf :)


    Edit : oh and it's called an analogy
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Pelargir wrote: »
    That is really unfair. The atmosphere in the NSL hasn't always shown 'a lot of' negativity. It has been indeed true those last months but most of the lifetime of the NSL proves otherwise.
    If I did not make it clear enough in my first post, I don't mean it is all of comp, but in my experience it is very prevalent. I am just one man with one opinion. What has been seen the last few months is just the extreme of what I have seen for years.
  • _mod_mod New Zealand Join Date: 2013-11-01 Member: 188922Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited May 2016
    Nordic wrote: »
    Pelargir wrote: »
    That is really unfair. The atmosphere in the NSL hasn't always shown 'a lot of' negativity. It has been indeed true those last months but most of the lifetime of the NSL proves otherwise.
    If I did not make it clear enough in my first post, I don't mean it is all of comp, but in my experience it is very prevalent. I am just one man with one opinion. What has been seen the last few months is just the extreme of what I have seen for years.

    You've put effort to say what sort of attitude and behaviour it isn't but you haven't been very explicit in what you actually mean.
    Are you talking about attitudes like players getting uninvested in a game because say, tactically a team has lost the battle because marines/aliens have held res for too long?
    A lot of players end up reading the game in a way that's different to the pub attitude. Life forms down or key structures destroyed are times when people feel like they're pressing the attack but sometimes it's already GG because one team has quietly teched up to end game on 5+ rts while the fight's been on your territory and losing their forward base meant time for them to come back with jp's etc. to finish the job.

    I remember someone saying that if a game isn't clearly won by 15 minutes then both teams have screwed up. It's an interesting outlook but not one pub players are going to consider when they regularly play long games.
    But over lots of shorter games against players you come to know very well; people tend to start making long form reads even in places they shouldn't.

    In any case player psyche is always important in a competitive game. How many skilled players/teams win matches by not just playing the field but the players as well? Quite a number I'm sure.
  • OtsOts Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Members, Constellation
    Nordic wrote: »
    wall of text***********
    I'll echo what _mod says, you say a lot yet so little. Such a huge post with nothing but vague remarks to "negativity". Why not demand for world peace while at it?


    I ventured to comp NS1 over 10 years ago, and have since been playing various different games with the people from this scene. Haven't touched NS2 seriously in over a year, it's sad that from last nights experiment pubs we did, performance looks actually stellar and what it should've been 3 years ago. In 15 hours i will put all my excess hours to Overwatch. With the same friends (and some new) i've gotten from competitive Natural Selection.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Ots wrote: »
    Such a huge post with nothing but vague remarks to "negativity". Why not demand for world peace while at it?

    Not sure, but this may be part of it
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members
    edited May 2016
    d0ped0g wrote: »
    I demand a trial by NS2:Combat!

    fucking great wordplay
    edit: how many times has wob been banned this week and can we get a leaderboard coded @moultano
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Pelargir wrote: »
    That is really unfair. The atmosphere in the NSL hasn't always shown 'a lot of' negativity.
    I am tired of these straw man arguments.. did nordic, poneh, or me ever say the NSL has "always shown" anything?
    No.. we are individuals giving our personal anecdotal experiences.

    There really is no room to argue with such subjective accounts... so I understand why so many are attempting to clarify for others with "it's really not that bad" or "it's just a competitive attitude" or "those players exist everywhere".. which is fine, but there's just no arguing with our individual impressions and experiences as they're our opinion.

    I am sure that's a hard opinion to just accept, because it implies that there was a flaw when it came to bringing more people into competitive environments.. maybe it wasn't all sunshine, rainbows and friends for those who attempted. But IMHO your time would be better spent addressing the specific bad experiences with suggestions on how to deal with it, avoid it entirely, report it so it can be fixed etc. and just generally recognizing that it does exist, at least in the perception of certain individuals - instead of attempting to use what I consider to be weak excuses for that behavior (those quotes) and strawman arguments. I suppose it matters less now that the scene has left, however, so maybe its too late anyways.. but addressing that such an experience occurs for some (and that it's undesirable) would at least be a start.
  • TinkiTinki Join Date: 2013-12-03 Member: 189715Members
    Yeah guys, you don't need to argue about subjectives opinions. In fact i'm going to argue about how arguing about a sujective argument is useless, not because i like arguing but because i think it's important to see that, with argumentation, we can progress and build a better world. Now with that said i think my opinion is more important than yours, that's why you shouldn't argue with me (or argue to the fact that you are not allowed to argue with me). Happy arguing everybody !
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Tinki wrote: »
    that's why you shouldn't argue with me (or argue to the fact that you are not allowed to argue with me).
    You really shouldn't attempt to put words in people's mouths when the post just before yours clarifies, especially in the final sentence.

    Your sarcasm is a great example of another weak argument, that avoids addressing certain user's points, for the record.

  • PelargirPelargir Join Date: 2013-07-02 Member: 185857Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Forum staff
    IronHorse wrote: »
    I am tired of these straw man arguments.. did nordic, poneh, or me ever say the NSL has "always shown" anything?
    No.. we are individuals giving our personal anecdotal experiences.

    Did I say you did?
  • ZeframZefram Join Date: 2004-05-11 Member: 28611Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts, Retired Community Developer
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Pelargir wrote: »
    IronHorse wrote: »
    I am tired of these straw man arguments.. did nordic, poneh, or me ever say the NSL has "always shown" anything?
    No.. we are individuals giving our personal anecdotal experiences.

    Did I say you did?
    You implied we did, yes, by responding with that as your rebuttal.

    Recap : Users say they haven't had a good experience. Your only response is that it's unfair to say such because it's not always like that.
    They never said that was the case, and in fact were pretty clear about it being a personal, anecdotal experience.
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
    Zefram wrote: »
    Let's call the whole thing off

    Wow, this is actually one of my fav Satchmo song ! Eetheir ... Either .... Ahh

    Wanna ride some good energic mood ? Watch this !

  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Very well said, thank you.

    I wasn't even aware that one could report that behavior to anyone, (where would one do this btw?) I just took it as an accepted part of the culture.
    Maybe if this were to have been more apparent to newcomers there might've been a higher retention rate in that community? No one can say for certain I suppose.

  • ZavaroZavaro Tucson, Arizona Join Date: 2005-02-14 Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Very well said, thank you.

    I wasn't even aware that one could report that behavior to anyone, (where would one do this btw?) I just took it as an accepted part of the culture.
    Maybe if this were to have been more apparent to newcomers there might've been a higher retention rate in that community? No one can say for certain I suppose.

    There is an issues tab in your ENSL dashboard which allows people to report people as well as site issues, I believe. There are also moderators you can talk to, which is how those concerns are primarily addressed. A few of the strongly toxic players were banned from playing gathers for their behavior in the past, so it is something that has been done.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Tinki wrote: »
    And ENSL had a better player retention than the game.

    Breaking news, guys!
    People that commit to playing a game competitively are less likely to leave than those who picked it up in a steam sale!
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    Tinki wrote: »
    And ENSL had a better player retention than the game.

    Breaking news, guys!
    People that commit to playing a game competitively are less likely to leave than those who picked it up in a steam sale!

    Oh my god that is just so amazing!!!!

    Mind = blown

  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
    Tinki wrote: »
    And ENSL had a better player retention than the game.

    Breaking news, guys!
    People that commit to playing a game competitively are less likely to leave than those who picked it up in a steam sale!

    Wow! Now I undersantd why my rasta neighbour is still on marijuana while I quited smoking years ago
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