Any spawn that has a single viable option needs to be looked at
Yes, but unfortunately in this case "looked at" really only gives you two courses of action:
1) Remove Cave alien spawn, aka the easy way out.
or
2) Find somebody who doesn't have their plate full already who can dedicate weeks and months of time to making changes to the map so Cave plays better.
Neither is really satisfying.
The issue with MineShaft/Cave isn't the map in itself. It's the accessibility to it. This is a big room.
By priority :
Making sure the hive is not completely exposed will be a first step (GL issue).
Making the cavern RT move back closer to the hive (as in early map version).
Add a vent to connect close to the RT (cavern moved) on the East side.
Add a vent to crusher to provide a second direct access.
This can be achieved without many modifications (mainly props) or great lengths of time. Also all these tasks are independent / separated tasks.
Another big issue (aside from the lines of sight into the hive) is the fact that because of the height disadvantage leading into the hive, which makes it super hard to defend against jetpackers. Giving jetpackers so many perches that are easily accessible from the entrances of the hive makes it so that a couple jetpackers absolutely wreck it. Unfortunately I don't think there's really any way to fix that without major structural changes to the entire cave/tunnels/cavern portion of the map.
Another big issue (aside from the lines of sight into the hive) is the fact that because of the height disadvantage leading into the hive, which makes it super hard to defend against jetpackers. Giving jetpackers so many perches that are easily accessible from the entrances of the hive makes it so that a couple jetpackers absolutely wreck it. Unfortunately I don't think there's really any way to fix that without major structural changes to the entire cave/tunnels/cavern portion of the map.
LokiJoin Date: 2012-07-07Member: 153973Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Ain't it not to soon to be calling derelict a failure? Also I had no idea we had so many arm chair mapping experts on these forums. I shall wait for one of you to make discovery for me
For me there's actually not a single NS2 map i dont like at all.
Some more then others, sure, but i had awesome games on all maps.
Problem with the 'failed' maps is more that people refuse to play them (decently). If 50% of the server goes on 'strike mode', ofcourse the game will be shit..
i don't think you need to be a map maker to figure out why a room, area or map don't work.
are there any public map stats? I looked at the hive page but couldn't find any. curious to what the alien win rate is on derelict assuming a minimum of 5 minutes.
Another big issue (aside from the lines of sight into the hive) is the fact that because of the height disadvantage leading into the hive, which makes it super hard to defend against jetpackers. Giving jetpackers so many perches that are easily accessible from the entrances of the hive makes it so that a couple jetpackers absolutely wreck it. Unfortunately I don't think there's really any way to fix that without major structural changes to the entire cave/tunnels/cavern portion of the map.
That's were the stalagmites props come in.
Those are kind of a band-aid. Coming into the hive jetpackers don't have to spend much fuel because they're elevated already, but aliens have to spend time ascending the walls/stalagmites - if using leap/blink, the jetpackers are already at an energy advantage. IMO that should never happen in a hive location, particularly one with such a long approach in both directions.
Personally, my least favorite map is veil. While balanced, I just dont find it fun.
Some of the most epic moments I've had in this game have been on Mineshaft, Kodiak, and Eclipse.
P.S. I still dont get why people hate eclipse. Sure the hallways are a bit claustrophobic, but imo that just makes gameplay more exiciting!
I hate it because power sub-junction.
If aliens start in computer core they get fucked. Marines can hold power sub and block ALL egress. If they start in Maintenance or Eclipse they have a LITTLE more room to breathe, but they are still blocked in power sub, preventing them from getting a second hive or more than 3 total (heavily pressured) harvesters. I don't think I've ever had a good game on that map.
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited August 2015
For some reason, the instant you ask players to behave differently to be successful, they associate that with bad mapping. - KungFuDiscoMonkey
This is my signature for a reason, because it's very true. As soon as people are asked to play differently to be successful they will call the map bad and switch to summit.
Though failing is different than being bad. As others have said, Kodiak "failed" because it was a new type of layout that isn't the standard wagon-wheel, and it didn't work out as well as other maps. Eclipse failed for many number of reasons.
Ain't it not to soon to be calling derelict a failure? Also I had no idea we had so many arm chair mapping experts on these forums. I shall wait for one of you to make discovery for me
This pisses me off to no end, no one knows the amount of work goes into these maps that make it to official, the actual creation and balancing, hundreds of hours only to be shitted on after 5 minutes of game play suddenly everyone's an expert, no brown nosing but after wandering around kodiak the other day waiting for a game to start I only just realised how beautiful and how much hard work has gone into the map! Fuck the "experts" you have a solid foundation of people who appreciate and understand your work. Let these people put their money where their mouth is and see if they come up with something better.
Ain't it not to soon to be calling derelict a failure? Also I had no idea we had so many arm chair mapping experts on these forums. I shall wait for one of you to make discovery for me
This pisses me off to no end, no one knows the amount of work goes into these maps that make it to official, the actual creation and balancing, hundreds of hours only to be shitted on after 5 minutes of game play suddenly everyone's an expert, no brown nosing but after wandering around kodiak the other day waiting for a game to start I only just realised how beautiful and how much hard work has gone into the map! Fuck the "experts" you have a solid foundation of people who appreciate and understand your work. Let these people put their money where their mouth is and see if they come up with something better.
Using that logic, all the high budget movies are excellent movies as well, and we aren't allowed to call any of them bad because we aren't directors? Okay.
Look, new maps aren't getting played and pretending that everything is okay isn't a solution. Its not even a matter of the map being "bad", as there are numerous "bad" maps that are played often. If its a matter of people not liking anything that isn't the usual rotation, you have to find a way to introduce the map into their rotation. If its because the map is "bad", you have to "fix" the map. You have to find the cause. Handwaving won't make it the situation any better, and its a waste if all that effort comes to nothing as a result.
That said, it is still too early to call Derelict a failure. All new maps get panned and its only when the votemap never succeeds a couple of months later that you can call it that.
Those are kind of a band-aid. Coming into the hive jetpackers don't have to spend much fuel because they're elevated already, but aliens have to spend time ascending the walls/stalagmites - if using leap/blink, the jetpackers are already at an energy advantage. IMO that should never happen in a hive location, particularly one with such a long approach in both directions.
Nope you missed it. The trick is to add some props to create walls. With the help of a "collision" geometry eventually. There are many solutions to render the JP life difficult in this area. You can go far with it. Even breaking the room as if there was a collapse (damn i should be paid for all those ideas).
Ain't it not to soon to be calling derelict a failure? Also I had no idea we had so many arm chair mapping experts on these forums. I shall wait for one of you to make discovery for me
This pisses me off to no end, no one knows the amount of work goes into these maps that make it to official, the actual creation and balancing, hundreds of hours only to be shitted on after 5 minutes of game play suddenly everyone's an expert, no brown nosing but after wandering around kodiak the other day waiting for a game to start I only just realised how beautiful and how much hard work has gone into the map! Fuck the "experts" you have a solid foundation of people who appreciate and understand your work. Let these people put their money where their mouth is and see if they come up with something better.
Well... as said before, you can't ignore there are many issues.
What is really a dumb thing that floats around in the threads about it; is the "you'd better play shade on Derelict". That is utterly stupid. Follow for a second.
It will give the impression that the map can't be played differently than using the shade strategy. Therefore excluding the other strategies as well. It's a total failure in NS (routine execution... no thinking, etc.). Alien should have choices. This kind of idea is just wrong and won't solve the main issue. All isn't lost.
Playing shade isn't easy. Especially with good players. So the new patch was supposed to bring new players with a new map that should be played using shade (by preference it seams). So the rookies should be pro to play it... That's a paradigm.
If it was to ensure A/ the rookies can play Marine easier and B/ give to the alien a hard time; this will end in one thing : Stack, stomp, bye bye rookie.
The new maps fail because of players in the first place, yes i say that. But not only, I'm afraid.
I also think that new maps won't save the game. It's something different that is not balance either. I believe UWE failed to get it I'm afraid.
Ain't it not to soon to be calling derelict a failure? Also I had no idea we had so many arm chair mapping experts on these forums. I shall wait for one of you to make discovery for me
This pisses me off to no end, no one knows the amount of work goes into these maps that make it to official, the actual creation and balancing, hundreds of hours only to be shitted on after 5 minutes of game play suddenly everyone's an expert, no brown nosing but after wandering around kodiak the other day waiting for a game to start I only just realised how beautiful and how much hard work has gone into the map! Fuck the "experts" you have a solid foundation of people who appreciate and understand your work. Let these people put their money where their mouth is and see if they come up with something better.
Using that logic, all the high budget movies are excellent movies as well, and we aren't allowed to call any of them bad because we aren't directors? Okay.
Look, new maps aren't getting played and pretending that everything is okay isn't a solution. Its not even a matter of the map being "bad", as there are numerous "bad" maps that are played often. If its a matter of people not liking anything that isn't the usual rotation, you have to find a way to introduce the map into their rotation. If its because the map is "bad", you have to "fix" the map. You have to find the cause. Handwaving won't make it the situation any better, and its a waste if all that effort comes to nothing as a result.
That said, it is still too early to call Derelict a failure. All new maps get panned and its only when the votemap never succeeds a couple of months later that you can call it that.
No i just believe people's expectations are too great, people are forever demanding more and more, always wanting something for nothing and when they get something given to them on a plate they provide rubbish feedback without any constructive criticism, their minds are already made without any fair or concise reasons behind their decision.
No i just believe people's expectations are too great, people are forever demanding more and more, always wanting something for nothing and when they get something given to them on a plate they provide rubbish feedback without any constructive criticism, their minds are already made without any fair or concise reasons behind their decision.
On the other side, If a new map was supposed to bring more people. I'm afraid it's not changing anything.
Well. Those remaining have been quite verbose (here and elsewhere).
For what i see the only real new thing in this patch is the map. It is named upon it. It was clearly announced that this new patch would invert the player base decreasing curve. I would have bet on a September release. It would have been logical, but it was earlier.
Re-reading the log: There is no new dedicated feature that is meant to improve player base. The only things we see in there are : Bug fix, performances, tweaks, map editor, SDK sections.
So besides the life cycle of a program stuff, nothing new to improve the community in-game issues except this map. Which patch has been announced as the savior... Maybe somebody lied. I believe it's what made those rants about it. The greater the promises the bigger the disappointment.
Re-reading the log: There is no new dedicated feature that is meant to improve player base. The only things we see in there are : Bug fix, performances, tweaks, map editor, SDK sections.
We're working on player retention from many different angles, but there is only so much we can do in so little time as volunteers!
Frankly it's extremely annoying that those most vocal about the problems with NS2 also seem to be the ones least willing to do anything about it. No, repeatedly making posts along the lines of "this game is dead/dying/stupid/dumb" and "cdt blah blah ruins game" is NOT helping AT ALL.
Talk doesn't help us, or the game. Action does.
"But Beige, I can't help develop the game, I'm not in CDT!!!"
Such is the story of many of the CDT members now.
Think the game needs better tutorials/training? Make a mod for it! Yes, rookies wouldn't know about the mod, BUT if it's high enough quality, who says that wouldn't earn you a ticket into the CDT?
I got invited into CDT because of all the tools and scripts I've made for the mapping/modding workflow. Nobody asked me to make them, and nobody really helped me make them at first. I took it upon myself to improve part of the game, and now I'm part of the dev team, continuing to work on the modding tools. After a while of working, somebody noticed, and they gave me the support I needed to improve the scripts further.
EDIT: Also, with how much performance has hurt player retention in the past, I can't imagine how you think optimizing the game isn't helping in any way.
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
Derelict seems to be pretty popular now. I've seen it win every map vote in which it was an option, and the games were all satisfying. There are probably some stats out there, but so far I think it's doing well.
I feel like the issues with Kodiak and Eclipse are similar, though I don't know how to diagnose the causes. When the alien team is better than the marine team on either map, the marines don't hold any territory at all. This ends up making the games feel worse even though they have the same final outcome as they would on another map. I wonder if both maps just need some "pity territory" for the marines, some areas with long sightlines and an rt so they don't have to feel too bad about themselves.
When the teams are balanced, both maps produce good games, but their failure cases are less fun than on other maps.
If I were going to propose some armchair fixes:
Clean up the route to access alpha to make it a shooting gallery in most circumstances. Moving the rt north helped I think.
Make the Kodiak marine start more open and easier to fight in. The railings and holograms look nice but obstruct the gameplay. I wish they were out of the way.
Consider moving the rt in Kodiak by the bridge to the near side of the bridge. That might be too much, but it would definitely make this a "pity rt."
EDIT: Also, with how much performance has hurt player retention in the past, I can't imagine how you think optimizing the game isn't helping in any way.
The thing is that those who left for performance issues just un-installed the game to save on storage. Or re-fill the drive with another enormous game (who said Batman?). So every time there is a patch there is no Steam download that gives them tips about it. Maybe newsletters alert... well... usually gamers don't read right ?
And if no one tells you to try to provide the tools (like menu entries and such) then what ? Focussing on performance forever will save it ? Conservative probably... proven to work at it is now (state if the game)... maybe not. I mean it took more than a year to get the commander tab for configuring non qwerty keyboard. That is the kind of thing many supporters need and think to be crucial in order to go forward. But it took that time for UWE to make it.
Making a mod considering what we saw about support/docs and 'the things changed that render the mod not compatible', it at best discouraging. You always have to ask to the guys who knows. It just too late for that.
Making a mod and wait for years that something happens it out of the question as it is quite late.
I'm supporting a custom map server a lot of people sworn to seed... well... same story for any server that is not seeded on a regular basis by its owner. Pfff gamers...
I'm willing to teach people, and I'm announcing it on a regular basis. It rarely happens because the new players don't see the option or status on players like me (and others). Sometimes because these new players don't even know they can ask. Jesus!
I'm well aware about how programming is always something that requires efforts that aren't seen like fireworks. I don't deny performances and improvement (bugs, etc..) are useful. But keeping doing the same thing for that game won't work in the end. It will be the same o same recipe of a game life cycle.
It looks like the economic failure of quantitative easing. It didn't work... okay lets make another one...
What this game needs is simple :
It's said everywhere that it's a "community game". The negative comments on Steam pages (take a look at it... worth its weight) is always something about "vets crushing rookies". I even read a bunch of these saying the game was okay on perfs, but the community is toxic (read Rookies get blown into pieces). It's clear they thought about something that reveals itself to be something else. They were hoping this game was different. At least not like the other Shooter scum.
Why is there no tools to help people hang out within the game ? A community center tool.
-> It would remove the language barrier, help teachers and rookies connect,
-> In order to teach something to the new players, train them, and throw them in the blender.
So obvious that... well... enough
Other than that we have to rely on anything we can use given these new players are willing to use it and know how to use it (IRC, Chat with mic (buy a mic!), time (different timezones), other means etc... it's really painful.
To get back to the topic at hand.
Back in the old days i thought that haf-life was crap (Nuclear and Accelerator experiment was all but original, not to mention bugs), but the game succeeded in making the player comfortable with a proper keyboard configuration (primary secondary etc.). That changed everything.
Another New NS2 map will fail as long as the game can't provide a pleasant environment for new player. At least not a meat blender. One of the things I'm voting for is to have simple tools to establish (& ease) relationship as teacher-helper/new player.
Well, we can argue back and forth all day but I don't foresee us getting anywhere. The fact is, whenever there is a steam sale, we get new players. However, we don't keep many of those players because of a few reasons:
-existing playerbase is too advanced
-existing playerbase is small
-lack of solid tutorials
-learning curve even after tutorial-level
-niche genre
-community attitude
I highly doubt that the balance of a new map is affecting new player or even old player retention. A new player doesn't even know that kodiak is a "shitty map" until the entire server is up in arms/leaves the server because people voted on it.
Also, I feel like 'performance' is kind of a scapegoat. When I first played NS, I barely got 15fps on it but I got hooked, why?
In NS1, one of the biggest draws for me was how friendly the community was; because everyone understood that the game was complex and that no one had really mastered it yet, there was a high level of tolerance for new players and a lot of active hand-holding (which is way way better than tutorials). It made people want to play the game, because in addition to being a game it was sort of social endeavour; if you prevailed it felt great because you were part of a team working together.
So what can we do to alleviate the situation? Nothing's going to change the fact that NS2 is a niche game, and I doubt that there will ever be a solution to the learning curve given that one of the main draws to the game is its complexity. Neither is it realistic to ask the good players to play like shit for the sake of newbies (although for real - it's ok to lose a pub game guys! Don't lose your mind if your team isn't playing like pros).
I don't really have a point other than, let's not get caught up trying to blame each other for why NS2 is in its current state. Rather than arguing about the problem, think about what you can do to be a part of the solution.
Ain't it not to soon to be calling derelict a failure? Also I had no idea we had so many arm chair mapping experts on these forums. I shall wait for one of you to make discovery for me
This pisses me off to no end, no one knows the amount of work goes into these maps that make it to official, the actual creation and balancing, hundreds of hours only to be shitted on after 5 minutes of game play suddenly everyone's an expert, no brown nosing but after wandering around kodiak the other day waiting for a game to start I only just realised how beautiful and how much hard work has gone into the map! Fuck the "experts" you have a solid foundation of people who appreciate and understand your work. Let these people put their money where their mouth is and see if they come up with something better.
Using that logic, all the high budget movies are excellent movies as well, and we aren't allowed to call any of them bad because we aren't directors? Okay.
Look, new maps aren't getting played and pretending that everything is okay isn't a solution. Its not even a matter of the map being "bad", as there are numerous "bad" maps that are played often. If its a matter of people not liking anything that isn't the usual rotation, you have to find a way to introduce the map into their rotation. If its because the map is "bad", you have to "fix" the map. You have to find the cause. Handwaving won't make it the situation any better, and its a waste if all that effort comes to nothing as a result.
That said, it is still too early to call Derelict a failure. All new maps get panned and its only when the votemap never succeeds a couple of months later that you can call it that.
No i just believe people's expectations are too great, people are forever demanding more and more, always wanting something for nothing and when they get something given to them on a plate they provide rubbish feedback without any constructive criticism, their minds are already made without any fair or concise reasons behind their decision.
Well, we can argue back and forth all day but I don't foresee us getting anywhere. The fact is, whenever there is a steam sale, we get new players. However, we don't keep many of those players because of a few reasons:
-existing playerbase is too advanced
-existing playerbase is small
-lack of solid tutorials
-learning curve even after tutorial-level
-niche genre
-community attitude
I highly doubt that the balance of a new map is affecting new player or even old player retention. A new player doesn't even know that kodiak is a "shitty map" until the entire server is up in arms/leaves the server because people voted on it.
Also, I feel like 'performance' is kind of a scapegoat. When I first played NS, I barely got 15fps on it but I got hooked, why?
In NS1, one of the biggest draws for me was how friendly the community was; because everyone understood that the game was complex and that no one had really mastered it yet, there was a high level of tolerance for new players and a lot of active hand-holding (which is way way better than tutorials). It made people want to play the game, because in addition to being a game it was sort of social endeavour; if you prevailed it felt great because you were part of a team working together.
So what can we do to alleviate the situation? Nothing's going to change the fact that NS2 is a niche game, and I doubt that there will ever be a solution to the learning curve given that one of the main draws to the game is its complexity. Neither is it realistic to ask the good players to play like shit for the sake of newbies (although for real - it's ok to lose a pub game guys! Don't lose your mind if your team isn't playing like pros).
I don't really have a point other than, let's not get caught up trying to blame each other for why NS2 is in its current state. Rather than arguing about the problem, think about what you can do to be a part of the solution.
We're going off topic, but identifying the problem is the first step isn't it? You've doing that too. Identifying the solution is the next step, but thats where we get all the disagreement and then the blame comes when people disagree with implemented solutions. It's not possible to please everyone, as some things are mutually exclusive, so that is bound to happen.
Well, we can argue back and forth all day but I don't foresee us getting anywhere. The fact is, whenever there is a steam sale, we get new players. However, we don't keep many of those players because of a few reasons:
-existing playerbase is too advanced
-existing playerbase is small
-lack of solid tutorials
-learning curve even after tutorial-level
-niche genre
-community attitude
I highly doubt that the balance of a new map is affecting new player or even old player retention. A new player doesn't even know that kodiak is a "shitty map" until the entire server is up in arms/leaves the server because people voted on it.
Also, I feel like 'performance' is kind of a scapegoat. When I first played NS, I barely got 15fps on it but I got hooked, why?
In NS1, one of the biggest draws for me was how friendly the community was; because everyone understood that the game was complex and that no one had really mastered it yet, there was a high level of tolerance for new players and a lot of active hand-holding (which is way way better than tutorials). It made people want to play the game, because in addition to being a game it was sort of social endeavour; if you prevailed it felt great because you were part of a team working together.
So what can we do to alleviate the situation? Nothing's going to change the fact that NS2 is a niche game, and I doubt that there will ever be a solution to the learning curve given that one of the main draws to the game is its complexity. Neither is it realistic to ask the good players to play like shit for the sake of newbies (although for real - it's ok to lose a pub game guys! Don't lose your mind if your team isn't playing like pros).
I don't really have a point other than, let's not get caught up trying to blame each other for why NS2 is in its current state. Rather than arguing about the problem, think about what you can do to be a part of the solution.
I don't know what it was but in NS1 rookies were alot more communicative and actively engaged in learning as opposed to NS2, I'm always willing to help rookies but when they don't reply to you either via text or microphone and just wander about like headless chickens it becomes frustrating, doesn't exactly help the current situation either!
I'm not sure if it applies to people in general, but I get quite easily frustrated by maps that are played once every couple of weeks, but never really played enough for you to get comfortable in them. I'm fine with learning a new map and I find it exciting to figure out how to play the maps, but to do that I desperately need to have the map played often enough that I can thoroughly explore and experiment.
Basically this means that I'd love to play at least a few decent rounds in a row to familiarise the map and to actually look at different angles and situations. The worst thing that happens is one quite unsatisfying round where everybody is trying to understand the map basics and then a map change to the usual routine map selection.
I guess one thing you can try is to have slightly longer 1-2 hour map rotations occassionally or something like that. Maybe have some day of the week when a server is running slower rotation on the map cycle and try to make sure you have enough active buddies there to keep the server populated.
I don't know what it was but in NS1 rookies were alot more communicative and actively engaged in learning as opposed to NS2, I'm always willing to help rookies but when they don't reply to you either via text or microphone and just wander about like headless chickens it becomes frustrating, doesn't exactly help the current situation either!
They became cheap. That's it. The game didn't prevented them to connect right away on a server. So... Cheap people do cheap things.
Comments
The issue with MineShaft/Cave isn't the map in itself. It's the accessibility to it. This is a big room.
By priority :
This can be achieved without many modifications (mainly props) or great lengths of time. Also all these tasks are independent / separated tasks.
That's were the stalagmites props come in.
Some more then others, sure, but i had awesome games on all maps.
Problem with the 'failed' maps is more that people refuse to play them (decently). If 50% of the server goes on 'strike mode', ofcourse the game will be shit..
are there any public map stats? I looked at the hive page but couldn't find any. curious to what the alien win rate is on derelict assuming a minimum of 5 minutes.
player's idea didn't worked as he expect >> "This map failed"
If serious, people just doesn't like to do mistakes, which a new map forcing them to do
Those are kind of a band-aid. Coming into the hive jetpackers don't have to spend much fuel because they're elevated already, but aliens have to spend time ascending the walls/stalagmites - if using leap/blink, the jetpackers are already at an energy advantage. IMO that should never happen in a hive location, particularly one with such a long approach in both directions.
Some of the most epic moments I've had in this game have been on Mineshaft, Kodiak, and Eclipse.
P.S. I still dont get why people hate eclipse. Sure the hallways are a bit claustrophobic, but imo that just makes gameplay more exiciting!
I hate it because power sub-junction.
If aliens start in computer core they get fucked. Marines can hold power sub and block ALL egress. If they start in Maintenance or Eclipse they have a LITTLE more room to breathe, but they are still blocked in power sub, preventing them from getting a second hive or more than 3 total (heavily pressured) harvesters. I don't think I've ever had a good game on that map.
Though failing is different than being bad. As others have said, Kodiak "failed" because it was a new type of layout that isn't the standard wagon-wheel, and it didn't work out as well as other maps. Eclipse failed for many number of reasons.
This pisses me off to no end, no one knows the amount of work goes into these maps that make it to official, the actual creation and balancing, hundreds of hours only to be shitted on after 5 minutes of game play suddenly everyone's an expert, no brown nosing but after wandering around kodiak the other day waiting for a game to start I only just realised how beautiful and how much hard work has gone into the map! Fuck the "experts" you have a solid foundation of people who appreciate and understand your work. Let these people put their money where their mouth is and see if they come up with something better.
Using that logic, all the high budget movies are excellent movies as well, and we aren't allowed to call any of them bad because we aren't directors? Okay.
Look, new maps aren't getting played and pretending that everything is okay isn't a solution. Its not even a matter of the map being "bad", as there are numerous "bad" maps that are played often. If its a matter of people not liking anything that isn't the usual rotation, you have to find a way to introduce the map into their rotation. If its because the map is "bad", you have to "fix" the map. You have to find the cause. Handwaving won't make it the situation any better, and its a waste if all that effort comes to nothing as a result.
That said, it is still too early to call Derelict a failure. All new maps get panned and its only when the votemap never succeeds a couple of months later that you can call it that.
Nope you missed it. The trick is to add some props to create walls. With the help of a "collision" geometry eventually. There are many solutions to render the JP life difficult in this area. You can go far with it. Even breaking the room as if there was a collapse (damn i should be paid for all those ideas).
Well... as said before, you can't ignore there are many issues.
What is really a dumb thing that floats around in the threads about it; is the "you'd better play shade on Derelict". That is utterly stupid. Follow for a second.
The new maps fail because of players in the first place, yes i say that. But not only, I'm afraid.
I also think that new maps won't save the game. It's something different that is not balance either. I believe UWE failed to get it I'm afraid.
No i just believe people's expectations are too great, people are forever demanding more and more, always wanting something for nothing and when they get something given to them on a plate they provide rubbish feedback without any constructive criticism, their minds are already made without any fair or concise reasons behind their decision.
For what i see the only real new thing in this patch is the map. It is named upon it. It was clearly announced that this new patch would invert the player base decreasing curve. I would have bet on a September release. It would have been logical, but it was earlier.
Re-reading the log: There is no new dedicated feature that is meant to improve player base. The only things we see in there are : Bug fix, performances, tweaks, map editor, SDK sections.
So besides the life cycle of a program stuff, nothing new to improve the community in-game issues except this map. Which patch has been announced as the savior... Maybe somebody lied. I believe it's what made those rants about it. The greater the promises the bigger the disappointment.
We're working on player retention from many different angles, but there is only so much we can do in so little time as volunteers!
Frankly it's extremely annoying that those most vocal about the problems with NS2 also seem to be the ones least willing to do anything about it. No, repeatedly making posts along the lines of "this game is dead/dying/stupid/dumb" and "cdt blah blah ruins game" is NOT helping AT ALL.
Talk doesn't help us, or the game. Action does.
"But Beige, I can't help develop the game, I'm not in CDT!!!"
Such is the story of many of the CDT members now.
Think the game needs better tutorials/training? Make a mod for it! Yes, rookies wouldn't know about the mod, BUT if it's high enough quality, who says that wouldn't earn you a ticket into the CDT?
I got invited into CDT because of all the tools and scripts I've made for the mapping/modding workflow. Nobody asked me to make them, and nobody really helped me make them at first. I took it upon myself to improve part of the game, and now I'm part of the dev team, continuing to work on the modding tools. After a while of working, somebody noticed, and they gave me the support I needed to improve the scripts further.
EDIT: Also, with how much performance has hurt player retention in the past, I can't imagine how you think optimizing the game isn't helping in any way.
I feel like the issues with Kodiak and Eclipse are similar, though I don't know how to diagnose the causes. When the alien team is better than the marine team on either map, the marines don't hold any territory at all. This ends up making the games feel worse even though they have the same final outcome as they would on another map. I wonder if both maps just need some "pity territory" for the marines, some areas with long sightlines and an rt so they don't have to feel too bad about themselves.
When the teams are balanced, both maps produce good games, but their failure cases are less fun than on other maps.
If I were going to propose some armchair fixes:
The thing is that those who left for performance issues just un-installed the game to save on storage. Or re-fill the drive with another enormous game (who said Batman?). So every time there is a patch there is no Steam download that gives them tips about it. Maybe newsletters alert... well... usually gamers don't read right ?
And if no one tells you to try to provide the tools (like menu entries and such) then what ? Focussing on performance forever will save it ? Conservative probably... proven to work at it is now (state if the game)... maybe not. I mean it took more than a year to get the commander tab for configuring non qwerty keyboard. That is the kind of thing many supporters need and think to be crucial in order to go forward. But it took that time for UWE to make it.
I'm well aware about how programming is always something that requires efforts that aren't seen like fireworks. I don't deny performances and improvement (bugs, etc..) are useful. But keeping doing the same thing for that game won't work in the end. It will be the same o same recipe of a game life cycle.
It looks like the economic failure of quantitative easing. It didn't work... okay lets make another one...
What this game needs is simple :
It's said everywhere that it's a "community game". The negative comments on Steam pages (take a look at it... worth its weight) is always something about "vets crushing rookies". I even read a bunch of these saying the game was okay on perfs, but the community is toxic (read Rookies get blown into pieces). It's clear they thought about something that reveals itself to be something else. They were hoping this game was different. At least not like the other Shooter scum.
Why is there no tools to help people hang out within the game ? A community center tool.
-> It would remove the language barrier, help teachers and rookies connect,
-> In order to teach something to the new players, train them, and throw them in the blender.
So obvious that... well... enough
Other than that we have to rely on anything we can use given these new players are willing to use it and know how to use it (IRC, Chat with mic (buy a mic!), time (different timezones), other means etc... it's really painful.
To get back to the topic at hand.
Back in the old days i thought that haf-life was crap (Nuclear and Accelerator experiment was all but original, not to mention bugs), but the game succeeded in making the player comfortable with a proper keyboard configuration (primary secondary etc.). That changed everything.
Another New NS2 map will fail as long as the game can't provide a pleasant environment for new player. At least not a meat blender. One of the things I'm voting for is to have simple tools to establish (& ease) relationship as teacher-helper/new player.
-existing playerbase is too advanced
-existing playerbase is small
-lack of solid tutorials
-learning curve even after tutorial-level
-niche genre
-community attitude
I highly doubt that the balance of a new map is affecting new player or even old player retention. A new player doesn't even know that kodiak is a "shitty map" until the entire server is up in arms/leaves the server because people voted on it.
Also, I feel like 'performance' is kind of a scapegoat. When I first played NS, I barely got 15fps on it but I got hooked, why?
In NS1, one of the biggest draws for me was how friendly the community was; because everyone understood that the game was complex and that no one had really mastered it yet, there was a high level of tolerance for new players and a lot of active hand-holding (which is way way better than tutorials). It made people want to play the game, because in addition to being a game it was sort of social endeavour; if you prevailed it felt great because you were part of a team working together.
So what can we do to alleviate the situation? Nothing's going to change the fact that NS2 is a niche game, and I doubt that there will ever be a solution to the learning curve given that one of the main draws to the game is its complexity. Neither is it realistic to ask the good players to play like shit for the sake of newbies (although for real - it's ok to lose a pub game guys! Don't lose your mind if your team isn't playing like pros).
I don't really have a point other than, let's not get caught up trying to blame each other for why NS2 is in its current state. Rather than arguing about the problem, think about what you can do to be a part of the solution.
Shifting goal posts now are we?
We're going off topic, but identifying the problem is the first step isn't it? You've doing that too. Identifying the solution is the next step, but thats where we get all the disagreement and then the blame comes when people disagree with implemented solutions. It's not possible to please everyone, as some things are mutually exclusive, so that is bound to happen.
Mandem has much love for @loki
I don't know what it was but in NS1 rookies were alot more communicative and actively engaged in learning as opposed to NS2, I'm always willing to help rookies but when they don't reply to you either via text or microphone and just wander about like headless chickens it becomes frustrating, doesn't exactly help the current situation either!
Basically this means that I'd love to play at least a few decent rounds in a row to familiarise the map and to actually look at different angles and situations. The worst thing that happens is one quite unsatisfying round where everybody is trying to understand the map basics and then a map change to the usual routine map selection.
I guess one thing you can try is to have slightly longer 1-2 hour map rotations occassionally or something like that. Maybe have some day of the week when a server is running slower rotation on the map cycle and try to make sure you have enough active buddies there to keep the server populated.
They became cheap. That's it. The game didn't prevented them to connect right away on a server. So... Cheap people do cheap things.