@Soul_Rider Even starting with a small mod, there isn't anything close to adequate documentation on where to even start.
this so much this
as a very experienced programmer trying to make a series of very simple mods for this game, i had an unbelievable amount of trouble getting them done and it took like a week asking different people in cdt how to compile them with launchpad before one finally decided to answer my simple question (i think it was mendasp)
@Soul_Rider Even starting with a small mod, there isn't anything close to adequate documentation on where to even start. I think if CDT were able to produce such a guide, it might open the door to a lot of beginner modders (possibly myself), which in turn might produce some cool new content, which just might lead to a few new players.
*EDIT
If the CDT doesn't have the time to write one, maybe the guys over at FLG could help (assuming combat is similar enough to ns2). They seem to be able to get stuff into the game easily: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbjKqkKOIfM
Hey, I knew NOTHING about modding or lua when I started with NS2. There was no documentation when I started, and there is a lot more documentation now..
Nothing worth doing is ever easy. Just dive in, start making changes to the code and see what happens.
Then , when you get stuck on things, ask.
I have moved from modding to making games in Unity, and while there is a lot more documentation, I still feel completely lost. That is how programming is. You are always learning and being challenged.
Essentially you have a choice:
Decry the fact there is no documentation, and how you cannot make a mod without it, and thus, never make your mod.
or
You can say, there is no documentation, but plenty of other people have made mods, so it must be possible, and go for it
Heck, I didn't even have that to say as I was one of the first people to attempt making a full game mod, That was Proving Grounds way back when NS2 was still in alpha...
Have a read through my Proving Grounds and GorgeCraft threads, and see how much I didn't know, and also take a look at the help provided by people in the threads, as you can see, there are some really helpful members of this community.
You *think* the lack of documentation is a hindrance, instead *think* of it as a challenge. It will make your achievements taste even better knowing you had to learn all this with no documentation
Yeah, my journey through the world of modding NS2 was similar to Soul_Rider's, when I started I did a lot things wrong (I'm pretty sure I still have some old and ugly stuff in the NS2+ code) and I pretty much tried to look everywhere I could in the existing code base (and other mod's) to see how something was done and then try to adapt it for my own purpose, and eventually I did enough of a lot of things that I could do bigger things. I haven't felt like the lack of documentation was a huge problem since you can always look up the code and see the functions or their usage, not that it wouldn't be nice to have actual docs, but it doesn't really stop you from making a mod.
Although it is confusing as hell if you want your mod to play nice with others and the different entry points because of the outdated tutorials and such...
ScatterJoin Date: 2012-09-02Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
I had zero programming background other than some engineering matlab from uni and have low programming talent and managed to figure out modding in ns2. It's just a case of learning where things are and looking at what the functions are doing. All this talk of documentation and sitting around forever planning and making notes is just a waste of time tbh.
I had zero programming background other than some engineering matlab from uni and have low programming talent and managed to figure out modding in ns2. It's just a case of learning where things are and looking at what the functions are doing. All this talk of documentation and sitting around forever planning and making notes is just a waste of time tbh.
Documentation is never a waste of time. It will always be better with it than without. It doesn't means it is required but far more useful than nothing.
For people like myself with little to no coding experience, just trying to "figure it out" isn't really an option. If that's the way it has to be done, it will most likely turn a lot of potential modders off to even attempting to mod. Personally, I tried to mod a lua file in the ns2 directory (change ammo amount) and every time I launch ns2, I get "files do not match the server" error and kicked - from my own server! I have no idea what to do and no conclusive documentation (at least that I've been able to find by searching "mod documentation" and such). So I'm at a dead end before even starting
Yeah, my journey through the world of modding NS2 was similar to Soul_Rider's, when I started I did a lot things wrong (I'm pretty sure I still have some old and ugly stuff in the NS2+ code) and I pretty much tried to look everywhere I could in the existing code base (and other mod's) to see how something was done and then try to adapt it for my own purpose, and eventually I did enough of a lot of things that I could do bigger things. I haven't felt like the lack of documentation was a huge problem since you can always look up the code and see the functions or their usage, not that it wouldn't be nice to have actual docs, but it doesn't really stop you from making a mod.
Although it is confusing as hell if you want your mod to play nice with others and the different entry points because of the outdated tutorials and such...
Confusing too to figure out where member functions are declared when that class has like a billion parent classes. Got tired of searching around realll fast.
I'm actually looking into modding. At the moment I'm trying to get an axe to light everything on fire. But like other games I tried to mod, it doesn't work.
GhoulofGSG9Join Date: 2013-03-31Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
edited June 2015
Well without knowing the basics of coding in general you won't come far with gamecode modding
The issue with the lack of good docs is that they take a lot time to make and are usually boring to create and i guess UWE was super busy with creating the game at given time where it would have made sense to start to write such docs.
I understand the economical problem for a company, but in the mean time UWE was announcing the mod support for this game. You can't discard some kind of critical documentation when choosing that angle. Or at least you have to be specific about what the modders would be able to do (only maps etc...). Otherwise it's like any other company. I'm sad to say that but it's the truth.
I understand the economical problem for a company, but in the mean time UWE was announcing the mod support for this game. You can't discard some kind of critical documentation when choosing that angle. Or at least you have to be specific about what the modders would be able to do (only maps etc...). Otherwise it's like any other company. I'm sad to say that but it's the truth.
Actually it's not unusual that game devs didn't release many docs about modding their game. Basically most of them only supported you with the basic informations about the tools to use.
This changed quiet a lot in the last years as user generated content got more and more important for certain companies.
So far i "modded" quiet a few games (started back in 2002) and most of the games never had any guides provided by the developers directly.
Most times modding was just possible thanks to the fact that some geniuses wrote pretty detailed docs and frameworks.
Now you can ask why doesn't such kind of guides also exist for ns2.
Imho this is caused by the fact how rapid ns2 changed code wise all the time. So if anyone would have started to write a guide often he would have to restart writing it after any of the larger ns2 patches.
This results in that creating such ns2 modding docs would have consumed incredibly much time, which most ns2 modders (who would have been capable of writing such guides) needed to keep their active mods working and on track with the ns2 updates.
Basically it gets down to the same points matso already mentioned.
What UWE did other than any company at that time: their game code is fully written in a script language and therefor 100% mod-able for anyone without much work in matters of de-/compiling, linking etc. .
Now you can ask why doesn't such kind of guides also exist for ns2.
Imho this is caused by the fact how rapid ns2 changed code wise all the time. So if anyone would have started to write a guide often he would have to restart writing it after any of the larger ns2 patches.
If UWE or CDT just add 2 lines of comments to each function they are working on at this moment it could help a lot. After 1 year they will have >30% of code covered with comments.
@Soul_Rider Even starting with a small mod, there isn't anything close to adequate documentation on where to even start. I think if CDT were able to produce such a guide, it might open the door to a lot of beginner modders (possibly myself), which in turn might produce some cool new content, which just might lead to a few new players.
*EDIT
If the CDT doesn't have the time to write one, maybe the guys over at FLG could help (assuming combat is similar enough to ns2). They seem to be able to get stuff into the game easily: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbjKqkKOIfM
Fyi those weapon/ sentry models are pretty easy to implement considering most of the raw work is actually the modeling(in which case if you wanted you could convert any gun to work with ns2), they're using bones which were implemented for HMG for NS1(you yourself can take any model from 3dsmax and replace the ones inside the rigging) and the sentry gun is just scaled bigger for certain parts.
I mean for me i replaced the axe with a giant dildo and replace a jetpack with the a space-rocket, problem is getting server owners to whitelist, it's easy enough to get specific servers, i could get 4 popular servers in different regions of the world to whitelist some of my internal mods easily since i know the owners personally, but none of them are extremely polished enough
The problem for me is implementing new weapons, and structures into ns2
3DSMAX isn't free... That's another failure on UWE side. The average gamer won't invest several thousands (From 4500$/3yrs to more) for no Return.
This tends to put the average moder in a difficult position.
the moder can do 3D stuff but won't because he doesn't own the necessary software.
the moder can and will do by using a cracked software.
Another extremely rare kind of people owns a legit license and will do. Usually it's an artist that get paid for that precise thing... ... ... ... ... ... (I like dots).
I've put development for ns2_nothing on hold for two main reasons:
- Player numbers
- Server map rotations mainly focus on official maps
People only want to play highly tested and balance maps (which is fair enough), so custom maps hardly get played. In saying that, it's a double edged sword because you need players to identify changes in your map, but people only want to play the highly tested/balanced maps.
If only we had the custom map community like we had back in the NS1 days.
I'll forever stand by the fact that every map is automatically balanced for a 2 round match. Too bad that it's not a compelling argument and doesn't make people prefer variety and flavor.
I fucking hate Dunkin' Donuts... But it is... consistent... I suppose
A map is balanced when either team has an equal chance to win a round. Not when a two round game ends in a tie.
By your criteria, two entirely separate maps where the game ends when you can ark through an impassable wall would be balanced.
3DSMAX isn't free... That's another failure on UWE side.
I'm going to take this quote out of context b/c I find it so damn hilarious.
EDIT: I thought of something relevant to say: it's not unusual AT ALL for a game company to never provide free modeling tools for modders... in fact I'd say that's extremely unusual if they were to do so. 3DSMax is what you need to make models for starcraft II as well, Blizzard, a MASSIVE company, has not provided free tools for Blender either.
I've put development for ns2_nothing on hold for two main reasons:
- Player numbers
- Server map rotations mainly focus on official maps
People only want to play highly tested and balance maps (which is fair enough), so custom maps hardly get played. In saying that, it's a double edged sword because you need players to identify changes in your map, but people only want to play the highly tested/balanced maps.
If only we had the custom map community like we had back in the NS1 days.
I'll forever stand by the fact that every map is automatically balanced for a 2 round match. Too bad that it's not a compelling argument and doesn't make people prefer variety and flavor.
I fucking hate Dunkin' Donuts... But it is... consistent... I suppose
A map is balanced when either team has an equal chance to win a round. Not when a two round game ends in a tie.
By your criteria, two entirely separate maps where the game ends when you can ark through an impassable wall would be balanced.
That would, in fact, be balanced.
My point isn't to make stupid maps where one team wins every time.
My point is that amazing maps will get ruined by trying to avoid a 70/30 win rate. Not every map has to have a 50/50 outcome, it just creates a moba. There's a sense of accomplishment when you can win a round together on the 30% side that you can never get from a map balanced 50/50. Everyone loses out on that
There is no such thing as a 50/50 balance on maps or in the gameplay. You already fight with an advantage or a disadvantage on most maps even if it's 55-45 or 60-40, it's already massive
But this :
If you talk about winrates, you can actually get away with surprisingly big bias as long as it feels like the losing side has a good fighting chance. For example Brood War is probably way more imbalanced in winrates than Starcraft 2, but Starcraft 2 still gets way more critisism and probably deservedly so.
The idea is that the underdog team needs fun and interesting ways to play better and interact and punish the enemy. In Brood War you had so many ways to play a better game that it didn't matter awfully much even if the enemy was statistical favourite. Meanwhile SC2 simplified a quite a few interactions and challenges in the game and as a result the level of play is much closers to ideal and optimal performance. This leads to situations where even a relatively small bias can make the game seem very unfair at times and can make those small biases spin out of control in certain maps or matchups at certain skill level and so on.
Basically it's a very game and context specific thing how much winrate bias you can have. Usually the more varied storyline the round has and the more interactive and skill intense the game design is, the more advantage one side can have before things get unpleasant. However, it's still always more game specific thing than anything else.
3DSMAX isn't free... That's another failure on UWE side.
I'm going to take this quote out of context b/c I find it so damn hilarious.
EDIT: I thought of something relevant to say: it's not unusual AT ALL for a game company to never provide free modeling tools for modders... in fact I'd say that's extremely unusual if they were to do so. 3DSMax is what you need to make models for starcraft II as well, Blizzard, a MASSIVE company, has not provided free tools for Blender either.
I'm not talking about modeling tools... i fear misunderstanding.
What I say is this :
Providing the tools to edit maps and modify textures is ok. Even more, it's great. When UWE clearly announced publicly that they would support NS modding community, it did ring in the ears of anyone. First question that comes in mind is "what's in the dev-kit???".
So the key thing in order to "properly" and completely modify the game is not only to be able to code/script, re-skin and make maps. But to be able to import / export 3D objects (the props) in order to create new styles (themes etc). Even if we can only make static props; it's ok. Otherwise we could make entire new game isn't it? So let's stay with the static props only.
UWE did make the 3DSmax9 exporter available. That's the joke/failure. Anyone that wants to export from 3D to the "target file format" has to use this plugin/module that is only running with 3DSmax9. So basically you have to be rich or a professional (at least in 3D) to do that. Face palm...
Do you think it's the usual modder profile, or a young person trying to start a career in this industry (usually poor) ? Don't worry I'm not willing to start one, i did 20yrs ago and I'm out now. Even if it is 3DSmax9 which isn't available anymore; you have to pay the for KEY. The other option is called piracy.
edit: i just found this I think we're on the same page and if my poor AnGolish did that, I'm sincerely sorry.
It can lead to bad stories concerning bad behavior of some company that can... how can i say that?... "Took over" the work of some other people because they weren't cautious enough about these kind of things. It wouldn't be the first time.
So the joke/UWE failure is about this. A game company provides the tools to export props for the game, but not usable by anyone who supports free software or willing to stay clean considering piracy (or simply can't buy 3DS). So the modders are stuck. Doh!!!
The failure is UWE obviously didn't think about that. Well.. I'm speechless on that one.
The second joke about same topic but from another angle. Well done my friend, you are the author of that one!!! (willingly or not). I'm not sure it's a joke. More like a punch in the UWE's face.
Let's traceback the facts :
You create an exporter for Blender. It's still WIP (as initial post says) but the POC is here.
You prove that it is possible -> Pow!!! in your face UWE! I don't know how much time it took for you to do it. If UWE had used the same amount of time for creating such an exporter 2 YEARS 1/2 ago we wouldn't have this conversation. What i want to say is : providing the tool and environments for modders would have eventually extended the sales on the long run. And the player base...
As a consequence you put yourself in a position of being the 'support' for the community while it is supposed to be UWE that does it.
That made my day. Many thanks for that.
PS:
Oh and in January i was rusty on Blender. So i focused on mapping instead and re-training in Blender.
I was not able to make the props exporter run on B2.73 (some path bug if memory serves). I installed Blender 2.74 since. Is it compatible with 2.74 / not WIP anymore ?
3DSMAX isn't free... That's another failure on UWE side.
I'm going to take this quote out of context b/c I find it so damn hilarious.
EDIT: I thought of something relevant to say: it's not unusual AT ALL for a game company to never provide free modeling tools for modders... in fact I'd say that's extremely unusual if they were to do so. 3DSMax is what you need to make models for starcraft II as well, Blizzard, a MASSIVE company, has not provided free tools for Blender either.
I'm not talking about modeling tools... i fear misunderstanding.
What I say is this :
Providing the tools to edit maps and modify textures is ok. Even more, it's great. When UWE clearly announced publicly that they would support NS modding community, it did ring in the ears of anyone. First question that comes in mind is "what's in the dev-kit???".
So the key thing in order to "properly" and completely modify the game is not only to be able to code/script, re-skin and make maps. But to be able to import / export 3D objects (the props) in order to create new styles (themes etc). Even if we can only make static props; it's ok. Otherwise we could make entire new game isn't it? So let's stay with the static props only.
UWE did make the 3DSmax9 exporter available. That's the joke/failure. Anyone that wants to export from 3D to the "target file format" has to use this plugin/module that is only running with 3DSmax9. So basically you have to be rich or a professional (at least in 3D) to do that. Face palm...
Do you think it's the usual modder profile, or a young person trying to start a career in this industry (usually poor) ? Don't worry I'm not willing to start one, i did 20yrs ago and I'm out now. Even if it is 3DSmax9 which isn't available anymore; you have to pay the for KEY. The other option is called piracy.
edit: i just found this I think we're on the same page and if my poor AnGolish did that, I'm sincerely sorry.
It can lead to bad stories concerning bad behavior of some company that can... how can i say that?... "Took over" the work of some other people because they weren't cautious enough about these kind of things. It wouldn't be the first time.
So the joke/UWE failure is about this. A game company provides the tools to export props for the game, but not usable by anyone who supports free software or willing to stay clean considering piracy (or simply can't buy 3DS). So the modders are stuck. Doh!!!
The failure is UWE obviously didn't think about that. Well.. I'm speechless on that one.
The second joke about same topic but from another angle. Well done my friend, you are the author of that one!!! (willingly or not). I'm not sure it's a joke. More like a punch in the UWE's face.
Let's traceback the facts :
You create an exporter for Blender. It's still WIP (as initial post says) but the POC is here.
You prove that it is possible -> Pow!!! in your face UWE! I don't know how much time it took for you to do it. If UWE had used the same amount of time for creating such an exporter 2 YEARS 1/2 ago we wouldn't have this conversation. What i want to say is : providing the tool and environments for modders would have eventually extended the sales on the long run. And the player base...
As a consequence you put yourself in a position of being the 'support' for the community while it is supposed to be UWE that does it.
That made my day. Many thanks for that.
PS:
Oh and in January i was rusty on Blender. So i focused on mapping instead and re-training in Blender.
I was not able to make the props exporter run on B2.73 (some path bug if memory serves). I installed Blender 2.74 since. Is it compatible with 2.74 / not WIP anymore ?
Oh wow, I had forgotten about that topic! Hahaha, yea I guess it's kind of come full circle.
Let me just say though, I'm not making the Blender exporter as a "punch in the face to UWE". While it would have just been AWESOME if they had written a Blender exporter, that means they would have also had to write a max exporter as well, because even though blender is free therefore a great choice for the modding community, this is not usually the choice tool for professional artists, ie the people making all of the content for the game. This would not only have added on a lot of extra development time, on top of their already lagging schedule (remember, they had to build their own game engine from scratch!!!). Would it have been worth it? I don't know. But I DO know they would have broken by now b/c of Blender updates, so regardless we wouldn't have working tools for the game, unless they continually updated their blender exporter.
Again, I'm not making this tool out of spite, I'm making it for the community in the hopes that it will encourage more custom content for the game, more than simple re-skins. My plan is to also make the art pipeline a bit more streamlined. Currently, the way the art pipeline is setup for animated models, you have a TON of files cluttering up your modelsrc directory: 1) a model_compile file, 2) DAE file for base mesh, 3) an extra DAE file for each physics rep you want in the game (eg "default", "move"), 4) extra DAE files for EVERY ANIMATION. When my blender exporter is "finished", all of the model related files will be self-contained, and buildable (ie able to run through builder to generate content for "output" folder) in a SINGLE .blend file. All of the model_compile parameters (eg declaring of animation nodes and sequences, frame ranges, model scaling, attachment points, etc) will be configured in a built-in blender text-block, rather than an external text file.
I've put development for ns2_nothing on hold for two main reasons:
- Player numbers
- Server map rotations mainly focus on official maps
People only want to play highly tested and balance maps (which is fair enough), so custom maps hardly get played. In saying that, it's a double edged sword because you need players to identify changes in your map, but people only want to play the highly tested/balanced maps.
If only we had the custom map community like we had back in the NS1 days.
I'll forever stand by the fact that every map is automatically balanced for a 2 round match. Too bad that it's not a compelling argument and doesn't make people prefer variety and flavor.
I fucking hate Dunkin' Donuts... But it is... consistent... I suppose
A map is balanced when either team has an equal chance to win a round. Not when a two round game ends in a tie.
By your criteria, two entirely separate maps where the game ends when you can ark through an impassable wall would be balanced.
That would, in fact, be balanced.
My point isn't to make stupid maps where one team wins every time.
My point is that amazing maps will get ruined by trying to avoid a 70/30 win rate. Not every map has to have a 50/50 outcome, it just creates a moba. There's a sense of accomplishment when you can win a round together on the 30% side that you can never get from a map balanced 50/50. Everyone loses out on that
It wouldn't be balanced because it wouldn't be a game. A game seems to require that input of some kind affects the outcome... Unless you're slots.
I've put development for ns2_nothing on hold for two main reasons:
- Player numbers
- Server map rotations mainly focus on official maps
People only want to play highly tested and balance maps (which is fair enough), so custom maps hardly get played. In saying that, it's a double edged sword because you need players to identify changes in your map, but people only want to play the highly tested/balanced maps.
If only we had the custom map community like we had back in the NS1 days.
I'll forever stand by the fact that every map is automatically balanced for a 2 round match. Too bad that it's not a compelling argument and doesn't make people prefer variety and flavor.
I fucking hate Dunkin' Donuts... But it is... consistent... I suppose
A map is balanced when either team has an equal chance to win a round. Not when a two round game ends in a tie.
By your criteria, two entirely separate maps where the game ends when you can ark through an impassable wall would be balanced.
That would, in fact, be balanced.
My point isn't to make stupid maps where one team wins every time.
My point is that amazing maps will get ruined by trying to avoid a 70/30 win rate. Not every map has to have a 50/50 outcome, it just creates a moba. There's a sense of accomplishment when you can win a round together on the 30% side that you can never get from a map balanced 50/50. Everyone loses out on that
It wouldn't be balanced because it wouldn't be a game. A game seems to require that input of some kind affects the outcome... Unless you're slots.
So basically you have to be rich or a professional (at least in 3D) to do that.
No you don't.
If you're a student it's even easier... but that still not the only way.
Again though, I believe their point regarding supporting modding was regarding the open source game code in LUA, and exposed assets.
The student trick is only for students. IF it's available in the country in which lives the student. Not everything is available, or at the same price depending on the courses the student takes. A Poetry course does not give access to 3DS, or with full price reduction (savings?). It's different in every country and IF the software company have a contract/agreement with local organizations dealing with this kind of stuff.
So in this case, you would have to be a student, in a country were it is available, in the right professional branch. He/she still pays... A student have many trouble, one of them is money. It's the same in every country (being there). And this guy have to be willing and have time to make props for NS2... needle, haystack...
The other option would be to buy a Key that someone will sell at a low price. This is usually hard to find if not impossible. The people that have this CD-Key (an legit ones) have probably upgraded to newer version of the software (so they keep the key). And it's still about money. Above 50$/€ or 100€/$ isn't gonna be possible for modder as they usually prefer to spend money (if they have some), on other things (eventually).
Buying a key on-line may be risky as it would be illegal. As an example a game company revoked in 2014/2015 many CD-keys because the seller wasn't complying to the price rules (selling in a country at price he shouldn't). Also It can be stolen CD-keys.
I don't see many options other than that. Feel free to provide informations on the "other ways". I'm sure many mapper/modder would like to hear it. Excluding of course "torrent"', "Newsgroup", "generous companies that lends Key" (does a generous company exists ?), and such. Also excluding "free evaluation copies". It's always limited in time. The usual issue : Someone finds a bug you need to fix in a props you did one year later. I guess the evaluation time expired...
I mean a process with 100% success (to get it), legally (registered), everywhere on the planet. I must say I have doubts.
3. The modding tools themselves aren't great (the cinematic editor doesn't even work)
I was hoping for some documentation. The cinematic editor does work. It's just - well. confuzzling. It's like when I wake up in the morning and only find two clean mismatched socks. Eventually over-time you learn how to use what you have - and make the best of it.
Of course you could always boycott shampoo - and demand the REAL poo! We use what we have.
---
DMD (diamondgamers.net ) is currently working on creating four maps. ns_nancy, ns_hera, ns_ayumi, and ns_origin. They are built - to NS1 scale. as a 2.0 version. There is no way we'd be able to do this if we didn't get the help from more experienced modders - like @BeigeAlert or @WiseChoices . I appreciated the youtube videos from @mendasp - and was able to figure it out on my own from there.
We can't expect the CDT to create the documentation. I'd rather the @CDT focus on fixing the linux server builds so servers stop crashing so frequently. Anyone can contribute. but maybe the CDT can start a public wiki or something? @sotanaht If your map is balanced, I'd have no problem loading it onto one of the DMD servers. We love custom maps.
The reason why people don't vote imho for custom maps. Is that they are not balanced.
Tanith is an example. The map looks and feels good, but it was built for NS1. Not NS2.
Marines win 90% of the time. But this map would work awesome on my NS2 Classic server. ( It'll be pretty awesome once we have all the old NS1 maps ready and online. ( Can't wait to weld some doors, and electrify my rt's! WOOT )
Comments
so much this
as a very experienced programmer trying to make a series of very simple mods for this game, i had an unbelievable amount of trouble getting them done and it took like a week asking different people in cdt how to compile them with launchpad before one finally decided to answer my simple question (i think it was mendasp)
Nothing worth doing is ever easy. Just dive in, start making changes to the code and see what happens.
Then , when you get stuck on things, ask.
I have moved from modding to making games in Unity, and while there is a lot more documentation, I still feel completely lost. That is how programming is. You are always learning and being challenged.
Essentially you have a choice:
Decry the fact there is no documentation, and how you cannot make a mod without it, and thus, never make your mod.
or
You can say, there is no documentation, but plenty of other people have made mods, so it must be possible, and go for it
Heck, I didn't even have that to say as I was one of the first people to attempt making a full game mod, That was Proving Grounds way back when NS2 was still in alpha...
Have a read through my Proving Grounds and GorgeCraft threads, and see how much I didn't know, and also take a look at the help provided by people in the threads, as you can see, there are some really helpful members of this community.
You *think* the lack of documentation is a hindrance, instead *think* of it as a challenge. It will make your achievements taste even better knowing you had to learn all this with no documentation
Although it is confusing as hell if you want your mod to play nice with others and the different entry points because of the outdated tutorials and such...
Documentation is never a waste of time. It will always be better with it than without. It doesn't means it is required but far more useful than nothing.
The issue with the lack of good docs is that they take a lot time to make and are usually boring to create and i guess UWE was super busy with creating the game at given time where it would have made sense to start to write such docs.
This changed quiet a lot in the last years as user generated content got more and more important for certain companies.
So far i "modded" quiet a few games (started back in 2002) and most of the games never had any guides provided by the developers directly.
Most times modding was just possible thanks to the fact that some geniuses wrote pretty detailed docs and frameworks.
Now you can ask why doesn't such kind of guides also exist for ns2.
Imho this is caused by the fact how rapid ns2 changed code wise all the time. So if anyone would have started to write a guide often he would have to restart writing it after any of the larger ns2 patches.
This results in that creating such ns2 modding docs would have consumed incredibly much time, which most ns2 modders (who would have been capable of writing such guides) needed to keep their active mods working and on track with the ns2 updates.
Basically it gets down to the same points matso already mentioned.
What UWE did other than any company at that time: their game code is fully written in a script language and therefor 100% mod-able for anyone without much work in matters of de-/compiling, linking etc. .
I mean for me i replaced the axe with a giant dildo and replace a jetpack with the a space-rocket, problem is getting server owners to whitelist, it's easy enough to get specific servers, i could get 4 popular servers in different regions of the world to whitelist some of my internal mods easily since i know the owners personally, but none of them are extremely polished enough
The problem for me is implementing new weapons, and structures into ns2
This tends to put the average moder in a difficult position.
- the moder can do 3D stuff but won't because he doesn't own the necessary software.
- the moder can and will do by using a cracked software.
Another extremely rare kind of people owns a legit license and will do. Usually it's an artist that get paid for that precise thing... ... ... ... ... ... (I like dots).My first mod? Changing some variables values to see what change it made.
I cannot stress how much of a programming nothing/noob/beginner when I started with NS2.
A map is balanced when either team has an equal chance to win a round. Not when a two round game ends in a tie.
By your criteria, two entirely separate maps where the game ends when you can ark through an impassable wall would be balanced.
I'm going to take this quote out of context b/c I find it so damn hilarious.
EDIT: I thought of something relevant to say: it's not unusual AT ALL for a game company to never provide free modeling tools for modders... in fact I'd say that's extremely unusual if they were to do so. 3DSMax is what you need to make models for starcraft II as well, Blizzard, a MASSIVE company, has not provided free tools for Blender either.
That would, in fact, be balanced.
My point isn't to make stupid maps where one team wins every time.
My point is that amazing maps will get ruined by trying to avoid a 70/30 win rate. Not every map has to have a 50/50 outcome, it just creates a moba. There's a sense of accomplishment when you can win a round together on the 30% side that you can never get from a map balanced 50/50. Everyone loses out on that
But this :
That's what I've been saying the whole time. ( of course assuming the gameplay itself in somewhat balanced as well )
The idea is that the underdog team needs fun and interesting ways to play better and interact and punish the enemy. In Brood War you had so many ways to play a better game that it didn't matter awfully much even if the enemy was statistical favourite. Meanwhile SC2 simplified a quite a few interactions and challenges in the game and as a result the level of play is much closers to ideal and optimal performance. This leads to situations where even a relatively small bias can make the game seem very unfair at times and can make those small biases spin out of control in certain maps or matchups at certain skill level and so on.
Basically it's a very game and context specific thing how much winrate bias you can have. Usually the more varied storyline the round has and the more interactive and skill intense the game design is, the more advantage one side can have before things get unpleasant. However, it's still always more game specific thing than anything else.
I'm not talking about modeling tools... i fear misunderstanding.
What I say is this :
Providing the tools to edit maps and modify textures is ok. Even more, it's great. When UWE clearly announced publicly that they would support NS modding community, it did ring in the ears of anyone. First question that comes in mind is "what's in the dev-kit???".
So the key thing in order to "properly" and completely modify the game is not only to be able to code/script, re-skin and make maps. But to be able to import / export 3D objects (the props) in order to create new styles (themes etc). Even if we can only make static props; it's ok. Otherwise we could make entire new game isn't it? So let's stay with the static props only.
UWE did make the 3DSmax9 exporter available. That's the joke/failure. Anyone that wants to export from 3D to the "target file format" has to use this plugin/module that is only running with 3DSmax9. So basically you have to be rich or a professional (at least in 3D) to do that. Face palm...
Do you think it's the usual modder profile, or a young person trying to start a career in this industry (usually poor) ? Don't worry I'm not willing to start one, i did 20yrs ago and I'm out now. Even if it is 3DSmax9 which isn't available anymore; you have to pay the for KEY. The other option is called piracy.
edit: i just found this I think we're on the same page and if my poor AnGolish did that, I'm sincerely sorry.
It can lead to bad stories concerning bad behavior of some company that can... how can i say that?... "Took over" the work of some other people because they weren't cautious enough about these kind of things. It wouldn't be the first time.
So the joke/UWE failure is about this. A game company provides the tools to export props for the game, but not usable by anyone who supports free software or willing to stay clean considering piracy (or simply can't buy 3DS). So the modders are stuck. Doh!!!
The failure is UWE obviously didn't think about that. Well.. I'm speechless on that one.
The second joke about same topic but from another angle. Well done my friend, you are the author of that one!!! (willingly or not). I'm not sure it's a joke. More like a punch in the UWE's face.
Let's traceback the facts :
That made my day. Many thanks for that.
PS:
Oh and in January i was rusty on Blender. So i focused on mapping instead and re-training in Blender.
I was not able to make the props exporter run on B2.73 (some path bug if memory serves). I installed Blender 2.74 since. Is it compatible with 2.74 / not WIP anymore ?
Oh wow, I had forgotten about that topic! Hahaha, yea I guess it's kind of come full circle.
Let me just say though, I'm not making the Blender exporter as a "punch in the face to UWE". While it would have just been AWESOME if they had written a Blender exporter, that means they would have also had to write a max exporter as well, because even though blender is free therefore a great choice for the modding community, this is not usually the choice tool for professional artists, ie the people making all of the content for the game. This would not only have added on a lot of extra development time, on top of their already lagging schedule (remember, they had to build their own game engine from scratch!!!). Would it have been worth it? I don't know. But I DO know they would have broken by now b/c of Blender updates, so regardless we wouldn't have working tools for the game, unless they continually updated their blender exporter.
Again, I'm not making this tool out of spite, I'm making it for the community in the hopes that it will encourage more custom content for the game, more than simple re-skins. My plan is to also make the art pipeline a bit more streamlined. Currently, the way the art pipeline is setup for animated models, you have a TON of files cluttering up your modelsrc directory: 1) a model_compile file, 2) DAE file for base mesh, 3) an extra DAE file for each physics rep you want in the game (eg "default", "move"), 4) extra DAE files for EVERY ANIMATION. When my blender exporter is "finished", all of the model related files will be self-contained, and buildable (ie able to run through builder to generate content for "output" folder) in a SINGLE .blend file. All of the model_compile parameters (eg declaring of animation nodes and sequences, frame ranges, model scaling, attachment points, etc) will be configured in a built-in blender text-block, rather than an external text file.
If you're a student it's even easier... but that still not the only way.
Again though, I believe their point regarding supporting modding was regarding the open source game code in LUA, and exposed assets.
@amoral that doesn't make sense.
The student trick is only for students. IF it's available in the country in which lives the student. Not everything is available, or at the same price depending on the courses the student takes. A Poetry course does not give access to 3DS, or with full price reduction (savings?). It's different in every country and IF the software company have a contract/agreement with local organizations dealing with this kind of stuff.
So in this case, you would have to be a student, in a country were it is available, in the right professional branch. He/she still pays... A student have many trouble, one of them is money. It's the same in every country (being there). And this guy have to be willing and have time to make props for NS2... needle, haystack...
The other option would be to buy a Key that someone will sell at a low price. This is usually hard to find if not impossible. The people that have this CD-Key (an legit ones) have probably upgraded to newer version of the software (so they keep the key). And it's still about money. Above 50$/€ or 100€/$ isn't gonna be possible for modder as they usually prefer to spend money (if they have some), on other things (eventually).
Buying a key on-line may be risky as it would be illegal. As an example a game company revoked in 2014/2015 many CD-keys because the seller wasn't complying to the price rules (selling in a country at price he shouldn't). Also It can be stolen CD-keys.
I don't see many options other than that. Feel free to provide informations on the "other ways". I'm sure many mapper/modder would like to hear it. Excluding of course "torrent"', "Newsgroup", "generous companies that lends Key" (does a generous company exists ?), and such. Also excluding "free evaluation copies". It's always limited in time. The usual issue : Someone finds a bug you need to fix in a props you did one year later. I guess the evaluation time expired...
I mean a process with 100% success (to get it), legally (registered), everywhere on the planet. I must say I have doubts.
That must explain why nobody did a "prop mod"...
Of course you could always boycott shampoo - and demand the REAL poo! We use what we have.
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DMD (diamondgamers.net ) is currently working on creating four maps. ns_nancy, ns_hera, ns_ayumi, and ns_origin. They are built - to NS1 scale. as a 2.0 version. There is no way we'd be able to do this if we didn't get the help from more experienced modders - like @BeigeAlert or @WiseChoices . I appreciated the youtube videos from @mendasp - and was able to figure it out on my own from there.
We can't expect the CDT to create the documentation. I'd rather the @CDT focus on fixing the linux server builds so servers stop crashing so frequently. Anyone can contribute. but maybe the CDT can start a public wiki or something?
@sotanaht If your map is balanced, I'd have no problem loading it onto one of the DMD servers. We love custom maps.
The reason why people don't vote imho for custom maps. Is that they are not balanced.
Tanith is an example. The map looks and feels good, but it was built for NS1. Not NS2.
Marines win 90% of the time. But this map would work awesome on my NS2 Classic server. ( It'll be pretty awesome once we have all the old NS1 maps ready and online. ( Can't wait to weld some doors, and electrify my rt's! WOOT )