What is wrong with this community?
dePARA
Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Seriously, while everyone is bitchig around about some minor changes in the past our 2 main subcommunitys are experts in this.
The NS2large community is whining about the "dead" of there server while it is full much longer than most other servers.
The Compscene is whining about upcoming changes that might break there compmod but refuse to use a simple workaround given to them by the devs.
For both its clear: The Devs are killing the game.
I tell you something:
You are killing NS2.
You are killing it with organized negative reviews, killing it cause you dont want to spend a few minutes in the week to download or copy a version that didnt break compmod or just playing vanilla, killing it by telling everyone how bad the dev team is and ignoring the fact that you still getting upgrades after all the years (something like this rare these days btw).
And this: "They dont listen to us".
Why should they, i wont either listen to people that reacts like little childs.
You dont like a change or a tweak? Well, maybe another person like it or dont care.
I dont like large servers for example, well its more i hate them. Since 2 years and nonstop argue against them they are still there.
Same with some changes in the past or the fact the hive skill system is still broken.
But it looks like, i have to deal with these facts.
And when there is a workaround available for a feauture that i dont like, well, i would use it.
I still love this game and its always great to come back for a while after a break.
But to see what happened to this community is kinda shocking, really.
Especial when you are not member of a subcommunity.
The NS2large community is whining about the "dead" of there server while it is full much longer than most other servers.
The Compscene is whining about upcoming changes that might break there compmod but refuse to use a simple workaround given to them by the devs.
For both its clear: The Devs are killing the game.
I tell you something:
You are killing NS2.
You are killing it with organized negative reviews, killing it cause you dont want to spend a few minutes in the week to download or copy a version that didnt break compmod or just playing vanilla, killing it by telling everyone how bad the dev team is and ignoring the fact that you still getting upgrades after all the years (something like this rare these days btw).
And this: "They dont listen to us".
Why should they, i wont either listen to people that reacts like little childs.
You dont like a change or a tweak? Well, maybe another person like it or dont care.
I dont like large servers for example, well its more i hate them. Since 2 years and nonstop argue against them they are still there.
Same with some changes in the past or the fact the hive skill system is still broken.
But it looks like, i have to deal with these facts.
And when there is a workaround available for a feauture that i dont like, well, i would use it.
I still love this game and its always great to come back for a while after a break.
But to see what happened to this community is kinda shocking, really.
Especial when you are not member of a subcommunity.
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Welcome to Problem Selection 2 (select your problem and cause drama)
Also:
"You dont like a change or a tweak? Well, maybe another person like it or dont care."
"I dont like large servers for example, well its more i hate them. Since 2 years and nonstop argue against them they are still there."
Well then
I mean seriously they've optimized the game for larger servers and even raised the player limit so they don't have to run a hacked.exe...
But no.. Classifying large as its own game mode like it should've been long ago is "sabotaging" it...
I didn't think they'd go through with such a ridiculous and childish threat.. But they did. NS2 has gone from "very positive" to "mixed" due to them making false negative reviews to punish UWE and further kill the community, because they don't care one iota about NS2 outside of their own server..
They played and enjoyed the game for hundreds if not thousands of hours.. Are STILL playing on large servers... Yet they're writing negative reviews because they didn't get exactly what they want...
So extremely shameful.
They've already done enough damage with the reviews, so everyone needs to shut up and play with workarounds or not or whatever.
But there is a difference between nonstop argue and organize negative reviews.
There is difference between pointing out things and refuse to play cause people dont want to use an existing workaround.
Peope told me that im dividing the communitys by telling my oppinions, its kinda funny that one person can do this btw.
But what happened the last weeks is far above dividing.
I know, this thread would end in an pro/against large server discussion like most we saw recently with the same people spamming agree and disagree.
I was only shocked that the comp scene is doing the same shit now after we survived the large server drama.
Well, im awaiting the "This is result of dev choices"-blabla from usual suspects now.
@devel
You are right for sure.
Can a mod close this before it ends in the typical way.
THX
We're not cutting off discussion yet but we will not hesitate to do so if anyone starts making personal attacks or towards groups in particular. Stay polite and try not to foster negativity and denigrate some groups in our community. It'd only lead to bringing more conflict and drama within the community.
Except they're still playing and enjoying the game.. Large servers are still filled to max capacity every day.. So they are essentially lying in those bad reviews..
That's the part that irks me so much... The way they lie and/or twist the truth... For example how they were all up in arms about the update killing the server, only to later admit that the server was really killed by a random ddos'ing loser... not the update...
I read a few of the new false reviews and they were nothing but lies and half truths twisted in a way to make UWE look like a horrible dev that doesn't care about their community.
They claim to care about NS2 and that they want the community to grow... yet at the same time they're leaving misleading false reviews in order to hurt UWE and prevent the community from growing...
Reviewing the game based on a mod doesn't do the actual game justice. If you have problems finding your mod in the mod tab, well may an eye doctor help you... and if you still don't find it and have other gripes with how the mod is not officially supported, you could always start a thread in the creation section where all the mods could be nicely discussed.
People have put blood sweat and tears into the game and some have achieved more than the cdt/pdt have ever done (ns2+ comp mod, large server communitys etc) and now uwe is breaking the mods on a weekly basis and closing the doors to communitys- is it fair that the community members who worked out of love are now left to fix the code every week and have to constantly fight their corner?
The ensl has had to stop mid season which leaves 140+ people extreamly annoyed and i can gurantee that you wont see a penny from the majority who would have normally been the first to dig into their pockets for new skins.
There is nothing to be felt but regret and anger towards uwe for for this continued development as it has had nothing but a negative impact on the existing community and now it seems it has literally been the nail in the coffin for the competitive scene.
I think the cards were marked ever since they tried to cash in on combat, maybe its time to let ns2 go and by looking at the steam charts it seems it may be the right time.
GG
And frankly, you should cut off this right now, the chances something positive emerge from such a start are lower than win the national lotery.
Exactly, I submit the notion of @Pelagir and @Wake. Sentence: Should be forced to bake cookies for everyone!
Regarding this, @Simba, one of the NSL admins summed up the reasons they do not use this 'workaround'. I'm copy-pasting his own article here. You've probably read the newspost already but it might also give some information to those who do not go across http://www.ensl.org/
"If I bold the word mod enough maybe he'll think I have a point."
People aren't reviewing negatively based on a mod, as their mods are still functional. They are reviewing the game based on a change officially added by UWE that in the end makes it harder for them to enjoy their mods, which may seem petty or selfish to some people but it is entirely within their right to do so.
Its not the 1st time that a forum mod says "Im sinking this thread" but nothing happen after that.
Like i mentioned in my 2nd post:
Feel free todo it NOW.
Maybe it was a mistake to post what i see as normal pub player.
If so, im sorry.
A thread, whatever its initial goal is, can always serve the community and bring some debate. But don't worry, we'll not hesitate to close it if necessary.
It was not really gold else there would be more players. At least that's the reasoning behind the PDT.
That's exactly why I don't understand why isn't wooza banned already ? He threatened to get his friends to write bad reviews and actually did, we don't need operators trying to compete with UWE especially in a dirty, under the table way.
Maybe if the season didn't have to wait 1 month or so for the modders to unlock their precious creation, it would have started earlier, which is probably a reason why we see last updates incorporating some ns2+ features and compmod balances changes when you think about it.
In the end UWE gets treated like they're as bad as CoD devs and it's sad. (Actually it seems like they get treated worse... Most people these days either ignore CoD altogether or they buy it every year, lie back and happily take being screwed)
I have a number of negatives on my list and a number of positives and sadly the negatives are starting to weigh heavy.
The reason why i have not written a review is because i want to see where this game is heading and want to see how the devs respond to feedback.
And judging by the forum posts the response has not been very professional with concrete answers, all i been seeing is personal vendetta's.
Been waiting for about two years now for some content or features in that time the devs left (That should have been my first reason to post a bad review because basically the game got thrown in the bin) to only try again a year later to reward players with a Tutorial "..." days after release cards and a server filter.
Stop saying this or that community because you all know damn well the game and the speed of development has it's flaws.
Whether that direction is hiding large servers or the recent balance changes, they bought this game full price, and if they don't feel satisfied by the actions the devs are taking it's 100% within their right to warn potential buyers why they think the game just isn't worth it right now.
Personally, I don't even play on large servers, but that change (which I believe is unfair to those server ops and their community) has made me consider leaving a negative review.
And now the recent balance changes, that were both not even asked for AND worst of all unfinished when put into the game (electrifying rts) are honestly leaving me unsatisfied with the game I bought. I mean really, people have been clamoring for the removal of cysts and other game mechanics, and they add stupidities like rt electrification? REALLY?
Not to mention that it seems that they're barely working with the ensl, since these balance changes seem to kill the comp scene every time (I could be wrong about this, maybe they are working a bit more closely with them).
Either way the results speak for themselves, SHITTY decisions leave a part of the community unhappy (large servers), SHITTY balance changes also leave a part of the community unhappy and kill another part of it (comp). Good going, this will for sure increase player numbers...
Hundreds done in a campaign despite thousands of hours of enjoyment is HORRIBLY shortsighted as you are not changing the course of development.. you are just hurting the growth of the community for everyone else along with yourself.
Those reviews weren't even needed as the message was already crystal clear from those upset. You are just self destructing and attempting to take everyone down with you.
Let me reiterate: All that has been accomplished is hurting your fellow community servers and players. Nothing else.
How any one of you can claim to be "for growth" of the game or community after taking such an action is mind numbingly idiotic.
It's like a terrorist shooting hostages and saying to the others, "See it's your government's fault we didn't get what we wanted, so you should be mad at them for your mother being shot".. you have to go through olympic mental gymnastics to believe such misdirection.
If UWE is not able to learn from the feedback that they received, I am sorry, then this game and it's company deserve to go out of business. That's how a market works - you satisfy the customers, or you gtfo.
I've been through enough shitstorms in the internet and it's hurting me in my heart of hearts that here is yet another company that has not learned how to handle them, even worse, they keep escalating them (I saw a moderator or something wish death to a part of the community, lol).
Posts and threads in this forum have been moderated, so the emotions flowed over into a platform that can't be censored - that is the natural flow of things.
Mistakes happen. It is when we learn from them, when we apologize, when we go back on them, only then we excel at the work that we do. All this drama isn't happening because new things have been tried - we love new things, we love new skins, we love new maps - it is happening because these changes have been executed poorly, there has been inadequate communication in the forefront of them, and they generally aren't good changes.
I recently came back to this game - it's a gem - so I have only a blurry idea what exactly happened over the last two years, but I think I can speak for every sane, civilized and just regular decent human being type of player: Let's talk to each other. Let's take feedback serious before it goes to a place that you can't control. Let's not hate the way others play the game, let's cherish the vast range of possibilities (that support themselves) to do so, after all, this is where Natural Selection has it's roots: all this started with a mod.
Wow..
Btw. I came from NS1 and have played... you guessed it on 32 servers and siege servers. So when I bought NS2 I was expecting that as well. If not supported by the vanilla game then by some mods because that is also what was advertised back in the dev blogs - modding API, appreciate where NS came from. And guess what? I was not disappointed. Devs kept their words for the most parts and where they couldn't it was plausible and understandable as to why. That is why I bought the DLCs and copies for friends.
The actual question is: What does it take to turn a fan into someone writing a negative review?
First off though, I like that you are admitting that it is dying.
In this context speaking of death is by no means figuratively or exaggerated. Granted, parts of that player base will migrate and begrudgingly concede to the remaining possibilities to play the game but the rest will be gone for good.
This is not some "stop nerfing the fades" discussion as dePARA wants to degrade it to - this is about willingly sacrificing an established part of the player base for the attempt to recruit new players.
So what are you expecting in a desperate fight for survival? Pity?
Look who's talking! The guy who censors his own posts and call it an outburst. It's been read, everyone knows you want to "see [our] server die a slow and painful death".
Maybe you should stop hating against that very community yourself, if you're so eager on keeping the game alive as whole. But me thinks, all you're really after is saving what you believe is ns2, but not what others believe is also ns2. So stop talking about "hurting the fellow community" when you and other people on this forum do exactly that on a daily basis. This is hypocrisy in it's very essence.
Leaving negative steam reviews is an acceptable way of expressing your feelings about a purchase you made. It doesn't matter how many hours I used the product or how much I am still using it; if I believe that when buying this product, buyers should know that the developer does not give a single shit about their community but merely about recruiting new members, I believe it's actually my duty to inform buyers. Because if I bought the game today, I would expect that the developer is happy not only about me buying the game, but also about me enjoying their product. That's what reviews are for. So stop trying to censor those too.
edit (because I vow for transparency):
Also you comparing those who leave negative reviews to terrorists and kidnappers just shows your incredible disrespect for other members of YOUR community. How about trying to figure out something that helps both sides? There's been multiple suggestions. All of which have been ignored and "our" community of the ns2large players is still left with one dead server that was well populated before the changes. So what on earth do you expect? Just accept, that we are an unwanted part of the community, leave the game we love to die and start playing a shitty vanilla version that I abandoned on after 10 hours? It's my choice what I like about the game and it's anybodys choice which server they want to join. That's why I bought premium version upgrade and all dlcs and even reinforced the game just before the program closed. I was happy with the game, I had a review saying "Recommended" but after seeing how little UWE cares about their community and the hostility in this forum towards suggestions that might help veterans as well...well I can honestly say I do not recommend buying this game. It's my opinion and you have no right to compare me to a terrorist.
@IronHorse ... you should be worried now about direction developers doing right now ... The @Bollwerk says it pretty cerar for whole CDT/PDT and UWE!
___________________
Next to the steam reviews itself (I gave my $money$ don't forget that !): This is false and very true. Negative reviews are here, because "the message was already crystal clear" but devs are not making any action after unwanted change was done (player counter is excluded, as it was already solved!). Playing a bead bug is all response you give to us (players) and some false "mockups" how great future will look ? ... is it your answer? Please step aside and look at and options community have to give message to developers: #1 send a message (was done); #2 make your mod to alter game-play (done); #3 state review (non-moderated by developers) ... #4 abandon game.
If you don't get it, we're all sorry for you. spoiler: take an action ( proposal ? at least revert controversial changes which made peoples angry until you done it right and whole)
I demand respect for our views just as much as I respect your views. I demand that changes are made to what in my view is a segregation of game modes that leads to bleeding out of smaller (and larger) communities outside of ns2 vanilla. "Ns2large" needs the help of the community, because without we will surely fade away.
Even if you don't care for, or even hate ns2large, it should not be in your interest to make it disappear. Because if you care for ns2, you should care for the rest of the community as well. If you don't, this community will fail and with it ns2 will fail. And you will be at fault, not steam reviews warning buyers of the toxic community and ignorant developers, but you who decided to divide the community by picking on the weakened just because it fits your course. THAT is extremely short sighted and will not change the course of development in your favour.
So get your shit together and stop the hatred. Let's reason and work through some of these suggestions that get ns2large back into the default serverbrowser again.
I'm going to attempt to give this a fair and balanced opinion as possible. I feel empathy for both sides of the argument.
All PDT/UWE wish rookies to experience Natural Selection 2 to reflect Charlie @Flayra Cleveland's original game design. This is fine and noble of them as all they want to do is honor Charlie's wishes.
This is a direct quote from Flayra (March 2008) "Our biggest priority is to make sure NS2 is true to the "spirit" of NS. We've spent years refining NS and it would be pretty wasteful to make NS2 if it didn't appeal to the community - our most valuable asset.".
This comment stuck out for me as it feels some of that has been lost from both sides of the conflict.
Their latest changes since PDT was created has been rookie focused as we all know NS2 has a big problem with retaining rookies but this is no fault of their own, NS2 in itself is a hard game to learn, even harder to master. This is what makes NS2 so niche and offers the greatest gameplay experience no other game can hope to match.
But it is also its greatest downfall. This game will never have masses of rookies joining up and you know what? I could live with that. Maybe this game isn't meant to be as commercially successful as other AAA titles but of course wouldn't it be great if it was! We should all stop kidding ourselves that NS2 will appeal to the mass market because let's be fair, that day has been and gone.
People forgot this game was UWE's first official attempt at creating something truly their own and boy did it fail but this is not their fault, it was their first game. Mistakes happened. Bad decisions were made, they realised this and had to move on due to NS2 no longer being financially viable and a new project was needed.
Which brings me to ns2large. ns2large was created the day the binary hack was published (August 10, 2013). This was not UWE's fault and should never of happened, but it did.
What is UWE's fault is allowing this to happen from August 10, 2013 to April 19, 2016.
PATCH 295
UWE/CDT/PDT had nearly 3 years to fix this "problem". Let's reiterate that shall we.
This is equal to 2 years, 8 months and 9 days.
That is a total of 983 days of idleness with the general displeasure, steamchat grumble or even the occasional comment on the forums from time to time. Yet nothing was done about this. This is solely UWE/CDT/PDT's fault. No one else can take responsibility for this.
So what has happened in 983 days? A community within a community has established itself within NS2 with 2 sides of the conflict. A side that wishes to honour Charlie's original game design and a side that has watched a game evolve past what the game's creator had intended. Is this good or bad? That is up to you to decide. My point being is every single day of those 983 days, nothing was done. That's 983 reasons needed to be given in order to justify such a long response?
Once again yes ns2large does not represent gameplay the creator originally intended but did the creator originally intend for the binary exe to be hacked? No, that is a technical flaw that no one saw coming.
One could argue that ns2large leaves a negative impression to rookies, I honestly don't believe so anymore. Is it a mess? Yes but it is organised chaos and extremely subjective to who you are playing with, which can be said about any other server. Is it going to kill performance of my PC? Yes, IF you was playing a toaster PC or was playing NS2 back in 2012, with all the fantastic performance optimisations CDT and in part PDT have made have tweaked this game to a finely tuned experience which negates a lot of these issues. Is it full of lag and redplugs? Yes and no really, it does lag sometimes but not in over exaggerated amount some people have made it out to be, I redplug once every two hours which I experience more in other AAA games than an indie developer which is pretty good going.
The great irony in all of this is that the game by its nature and its very name itself is called "Natural Selection".
natural selection
nounBIOLOGY
the process whereby organisms better adapted to their environment tend to survive and produce more offspring. The theory of its action was first fully expounded by Charles Darwin, and it is now regarded as be the main process that brings about evolution.
Which is an idea the community as a whole seem to struggle.
I don't think UWE are outright set to destroy ns2large however some of their changes do raise a few eyebrows and some reputable good standing members of the this community leaving scorning remarks saying ns2large should die is disappointing at best.
What's even more sad in, of course my own biased opinion, is that I believe, this post is one of the more accurate summaries of the entire situation.
"I only play StarCratft 2 because of SquadronTD and Blizzard doesn't support it, therefor StarCraft 2 is shit"
"I only play CounterStrike because of surf maps and Valve doesnt build surf maps, don't buy CounterStrike, it's shit"
"I only play Dota 2 because of Pudge Wars, Valve doesn't wan't to make it an official game mode and I need to install it from workshop. Everyone write negative reviews"
Ridiculous right? Well that's what happens with NS2 currently. Also apparently one paranoid dude is asking his disciples to write them.
How low can you sink?