What did you struggle with the most, as a rookie?

2

Comments

  • AeglosAeglos Join Date: 2010-04-06 Member: 71189Members
    Re: Breakthrough moment - Positioning is key.

    Sometimes, waiting awhile is more effective than charging everywhere trying to be efficient. It may be the difference between damaging or killing.

    There is value in being alive and not dying. Dealing damage is not everything.

    Don't block teammates' shots and escape routes.


    Re: Tutorials. Can we force tutorials for people running the game for the first time?

    The "I'm good. I know wasd and left mouse button. Who needs tutorials? How do I (explained in existing tutorial)? Can I command?" rookies are a thing.

    Also, I think we should have separate basic, intermediate advanced tutorials. A lot of these suggestions are regarding getting better, but I find that many rookies don't even know how the game works. E.g. skulks biting unbuilt powernodes, not knowing how to evolve/buy weapons, being clueless regarding upgrades and techpaths, how to earn resources.

    I think these are must know basics.
    - How to build as marine and alien.
    - Use of power nodes/Cysts.
    - Buy menu.
    - Repairing/healing.
    - Resource system.
    - The map key.
    - Weapon/ability explanation. Esp. Flamethrower/bilebomb/metabolise.
    - Skulk wall climb and jump, lerk fly/glide, fade blink.
    - (Reminder that even if they are afraid of dying and wasting their res, not using it is the worst case scenario so they should just use it even if they end up flashing).

    And then before they are allowed to command, they have to go through an intermediate tutorial explaining the structures and the tech tree. Also commander alerts, abilities and assigning hotkeys.
  • SherlockSherlock Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168595Members
    Sherlock wrote: »
    Learning the map. I know most of the original maps like the back of my hand, but the new ones are very tough to navigate without plenty of play time on them, and a lot of the corners and room exits are very hard to find as you need to go back on yourself. The changes to the maps I knew are even worse, as I need to unlearn something before I can learn something new (North Docking, wtf).

    Quoting myself to add something more to this point.

    I feel, with the constant balancing of the maps that has gone in to this game, they've lost their atmosphere, and as such, all the areas just blur in to one.

    The original maps had this real and tangible ambience to them. The different rooms were unique, and felt individual, and it's what drew me to the game in the first place. The suspense when you first walked in to Mineshaft's Cavern was magnificent. Docking's Cafeteria feels like a cafeteria. You can imagine it on a futuristic spacestation. Summit's Atrium is a sight to behold with it's huge arching ceilings, and even it's Data Core, with the banks and banks of servers, is thematic. Refinery's flowing lava is still my favourite part of the game, and for a long time, that map was completely out of rotation because of balance issues.

    Instead of focusing on what fixes the game needs for rookie players, I think in part we need to step back and take a look at what draws people in to the game in the first place, and really make it hit home that this is a world, and a game, you want to get to know. The sense of wonder and exploration as you discovered new, interesting parts of the maps. Following the tracks in Tram just to see where they go. Not just another grey pipe in another grey room with a unidentifiable name that is instantly forgettable. I remember first waking in to an area of heavy infestation on a map back in Beta, and knowing instantly that I wasn't mean to be here. It felt dangerous, yet exciting.

    Eclipse managed this. That is a fantastic, thematic, gorgeous looking map. Biodome does it slightly. But so many other maps lose this important aspect (Jambi, I'm looking at you). They're designed for competitive players who want balance, not public players who want atmosphere. I yearn for that initial amazement I once had for the game.


  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
    edited August 2015
    @Sherlock Jambi is not an official map and is also not finished. It was build to a level where it is fun to play and done. No idea what kept the Mapper from developing any further.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    not to mention barely anyone ever plays it now...
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    Wheeee wrote: »
    not to mention barely anyone ever plays it now...

    It's played more than eclipse, which is a travesty.

    It's cysting mechanics fault
  • nemonemo Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11908Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2015
    Rookies aren't going to spend time in training missions or anything like that so the learning mechanisms need to be in game.

    There are some gameplay elements that could be altered to make the counter-intuitive, become intuitive. For example, vets know not to completely finish the power unless there is a structure that needs powering since it can't be destroyed in that state. However that no longer applies when the power is in "damaged" state which is another thing entirely. Why don't all power nodes start life as destroyed ones? Vastly simpler

    The hive should have a constant stream of + health sprites constantly rising off it for rookies. The same goes for crags. There should be a medic tooltip hovering over gorges. As a gorge you should have a medic symbol above players who need healing. These are all things stolen from TF2 and work well there.

    Rookies don't know the maps, one thing that would help them massively is that immediately after dying the camera could rapidly fly backwards to where they will spawn from. This shows them how to get back to where they died. It might not be that hard to code. You could create an invisible entity to act as the camera, perhaps re-using some drifter logic and simply set it a waypoint back to the hive, with the camera looking behind it.

    Rookie marines need a different starting weapon, one that wont make vets even more powerful. The solution is a damage over time weapon like for example incendiary or poison rounds. It would do less base damage than an LMG, but do a couple of ticks of addition fire damage. This fire damage wont stack. So a second hit right after a first would cancel the first shots damage over time and replace it with its own. The result is a weapon which you can tune so that it does less damage than an LMG once your accuracy goes over say 15%, but more than an LMG would when your accuracy is bad.

    I can't think of an equivalent that would bridge the rookie => average gap for skulks. Skulks are inherently foreign to most gamers.

    Also as a rookie you have no sense of the overall game. They have no idea if their team is winning or losing and not much other than dying to determine how well they are doing in the game. Not sure what to do about that either.

  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    nemo wrote: »
    Also as a rookie you have no sense of the overall game. They have no idea if their team is winning or losing and not much other than dying to determine how well they are doing in the game. Not sure what to do about that either.

    A brief forced tutorial that covers the big picture

  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    As much as those "vets" annoy me sometimes, at least that would be a positive use of their energies.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    IronHorse wrote: »
    nemo wrote: »
    Also as a rookie you have no sense of the overall game. They have no idea if their team is winning or losing and not much other than dying to determine how well they are doing in the game. Not sure what to do about that either.

    A brief forced tutorial that covers the big picture

    That's tricky though... People HATE being forced to do stuff... even if it's for their own good.

    I've been thinking about how to "force" people to do the tutorials... without actually forcing them. I'm kicking around the idea of having "level" badges -- maybe badge is the wrong word, but that's not so important -- that is, an always-visible way for other players to see how much experience the other player has. For example, if they haven't even attempted the tutorials, they'll have a big-fat "NEW RECRUIT" badge on their name. Other players will see this and encourage (read: shout-down) the player to do the tutorials. That way it's more of a cultural force, rather than the game forcing the players to do something they don't want to do.

    (and yes, I said "tutorials") ;)

    Mehhh It's really not.. players participate in forced tutorials in many many games today.
    The key is to be brief, dispel a few basic tips that cover the basics, and to express the big picture.

    Another key part of encouraging additional "training" or completing future optional tutorials is to gate them.. Nosgoth did this beautifully.. you are stuck playing with other rookies until level X is reached.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    IronHorse wrote: »
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    IronHorse wrote: »
    nemo wrote: »
    Also as a rookie you have no sense of the overall game. They have no idea if their team is winning or losing and not much other than dying to determine how well they are doing in the game. Not sure what to do about that either.

    A brief forced tutorial that covers the big picture

    That's tricky though... People HATE being forced to do stuff... even if it's for their own good.

    I've been thinking about how to "force" people to do the tutorials... without actually forcing them. I'm kicking around the idea of having "level" badges -- maybe badge is the wrong word, but that's not so important -- that is, an always-visible way for other players to see how much experience the other player has. For example, if they haven't even attempted the tutorials, they'll have a big-fat "NEW RECRUIT" badge on their name. Other players will see this and encourage (read: shout-down) the player to do the tutorials. That way it's more of a cultural force, rather than the game forcing the players to do something they don't want to do.

    (and yes, I said "tutorials") ;)

    Mehhh It's really not.. players participate in forced tutorials in many many games today.
    The key is to be brief, dispel a few basic tips that cover the basics, and to express the big picture.

    Another key part of encouraging additional "training" or completing future optional tutorials is to gate them.. Nosgoth did this beautifully.. you are stuck playing with other rookies until level X is reached.

    NS2 is much more complicated, and for the forced tutorial to be of any use, it'd have to be really long -- too long, I think, for people to tolerate without much additional incentive.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    It'd be too long if it were to cover everything that you'd gain from experience in naturally playing, in other words unnecessary.
    Most rookies join and despite doing the tutorial don't even know the goal of the round.. that is what should be covered.

    Again, there's plenty of games out there that serve as an example of what is acceptable for a forced tutorial, and said games still garner quite the playercounts.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Rank badge (Varies by team player is on):

    Make there be multiple tutorials, 1 for each primary concept (weapons range for marine weapons and buildings, one for each lifeform)

    **rank = Marine/Alien**

    0 Tutorials - Rank = MeatShield

    1st tutorial - Rank = Recruit/Drone

    2nd - Rank = Private/Warrior

    etc.

    after all tutorials completed, rank up by hive stats (time played/skill rating)

    This opens the gate for earning specialist badges based on favorite classes/weapons/teams!


    EZ. World peace can now commence.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    Benson wrote: »
    Rank badge (Varies by team player is on):

    Make there be multiple tutorials, 1 for each primary concept (weapons range for marine weapons and buildings, one for each lifeform)

    **rank = Marine/Alien**

    0 Tutorials - Rank = MeatShield

    1st tutorial - Rank = Recruit/Drone

    2nd - Rank = Private/Warrior

    etc.

    after all tutorials completed, rank up by hive stats (time played/skill rating)

    This opens the gate for earning specialist badges based on favorite classes/weapons/teams!


    EZ. World peace can now commence.

    That's actually pretty close to what I'm writing up in my proposal. Different "tiers" of tutorials, each with a set of "mini-missions" to complete that will teach them about certain aspects of the game. Completing a tier unlocks the next, and a new badge to display.

    @IronHorse We could certainly make the first tier mandatory. The rest would still help to accelerate the rookie's learning.
  • MuckyMcFlyMuckyMcFly Join Date: 2012-03-19 Member: 148982Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    Do the original vocal queue's still play for new players?
  • HarmoniusZHarmoniusZ Poland Join Date: 2013-11-06 Member: 189038Members
    edited August 2015
    There are only 2 main reasons for people uninstalling NS2. You need decent hardware to compete on a decent skill-level. If your hardware is not good enough OR your natural predispositions are weak the game becomes VERY frustrating. Don't waste your time on making new tutorials and adding new fancy features, because it will do nothing. Matchmaking is the only thing worth mentioning plus F2P or any (?) other method to fill the matchmaking system ;) This game is not really SO complicated and difficult to learn. It's just an easy explanation and excuse for low numbers at steamcharts.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I'm with Ironhorse here. Right now we have a forced camera pan with a generic countdown in the beginning of the round. This is forced, you can't turn it off - and it is quite useless and annoying - yet nobody is really complaining about it. But if we have to have this anyway, why not spend that time on an ultra-brief semi-cinematic for rookies about the absolute most basic and essential stuff, like the win conditions and what an rt is.

    This is what dirty bomb does - and even though I personally find that super anoying and too long - I think it's a good idea that with proper execution can have a pretty strong impact.
  • Cosmic_FlareCosmic_Flare Join Date: 2007-03-07 Member: 60276Members
    The biggest difficulty I have as a new player to NS2 is the maps: where to go, where I'm needed, and what I should expect when going down a certain hallway. I know map awareness was a very big deal in NS1 as well, so I guess I just have to play more to memorize ventilation systems and hiding spots on corners.

    Sometimes it can be difficult to have a commander tell me to go somewhere, and for me to open map with C to find that said location. My player icon on the map is tough to find sometimes, which adds to my confusion as well.

    I wish things were just more apparent in NS2: sometimes I feel like the minimap could inform me of it all without my needing to open the huge map overlay that would cover my screen (which could prove to be fatal in the middle of a empty hallway as a couple Skulks come by).

    To any event, I'm having an absolute blast playing this game. It brings back old memories of the NS1 days I've had in ABLE.NS. Now I just need to find a good combat and siege server... :)
  • MephillesMephilles Germany Join Date: 2013-08-07 Member: 186634Members, NS2 Map Tester, NS2 Community Developer
    HarmoniusZ wrote: »
    There are only 2 main reasons for people uninstalling NS2. You need decent hardware to compete on a decent skill-level.

    That's a lie. There are some very good players out there with crap PCs.

    for explaining the goal of the game, isn't something as simple as: "get as much RTs as possible, kill as much enemy RTs as possible, kill all hives/CCs" enough to explain the goal of the game? Theoretically the purpose of those RTs could be explained in a seperate commander tutorial if something like that is planned

  • HarmoniusZHarmoniusZ Poland Join Date: 2013-11-06 Member: 189038Members
    Mephilles wrote: »
    HarmoniusZ wrote: »
    There are only 2 main reasons for people uninstalling NS2. You need decent hardware to compete on a decent skill-level.

    That's a lie. There are some very good players out there with crap PCs.
    All of them inhabitants of Mars planet, I guess?
    And by "crap PC" you probably mean that they suffer with 60fps or even more.
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    edited August 2015
    My stats went up by 30-40% with a new PC. And with the old PC I always had the feeling that something was holding me back.

    And I see many rookies that just stay in MS and they are calling for Waypoints all the time. You can't give every rookie a WP after he builts up a RT and you can't group players and give them WPs as well cause half the group is dead or spread out on the map.
    A solution might be a field buddy system. Give players a voice chat command system like in Tribes 2 and let them use it only for rines in the vicinity. That would take pressure from the commander and vets could lead rookies without talking to the whole team non-stop. It would also add to the atmosphere. It should just made clear what command is from the commander and what is just a suggestion from your friendly vet next to you ;)

  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    I was wayyyyy better at playing with 30fps than I am with 144fps+gsync. But if I had all the time I had when I had a shit macbook with this PC, I woulda been wayyyyyy even better
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited August 2015
    SantaClaws wrote: »
    I'm with Ironhorse here. Right now we have a forced camera pan with a generic countdown in the beginning of the round. This is forced, you can't turn it off - and it is quite useless and annoying - yet nobody is really complaining about it. But if we have to have this anyway, why not spend that time on an ultra-brief semi-cinematic for rookies about the absolute most basic and essential stuff, like the win conditions and what an rt is.

    This is what dirty bomb does - and even though I personally find that super anoying and too long - I think it's a good idea that with proper execution can have a pretty strong impact.

    Technically we already have this during respawn moments - they are called "tip vids" .. and rookies do see them. Type resettipvids to see them again.

    Unfortunately while they cover basic tips there is still no explanation of the big picture, so rookies never understand the meta or goal really.
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    each with a set of "mini-missions" to complete that will teach them about certain aspects of the game.

    Personally i think this is a waste of development time for something that most will not elect to complete as they would be unnecessarily complicated to develop.
    It'd be simpler, quicker, and more effective to focus on the actual things that matter in an isolated environment or single room, like positioning, or walljumping or single tasks at a time.
    A mini mission may accomplish the same in a way, but the focus would be on the fun aspect of completion over learning the actual skill - all while taking far more to develop.

    Also, to others : how does renaming a player to something help with coordination? "Fresh Meat(1) go with Recruit(3) to Biome" ??
    I get an associated rank or badge, but don't mess with their name.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    IronHorse wrote: »
    BeigeAlert wrote: »
    each with a set of "mini-missions" to complete that will teach them about certain aspects of the game.

    Personally i think this is a waste of development time for something that most will not elect to complete as they would be unnecessarily complicated to develop.
    It'd be simpler, quicker, and more effective to focus on the actual things that matter in an isolated environment or single room, like positioning, or walljumping or single tasks at a time.
    A mini mission may accomplish the same in a way, but the focus would be on the fun aspect of completion over learning the actual skill - all while taking far more to develop.

    Also, to others : how does renaming a player to something help with coordination? "Fresh Meat(1) go with Recruit(3) to Biome" ??
    I get an associated rank or badge, but don't mess with their name.

    You're probably picturing something much much more complicated than what I have in mind for this.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Well, how about incorporating tutorials into the pregame.

    Countless times people have to wait 3-5+ minutes for a game to start, comms to be picked, etc... why not make use of that time.

    Just make new players (green status) unable to become non-rookie until the objectives have been completed AND they have at least x number of hours of playtime. Also, have something like pregame+ that could only be accessed by non-rookies. So, you could ignore the pre-game tutorials, but you'd never be able to get to buy exo's etc. in pregame until you finished it.
  • SantaClawsSantaClaws Denmark Join Date: 2012-07-31 Member: 154491Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Wheeee wrote: »
    Well, how about incorporating tutorials into the pregame.

    Countless times people have to wait 3-5+ minutes for a game to start, comms to be picked, etc... why not make use of that time.

    Just make new players (green status) unable to become non-rookie until the objectives have been completed AND they have at least x number of hours of playtime. Also, have something like pregame+ that could only be accessed by non-rookies. So, you could ignore the pre-game tutorials, but you'd never be able to get to buy exo's etc. in pregame until you finished it.
    OMG Co-op tutorials during pregames. Geniussss!!!! xD
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    Wheeee wrote: »
    Well, how about incorporating tutorials into the pregame.

    Countless times people have to wait 3-5+ minutes for a game to start, comms to be picked, etc... why not make use of that time.

    Just make new players (green status) unable to become non-rookie until the objectives have been completed AND they have at least x number of hours of playtime. Also, have something like pregame+ that could only be accessed by non-rookies. So, you could ignore the pre-game tutorials, but you'd never be able to get to buy exo's etc. in pregame until you finished it.

    I like this idea. The only problem I can see is it would be confusing for rookies -- who I've already seen asking questions like "what's going on?" during pregame because they don't realize the difference between pregame and a real game -- who are suddenly plucked out from the middle of a tutorial into a real game.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    On screen messages should be enough to inform new players of "pregame missions".

    If pregame+ is too complicated (being a mod and not official), make it official!

    Maybe a button to opt in located on the Command Chair/Hive that starts the mission.


    However its done, this will make pregame a lot more fun while waiting for comms/players and also having minigames (maybe even ranked in hive?) would make seeding servers much more fun.
Sign In or Register to comment.