Combining Cloaking with Aura?!

FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
From Trello: Split Silence+Cloak from Phantom. Merge Cloak+Aura Upgrades and add an audio cue when an alien de-cloaks.

You realize this will make res-biters fully-invincible without a scan? I'm sure there's more wrong with this idea.
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Comments

  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members
    edited May 2016
    I can't believe you missed the first step in making cysts obsolete!

    On topic, I think its best to keep them separate as three abilities and think of another for crag and shift hives. A third layer of armour that works like mucous for crag? Focus for shift?

    For devel.
  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members
    No fingers to copy-paste a link?
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    edited May 2016
    The reasoning behind this was that we wanted to avoid splitting the upgrade into 3 separate upgrades (cloak, silence, aura) - but cloak combined with silence makes for too powerful of an ambushing tool leading to "free kills" and otherwise frustrating game-play (the ability to be cloaked on a wall while a marine corner checks, and then hop off the wall at full speed behind him while being totally silent).

    Merging Aura and Cloak was the best short term solution we came up with for this. You still get cloak, it's still a powerful upgrade because it also comes with Aura, but it has a little bit less of an impact as an ambushing tool because you cannot be completely silent with it.

    It's an experimental change we want to try first before splitting the upgrades. Ideally, we can rework shade hive a little bit and improve it's overall viability as an opener. Any ideas for shade hive are welcome!
  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members
    Thanks for the link.

    Who uses shade hive anyways? Shade hive is broken currently; you just can't make it much worse.

    About this specific issue: cloak is too slow for biting res. But it may be cost-efficient for making rush tunnels in difficult conditions.

    Can't tell, the ultimate test is how the shade hive will look as first or second one.
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    I certainly prefer ADDING upgrades to shift and crag. But neither here nor there.

    You're combining the other 2 upgrades into something that's too powerful of an economy tool. I'm not concerned about this to the extent I was about power surge, since shade is terrible as first upgrade and will cause a slow painful marine victory for aliens 86.5% of the time anyways and nothing will change that.

    But too powerful ambushing becomes too powerful hiding and dodging.

    There's NOTHING wrong with having a virtually useless upgrade. It will have it's time and place, such as a gorge is terrified so he takes cloaking for 1res to try to save his life. Not a big deal. You're considering redemption, no?
  • DilligafDilligaf Join Date: 2014-05-25 Member: 196238Members
    edited May 2016
  • IeptBarakatIeptBarakat The most difficult name to speak ingame. Join Date: 2009-07-10 Member: 68107Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow
    Isn't Silence supposed to be in with the movement upgrades since the main issue was celerity combined with silence? In ns1, Cloaking and Silence came at the cost of lacking either Celerity or Adrenaline which kept it from being too strong. Putting Silence in with the sensory upgrade is still going to allow aliens to close the distance at max speed before a marine has a chance to react.
  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Did I miss Shade Hive first becoming the new meta?
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    If an uncloak sound were to be added to the cloak+aura combo, ambushing would get impossible for roosting lerks, who just want aura. Skulks would have to wiggle in order to not cloak. That seems silly to me.

    I would scratch cloak as an upgrade all together.

    It is unfun to play against, because even if you check every corner properly, you still may get ambushed, and therefor heavily rely on your commander. There could still be shades and the shades cloak could even be buffed, e.g. that it cloaks 100% and even removes sounds emitted from cloaked entities. Shades are somewhat predictable. You can anticipate shades and counter cloak, which doesn't make it as cheap as cloaking everywhere.

    I don't really understand what the problem with 3 seperate upgrades is though.
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    Shade hive is already considered the weakest of the three and now you're hitting it with the nerf bat to make it even worse...

    I mean I'll always go silence over phantom since the majority of high skill players can spot a level 3 cloaked skulk that isn't moving (in a dark corner even) as if they had bright flashing neon lights... This just seems like it will push shade hive even further out.. There are too many games played now where alien comm won't get shade until they have EVERY other upgrade because "shade sucks"
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    rantology wrote: »
    The reasoning behind this was that we wanted to avoid splitting the upgrade into 3 separate upgrades (cloak, silence, aura) - but cloak combined with silence makes for too powerful of an ambushing tool leading to "free kills" and otherwise frustrating game-play (the ability to be cloaked on a wall while a marine corner checks, and then hop off the wall at full speed behind him while being totally silent).

    Merging Aura and Cloak was the best short term solution we came up with for this. You still get cloak, it's still a powerful upgrade because it also comes with Aura, but it has a little bit less of an impact as an ambushing tool because you cannot be completely silent with it.

    It's an experimental change we want to try first before splitting the upgrades. Ideally, we can rework shade hive a little bit and improve it's overall viability as an opener. Any ideas for shade hive are welcome!

    There is no reason to not have 3 possible upgrades. I am pretty sure if rookies can handle 2 upgrade options, they can also handle 3.

    3 upgrades for every tech path would be nice indeed.
  • develdevel Join Date: 2014-09-13 Member: 198444Members
    This upgrades... illusion of choice and annoying buttons to click.

    Need to add more lifeforms and allow changing them faster, so there'll be counters by tech-switching like in StarCraft.
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members

    There is no reason to not have 3 possible upgrades. I am pretty sure if rookies can handle 2 upgrade options, they can also handle 3.

    3 upgrades for every tech path would be nice indeed.

    There's a server out there that has shade split like that... If i remember correctly shift hive had celerity adrenaline and feral? (not sure on the name but it was higher damage with slower attack speed.) while shade had phantom silence and aura.. Something like that it's been months since I've played there..

    It was great fun though.

    I'd really love to see feral (?) upgrade added to the main game..

  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    I actually think this is an interesting idea; except for the audio thingy, that seems like nonsense. What's the point of cloaking - hiding - if the moment you decloak you basically shout "HELLO IM HERE"? And no, no matter how silent you make it, above a certain skill level it will have this effect.
    I guess it's to counteract cloaked, sneaky skulks getting aura, cloak AND silent movement; however, there has to be something better than this bandaid fix.
    rantology wrote: »
    best short term solution we came up with

    Sadly I'm noticing a trend lately :I
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    Oh my god i didn't even notice the audio part of it.

    So basically cloaking will be 100% useless..
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    Dragon had added whip upgrades (offensive ups) to NS2:C for.. some reason. They were pretty cool and made a lot of sense. You know some damage buff (fades 2 swipe A0), vampirism (better tank than cara at person risk)

    Stop removing shit! Just add things damn
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Frozen wrote: »
    Dragon had added whip upgrades (offensive ups) to NS2:C for.. some reason. They were pretty cool and made a lot of sense. You know some damage buff (fades 2 swipe A0), vampirism (better tank than cara at person risk)

    Stop removing ****! Just add things damn

    If you want to add upgrades and splite shade into three, I suggest focus for shift and hunger for crag. (They way the were in Combat, which is my only frame of reference here.) This would probably screw with balance and require extensive finetuning, though. Also shade would pale even more compared to these other upgrades.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Most pub players still stuck in release build shift-first-only meta and then talk about shade hive like it's WAY worse than the alternatives. Hilarious.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Most pub players still stuck in release build shift-first-only meta and then talk about shade hive like it's WAY worse than the alternatives. Hilarious.

    I consider myself a shade fan, but even then I realize that late game, fades and skulks without celerity/onos and everything else without carapace are just crippled. You can only really go shade for the fun of it if your team is good enough to win before the late game - exactly where aliens shine.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    edited May 2016
  • ZavaroZavaro Tucson, Arizona Join Date: 2005-02-14 Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    It's as @joshhh said. Cloaking on it's own isn't great. Personally, I don't like this change either. While I feel that silence and aura are extremely powerful, perhaps cloaking alone could use a significant buff.

    As @IronHorse states, cloaking is pretty bad because you can see the player at all times, regardless of movement. Perhaps a player should be completely invisible when not moving, and still "cloaked" or partially cloaked while moving?

    If aura is considered not good enough and an issue, then increase the distance for it. It's really, really good.

    I don't find that merging two dissimilar abilities together makes much sense, especially considering that aura is already intensely powerful, and especially when coming from the (yes, overpowered) phantom hybrid.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Zavaro wrote: »
    It's as @joshhh said. Cloaking on it's own isn't great. Personally, I don't like this change either. While I feel that silence and aura are extremely powerful, perhaps cloaking alone could use a significant buff.

    As @IronHorse states, cloaking is pretty bad because you can see the player at all times, regardless of movement. Perhaps a player should be completely invisible when not moving, and still "cloaked" or partially cloaked while moving?

    If aura is considered not good enough and an issue, then increase the distance for it. It's really, really good.

    I don't find that merging two dissimilar abilities together makes much sense, especially considering that aura is already intensely powerful, and especially when coming from the (yes, overpowered) phantom hybrid.

    The problem with making cloak 100% effective is that it would be impossible to detect without a scan. I think the current implementation works quite well... it's just not as useful/powerful as the alternatives, or rather, you will miss the alternatives more late game.
  • ZavaroZavaro Tucson, Arizona Join Date: 2005-02-14 Member: 41174Members, Super Administrators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    The problem with making cloak 100% effective is that it would be impossible to detect without a scan. I think the current implementation works quite well... it's just not as useful/powerful as the alternatives, or rather, you will miss the alternatives more late game.

    Silence is 100% effective, though, whereas cloak is never really all that effective, given that you can always been seen. You show up visually, you show up on the map, etc. You're never actually all that cloaked.

  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members

    The problem with making cloak 100% effective is that it would be impossible to detect without a scan. I think the current implementation works quite well... it's just not as useful/powerful as the alternatives, or rather, you will miss the alternatives more late game.

    But on the flip side they have to remain stationary in order to remain impossible to detect. Once they start moving they have the shimmer, and if they run they're not cloaked at all.

    Completely 100% invisible aliens while stationary would make phantom actually useful in certain situations. (especially for Gorges) Although having a "sound effect" to scream out "HEY I'M HERE TURN AROUND" to any Marine you may ambush kind of defeats the purpose of it entirely.

    If cloak and silence are being split then the very act of moving towards your prey will make enough noise to alert them. Adding in another sound effect on top of that is just a horrible idea.

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2016
    I am just going to post this here and see how it effects this discussion.
    r2LIAeC.png
    Also, this graph was made by Remi not me. Credit where credit is due.
  • migalskimigalski Boston Join Date: 2014-07-02 Member: 197181Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Why not just remove cloak? it really doesn't do anything..
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