Annoying feature? hidden enemy on map.

xtalxtal aka X-rayCat Join Date: 2009-06-28 Member: 67961Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter
edited January 2016 in NS2 General Discussion
I was always wondering. Why hiding enemy is showing up on the map for us? Shouldn't be that turned off? or at least enemy shows up when he's being hit? In some cases it destroys fun and is unintuitive for rookies, cause pro marines will often spot them on minimap beforehand.
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Comments

  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    I think that the nature of line of sight.
    Showing only shotted aliens on the map is unintuitive and makes no sense at all.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    What, and suddenly appearing on the minimap of all marine players in the immediate area when the player in game hasn't even seen you is intuitive?

    Players should only appear on the minimap once the sighting has been confirmed by the player in game, ie, he's hit the alien, or like in battlefield, has a 'spotted' button that highlights on mini map when clicked.

    Either are more intuitive than the current system.
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    At the very least they should have to point the crosshairs in your general direction. Nothing more annoying than being tucked up near the roof in a dark corner (where you likely wouldn't be spotted even if they looked right at you) and having a pro Marine enter the room pre-firing in your direction because the rookies in the room had some bull**** "line of sight that made you show up on the minimap. (yet the rookie wasn't even looking at you!!!)
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I agree with this. Many skulks have died at my hands when they honestly shouldn't have
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think skulks only showing up when you hit them on the minimap for field players is fine. But I think you have to be careful about changing how it works for commanders. Dropping medpacks effectively, heavily relies on your ability to see and anticipate the bites of the aliens.
  • LamboLambo Iceland Join Date: 2012-08-07 Member: 154915Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Also fix players showing up on the map for 3 seconds when close to power nodes thx.
  • AliteAlite Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60188Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I can understand not showing aliens on the minimap if the marine doesn't have LOS on them, but if the marine does it's perfectly reasonable to show them on the minimap, how is that unintuitive? Marines sees alien, alien shows up on minimap, makes perfect sense to me
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2016
    Alite wrote: »
    I can understand not showing aliens on the minimap if the marine doesn't have LOS on them, but if the marine does it's perfectly reasonable to show them on the minimap, how is that unintuitive? Marines sees alien, alien shows up on minimap, makes perfect sense to me

    The problem is that right now a skulk can be behind a marine, where he can not see it and appear on the minimap. Otherwise, yes a marine that has LOS on an alien should show on the minimap.
  • AliteAlite Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60188Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited January 2016
    Nordic wrote: »
    Alite wrote: »
    I can understand not showing aliens on the minimap if the marine doesn't have LOS on them, but if the marine does it's perfectly reasonable to show them on the minimap, how is that unintuitive? Marines sees alien, alien shows up on minimap, makes perfect sense to me

    The problem is that right now a skulk can be behind a marine, where he can not see it and appear on the minimap. Otherwise, yes a marine that has LOS on an alien should show on the minimap.

    Yes I'm aware, I was mainly responding to whoever said the alien should only show up on the minimap if he's damaged, that just makes no sense to me
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Alite wrote: »
    Nordic wrote: »
    Alite wrote: »
    I can understand not showing aliens on the minimap if the marine doesn't have LOS on them, but if the marine does it's perfectly reasonable to show them on the minimap, how is that unintuitive? Marines sees alien, alien shows up on minimap, makes perfect sense to me

    The problem is that right now a skulk can be behind a marine, where he can not see it and appear on the minimap. Otherwise, yes a marine that has LOS on an alien should show on the minimap.

    Yes I'm aware, I was mainly responding to whoever said the alien should only show up on the minimap if he's damaged, that just makes no sense to me

    Its usually too late by then :smiley:
  • deathshrouddeathshroud Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71291Members
    ths 1 change will make it much harder for marines
  • SamG2020SamG2020 Bristol UK | Vancouver Canada Join Date: 2015-11-24 Member: 209449Members
    I'm glad to hear that this is being looked at. It has always felt to me like a significant and perhaps even game-changing feature that benefits experienced players to the detriment of newcomers. I remember being on the receiving end of this while I was learning the game as a skulk, and it feels the same way as when playing against somebody with a wallhack in a traditional FPS. Then I found out about the mechanic myself and my K/D shot up massively as a marine because I started to exploit it too.

    I do like the idea of manual markers instead. They could be set via team communications such as the existing "alien spotted", except provide a marker on the map at that player's location for the team to see perhaps with a waypoint style sound for the team to hear. There are many times that I have heard a gorge sneaking around near me and wished that I could flag my location on the map specifically with a little gorge warning. Similar for when you hear a sneaky phase gate or power node being built. This would also reserve precise map tracking for observatories, scans, parasite, etc.
  • MoFo1MoFo1 United States Join Date: 2014-07-25 Member: 197612Members
    edited January 2016
    Requiring the marine to "mark" the target ala battlefield style would probably work the best. Requiring teamwork while getting rid of that "they're wallhacking" feeling...

    Because that's exactly what it feels like when you get killed due to them seeing your marker on the minimap... And you know there's no way in hell they had los..

    I also think phantom should completely 100% nullify the spotting mechanic.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited January 2016
    Another part of this problem is that both teams do not know they are visible to the enemy. Apart from the parasite and obs ping effects on their viewmodels, there is no way for new players to understand they are indeed spotted by LoS


    A way to fix this is by adding some hud indicator and a sound cue for when you're "spotted/hidden", kinda in the the Deus Ex/Thief/Assasins Creed/Bathesda RPG's style etc...
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Another part of this problem is that both teams do not know they are visible to the enemy. Apart from the parasite and obs ping effects on their viewmodels, there is no way for new players to understand they are indeed spotted by LoS


    A way to fix this is by adding some hud indicator and a sound cue for when you're "spotted/hidden", kinda in the the Deus Ex/Thief/Assasins Creed/Bathesda RPG's style etc...

    Honestly, they only need to be told once what their teeth glowing means, then it doesn't happen anymore.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    Another part of this problem is that both teams do not know they are visible to the enemy. Apart from the parasite and obs ping effects on their viewmodels, there is no way for new players to understand they are indeed spotted by LoS


    A way to fix this is by adding some hud indicator and a sound cue for when you're "spotted/hidden", kinda in the the Deus Ex/Thief/Assasins Creed/Bathesda RPG's style etc...

    Honestly, they only need to be told once what their teeth glowing means, then it doesn't happen anymore.

    So you are saying a tutorial is all we need? :tongue:
  • NovoReiNovoRei US Join Date: 2014-11-18 Member: 199718Members
    edited January 2016
    If some players believe this is the reason why they die while standing on the corner of a door, well... it's not.

    I propose something different. Only show lifeforms which are damaged - bleeding - or that are moving (not standing still, not shift-walking). No LoS calculation required.
  • 3X4L73X4L7 Join Date: 2014-06-13 Member: 196510Members
    I agree with the lack of help from minimap...

    I think it ruins the game by allowing marines to not check corners and avoid using a bait marine after a doorway. New players don't know the stupidity because it doesn't honestly make any sense.

    Why would a HUD eye piece only display lifeforms it spots on the minimap and not on the alien itself... It's just not logical.

    The marine minimap ruins alien play by a large degree.
  • alsteralster Join Date: 2003-08-06 Member: 19124Members
    A more reasonable way would be if the alien was within range and also moving then they would appear on the map.

    The map acts like a motion tracker. We got movement! We really need something like this.

    On the other hand aliens should always see all the marine team given the aliens' hive sense ability. Yes seriously.
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Members
    I agree, with the caveat I'm not good enough to hardly ever use Marine Mini map, my old eyes can't track that fast, yet simply holding down C continuously sometimes feels a bit OP - I'm not actively searching my surrounds and covering my team mates, I'm running behind them looking at a map that somehow allows my to see something my eyes certainly aren't looking at obliquely approaching the marine in front of me.

    If the technical issue of the current cheaper-in-terms-of-pc-resources call rather than expensive line of sight calls cannot be over come, maybe implement a animation based time lapse for the displaying of the map? Like the Pip-boy arm display or something. Won't help with the mini map issues, just a thought.

    Can't believe I'm suggesting nerfing map *punches self in head*
  • TinkiTinki Join Date: 2013-12-03 Member: 189715Members
    Lambo wrote: »
    Also fix players showing up on the map for 3 seconds when close to power nodes thx.

    This and marines near harvesters. There is also the delay with the scan wich can show you the direction of a tunnel.
    All these issues prevent a lot of sneaky plays.
  • CalegoCalego Join Date: 2013-01-24 Member: 181848Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Making Marines damage or spot aliens before they show up on the map is adding further complexity to a feature that should be instant and uncomplicated. If you see the alien (or rather, if the cameras in your helmet see it) it should show up.

    I like the idea of being able to tag aliens via spot to help coordinate a focusfire, and perhaps to have it stay on the map for 3 seconds even if LoS is broken (exceptions include gorge tunnels). Even being able to tag structures. But i expect this is a more complicated idea than it sounds.
    Tinki wrote: »
    Lambo wrote: »
    Also fix players showing up on the map for 3 seconds when close to power nodes thx.

    This and marines near harvesters. There is also the delay with the scan wich can show you the direction of a tunnel.
    All these issues prevent a lot of sneaky plays.
    I feel so dirty when I see aliens making a beeline through a tunnel toward our base and call for the rush.

    Probably worth it to make medpacks not collide with a Hive too.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    To show up the alien needs to be actually seen by a marine or obs. That is simple and doable.
  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter
    I think the problem is ambushing is next to impossible anymore since marines are almost a proximity nowadays, even sometimes when marines aren't on your screen can swipe around a corner and slaughter you because you show up on occasion, maybe make the distance different?
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    We are currently looking into this issue ;) The reason why all enemies in a close range show up no matter if the are in line of sight (LOS) or not is due to that given call is much cheaper performance wise than a LOS check.

    I am going to quote ghoul again because they are looking into this. We playtested a version of this fix and from a gameplay perspective it was much improved.
  • ArchieArchie Antarctica Join Date: 2006-09-19 Member: 58028Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter
    ^surprising i was complaining to them about this 2years ago and they said they were working on a fix for it "it's not a priority" and or "it doesn't happen" yeah well explain how i show up on your map on veil near topo around the corner on the right before you get around the corner (it only happens sometimes) as far as i know if i am not on the marines screen or they didn't pass under me they shouldn't know i am there(same thing as in ns1 ambushing) it's why i find it tedious to ambush as a skulk as it only works on stupid dumb marines and cocky marines.
  • YojimboYojimbo England Join Date: 2009-03-19 Member: 66806Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    nizb0ag wrote: »
    ^surprising i was complaining to them about this 2years ago and they said they were working on a fix for it "it's not a priority" and or "it doesn't happen" yeah well explain how i show up on your map on veil near topo around the corner on the right before you get around the corner (it only happens sometimes) as far as i know if i am not on the marines screen or they didn't pass under me they shouldn't know i am there(same thing as in ns1 ambushing) it's why i find it tedious to ambush as a skulk as it only works on stupid dumb marines and cocky marines.

    Its been tested, its happening, its being done, I should know, I was there, I was a gorge when we tested it in mezzanine on Tram, I know I was a gorge at the time as I had to run to the oven to stop my pizza from burning.

    Please feel free to apply for playtesting Archie, it's no exclusive club, anyone can join.
  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members
    edited February 2016
    Yojimbo wrote: »
    nizb0ag wrote: »
    ^surprising i was complaining to them about this 2years ago and they said they were working on a fix for it "it's not a priority" and or "it doesn't happen" yeah well explain how i show up on your map on veil near topo around the corner on the right before you get around the corner (it only happens sometimes) as far as i know if i am not on the marines screen or they didn't pass under me they shouldn't know i am there(same thing as in ns1 ambushing) it's why i find it tedious to ambush as a skulk as it only works on stupid dumb marines and cocky marines.

    Its been tested, its happening, its being done, I should know, I was there, I was a gorge when we tested it in mezzanine on Tram, I know I was a gorge at the time as I had to run to the oven to stop my pizza from burning.

    Please feel free to apply for playtesting Archie, it's no exclusive club, anyone can join.

    You just have be able to make UWE office hours. Not a big hurdle for someone that is half a day away. B)
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