In-game Predators are Useless and Here’s Why

TotallyLemonTotallyLemon Atlanta Georgia Join Date: 2015-05-22 Member: 204764Members

Here is the ultimate dilemma.

Killing creatures is easy (as it should be in keeping with realism). Unfortunately, there is a problem that goes along with this. 

Players can easily run over predators, or bash them to death. In-game, players don't need predators to be around, so the simple solution is to kill them all (Exhibit A: the gray wolf). The game is currently designed in a way that makes killing every hostile creature, but the Stalker, the most effective strategy (players would kill the Reaper if given the chance). In a game that is (supposedly) predominated by non-violence… this makes no goddamn sense. It’s a blaring inconsistency.

What advantages does non-lethality afford? What do players gain from NOT killing hostile fish? These are the questions that should be asked - they are what define the very dynamics of the game.

I came to a conclusion:

There needs to be an ecological benefit to not massacring fish. Perhaps predators prevent prey from overpopulating, and not killing too many prey creatures will prevent predators from starving. This is the reason why there are hunting restrictions, etc. In reality, over hunting/habitat destruction causes ecological disaster... how about implementing such elements in-game?

Food chains and webs need to play a role in this game's mechanics. I’m taking about working in-game ecology. Despite the games lack of offensive tools, there remain lethal options that cannot be taken away without making the game a steaming pile of pacifistic shit. Having ecological consequences for ravishing local flora/fauna populations would not only serve to make the game more surreal, but also more effective at preventing the senseless violence that this game is supposed to be void of. In the real world, over hunting/fishing creates devastation - devastation that makes environments unsuitable for human habitation. With a working ecology, if a players are too destructive they will ultimately kill themselves... something games like Minecraft totally fail to communicate.

There is a need for repercussions.

TL;DR
Food chains are awesome, and should play a major part in development.

Comments

  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    edited May 2015
    Agreed.  Also, I wish there was a way to kill or incapacitate reapers as they're annoying and scary.  I think rigging the seamoth with explosives (crash meal) then bailing out would work.  
  • DavycannonhoundDavycannonhound Join Date: 2015-02-24 Member: 201527Members
    I know there is a DNA transfuser on the way, so that could bring up a lot of possibilities. Enough to make you want to risk getting your face chewed off by a Bone Shark or Sand Shark to poke them with a needle.
  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    That electrical shock idea makes sense to me Turbo.  You would activate it when he's shaking you and it would scare him off for a while.  
  • R1600TurboR1600Turbo AZ, USA Join Date: 2015-05-03 Member: 204090Members
    That electrical shock idea makes sense to me Turbo.  You would activate it when he's shaking you and it would scare him off for a while.  
    Yep, exactly. 
  • TotallyLemonTotallyLemon Atlanta Georgia Join Date: 2015-05-22 Member: 204764Members
    edited May 2015
    Agreed.  Also, I wish there was a way to kill or incapacitate reapers as they're annoying and scary.  I think rigging the seamoth with explosives (crash meal) then bailing out would work.  
    I actually had an idea the other day, making a modification to the seamoth that would send an electric shock to the Reaper if he grabs a hold of you. It would confuse him long enough that you could try and get away. The downside of the electric shock would be that it depletes the energy for the seamoth a certain percentage. 

    There needs to be some sort of defense against that thing. It's pretty upsetting when you are out exploring and come across one or two of them and can't do anything about it but turn around and leave the area. 

    Oh, and my defense against bleeders is to just run them over with the seamoth. lol

    Yea, some countermeasures would definitely be welcomed - especially if they have good usability. If the solution is too convoluted then players will only become frustrated using it. An electroshock feature for the seamoth is a great idea.

     I imagine it would drain 0.5 to 1% power; perhaps a little more without upgrades (it's always good to add upgrades).

  • FrostyFishFrostyFish Unknown Liquid Bearing World Join Date: 2015-03-28 Member: 202652Members
    There's been Trello Cards talking about Fish Emotion & Interaction to be worked on. Basically fleshing out how the creatures interact in the world and possibly addressing the issue you are talking about.
  • R1600TurboR1600Turbo AZ, USA Join Date: 2015-05-03 Member: 204090Members
    Agreed.  Also, I wish there was a way to kill or incapacitate reapers as they're annoying and scary.  I think rigging the seamoth with explosives (crash meal) then bailing out would work.  
    I actually had an idea the other day, making a modification to the seamoth that would send an electric shock to the Reaper if he grabs a hold of you. It would confuse him long enough that you could try and get away. The downside of the electric shock would be that it depletes the energy for the seamoth a certain percentage. 

    There needs to be some sort of defense against that thing. It's pretty upsetting when you are out exploring and come across one or two of them and can't do anything about it but turn around and leave the area. 

    Oh, and my defense against bleeders is to just run them over with the seamoth. lol

    Yea, some countermeasures would definitely be welcomed - especially if they have good usability. If the solution is too convoluted then players will only become frustrated using it. An electroshock feature for the seamoth is a great idea.

     I imagine it would drain 0.5 to 1% power; perhaps a little more without upgrades (it's always good to add upgrades).

    I could have used it tonight. Wanted to go check the loot crates on the Aurora and decided to go around the back side to make it a bit safer - avoiding the Reapers. Well that didn't work out so great. As soon as I got near the back corner, one spawned right in front of me but thankfully facing the direction I was going. As soon as I saw him I did an about face and ran like crazy bobbing and weaving through the nearby crevices. You wouldn't believe it, but it followed me the whole time. I found some shelter in a small cave and glad I did because he waited for me out there for several minutes before I squeezed the seamoth through the backside of the cave and made a mad dash for my base. 

    Imagine the feeling of sitting in that cave, exiting the seamoth to check out the entrance and seeing him swim by.  :#
  • ReefseekerReefseeker Finland Join Date: 2015-05-21 Member: 204740Members
    R1600Turbo said: I actually had an idea the other day, making a modification to the seamoth that would send an electric shock to the Reaper if he grabs a hold of you. It would confuse him long enough that you could try and get away. The downside of the electric shock would be that it depletes the energy for the seamoth a certain percentage.


    Now there's a nice idea which keeps in line with non-lethality of the game!
  • silverfearsilverfear belgium Join Date: 2015-05-31 Member: 205112Members
    Agreed.  Also, I wish there was a way to kill or incapacitate reapers as they're annoying and scary.  I think rigging the seamoth with explosives (crash meal) then bailing out would work.  
    I actually had an idea the other day, making a modification to the seamoth that would send an electric shock to the Reaper if he grabs a hold of you. It would confuse him long enough that you could try and get away. The downside of the electric shock would be that it depletes the energy for the seamoth a certain percentage. 

    There needs to be some sort of defense against that thing. It's pretty upsetting when you are out exploring and come across one or two of them and can't do anything about it but turn around and leave the area. 

    Oh, and my defense against bleeders is to just run them over with the seamoth. lol
    thats a nice idea :smile: 
  • conscioussoulconscioussoul Canada Join Date: 2015-05-17 Member: 204607Members, Subnautica Playtester
    @TotallyLemon Yes, your idea about the food chain fits right it my own reflections about story and ecology, see here: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/137670/story-progression-ecology-and-more  please let me know what you think!

  • TotallyLemonTotallyLemon Atlanta Georgia Join Date: 2015-05-22 Member: 204764Members
    edited May 2015
    @TotallyLemon ;; Yes, your idea about the food chain fits right it my own reflections about story and ecology, see here: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/137670/story-progression-ecology-and-more ; please let me know what you think!

    I like the prospects of a working ecology, but not so much a finite story. I feel that Subnautica should be a sandbox with a destination, but no road map. Learning about what happened before and what caused the accident is very important, but a standing flag diary seems a bit stale and would take away from the player's own ingenuity. The feeling of "what now?" needs to be preserved. It keeps players asking their own questions, wanting to explore on their own terms, and progressing at their own pace (especially in a game that focuses on the single player experience). That was one of the great merits that Minecraft brought to the forefront... players get to discover things their own way - although it was still the same for everyone else - it makes it feel unique and special to that player. 

    No, I don't want Minecraft underwater, I just like certain dynamics it used to enrich the experience.

    As for sentient life, I feel like either a extinct race of human-level intellects, or evolving sentient life would be nice. I get a feeling this isn't supposed to be a fist contact game. Finding out what happened to an intelligent race that disappeared/left would be interesting, but contacting one seems a bit too radical. Of course, a primitive intelligence would fit right it with the current theme - like an otherworldly Australopithecus. Basically, players should get to play the role of an ancient alien. 
  • reaperLeviathenfoodreaperLeviathenfood florida Join Date: 2015-05-19 Member: 204681Members
    I'm currently against the lethal weps as well, the reason i do not stasis and knife enemies is because I like running from enemies, I play on hardcore and if i did that to all enemies it would be easy, but it wouldnt be a game anymore.  just free-farm to make bigger stuff, nothing to die from except your own fault (water and air) that doesn't sound fun at all, so i do it to preserve the game.  Also keeping with 'role-playing' aspect, if I made a knife I wouldn't go hunting for sharks IRL
  • Captain_PyroCaptain_Pyro Germany Join Date: 2015-05-31 Member: 205116Members
    edited May 2015
    As it is right now, the smaller predators usualy pin me down inside my seamoth (at least when they swim around in swarms). I avoid ramming them because i fear hull damage to my seamoth and maybe that's the way of stopping the slaughter. If rammign a bigger creature would result in huge damage for the seamoth you probably wouldn't dare to challange every shark that comes along.

    To stop poeple from shanking them to pieces, blood in the water could attract other predators from a large area.
    That would make bleeders extra dangerous and the heat knife wouldn't always be the best option to get food, so you won't forget how the fabricated food tastes.
  • R1600TurboR1600Turbo AZ, USA Join Date: 2015-05-03 Member: 204090Members
    edited May 2015

    Also, we've discussed the idea of having a modification to the Seamoth that would allow it to give off an electrical current as a defense mechanism against creatures like the Reapers.  There was a design card created for it quite some time ago, but we've been busy with other things, and we still need to set up the basics of the upgrade system for the Seamoth, first.
    Great minds think alike. :smiley:  

    Oh, and matching colors for the Seamoth and Cyclops would be great. :wink: 
  • aeroripperaeroripper Join Date: 2005-02-25 Member: 42471NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
    Agreed with adjusting the seamoths colors as well.  Changing interior lighting + color for the cyclops would be cool too.  
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    Am I the only one who read the title in Neil deGrasse Tyson's voice?
  • TotallyLemonTotallyLemon Atlanta Georgia Join Date: 2015-05-22 Member: 204764Members
    edited June 2015
    We pretty much agree with a lot of what has been said here.  We really do want creatures to matter to the world and to the player more, and to have there be reasons why you would not want to kill off all the dangerous creatures you come across, now that there is more ability to do so.  

    Also, we've discussed the idea of having a modification to the Seamoth that would allow it to give off an electrical current as a defense mechanism against creatures like the Reapers.  There was a design card created for it quite some time ago, but we've been busy with other things, and we still need to set up the basics of the upgrade system for the Seamoth, first.
    It's good to hear that predators aren't just going to be two-dimensional, so to speak. :smile: 
  • drakueldrakuel california Join Date: 2015-06-04 Member: 205230Members
    edited June 2015
    Based on what I have seen thus far, resources are too easy to obtain. I also have noticed some not all area's with good resources have some predator type creatures lurking around them. I would just keep with that design. Make resources more difficult to obtain by using the natural habitat as it's barrier. Players should have to take risks to gain reward in these type of games or it becomes boring. This would naturally give you a reason to kill them, so you can get to that resource. Also, give reasons to use these tools.. You should have to dive deep and use the dive lines and so forth, to obtain rare metals. 

    Caves should be dangerous and a maze, so one has to map it out to find the good stuff. Of course with this you need your damage system looked at. Health goes down to fast, there should be bleeding and poison attached to the system. There should be ways to stop the bleeder and also counter the poison. Touching things in this ocean should not just be a simple mouse click everything without thought or caution to the player. Oceans are vastly unknown still and dangerous and a alien ocean should be even more so, it should take time and experimentation from the player to "learn" what plant or animal is safe or not and what the properties of it are. Resources should need to be analyzed first to obtain its base property, then your library is updated for next time you hover over it you know it. Fish and naming of plants etc.. All should be unknown initially, this is a new planet for colonization. Unless somehow part of the science data from previous excursions to the planet somehow found it's way to your on board terminal. 

    This would go a long way to not only give more purpose to your dives and encounters but also make the overall feel of the stranded survival feel longer lasting. 

    As it is today, after a few hours in game for me as a player I don't feel like I am trying to survive anymore. More like just trying to see what else I can build or do next. A good example of fear and what has lasting impressions on players is your exploding fish, this is a good example of what I am talking about. 

    Those fish left a scary and survival fear in players as seen on boards and playing, they also usually protected good resources for things inside those small caves. It took time to figure out how to best beat those creatures, but once you did you learned about them and also gained in your knowledge of the ocean a bit more. 

  • LightdevilLightdevil Austria Join Date: 2015-06-10 Member: 205381Members, Subnautica Playtester
    Id just like the idea of just making every predator in this game deadlier, the sand shark for example has such a huge mouth but doesnt really do alot of damage, which it should. Then they should add that if you stab a fish, it will get slowed down, and then you can swim away, rather than just slicing it to death. Just addind a little bit more difficulty to the game would increase the immersion alot for me!
  • TotallyLemonTotallyLemon Atlanta Georgia Join Date: 2015-05-22 Member: 204764Members
    edited June 2015
    Lightdevil wrote: »
    Id just like the idea of just making every predator in this game deadlier, the sand shark for example has such a huge mouth but doesnt really do alot of damage, which it should. Then they should add that if you stab a fish, it will get slowed down, and then you can swim away, rather than just slicing it to death. Just addind a little bit more difficulty to the game would increase the immersion alot for me!

    Real life predators are actually quite benign - unless provoked. The current predators are quite violent by any standards... even on an alien planet.

    Besides the fact this is off topic, Sunautica has never been about hyper deadly/violent creatures. Of course, creatures like the Reaper can kill the player in one hit - plenty of other behemoths are on the way - but because of the massive size and power it's understandable.

    Perhaps there should be a more difficult Hardcore mode and an Unrealistic mode for thoes players that seek a greater challenge. This isn't a horror game after all, and casual players should still feel accommodated.

    As for being able to wound creatures, that would actually help with immersion. Perhaps a similar mechanic could be applied to low health players. Also, being able to hobble aggressive creatures provideds an alternative to outright slaying them.
  • LightdevilLightdevil Austria Join Date: 2015-06-10 Member: 205381Members, Subnautica Playtester
    edited June 2015
    Why can i not post a comment anymore.. EDIT: Apparently I can only do so when I dont quote you? So @TotallyLemon I just thought your idea of giving the player a benefit for not killing all the predators they can find was a good idea but not easy to implement. So i thought of another way to atleast stop players from slaughtering every fish they see, which i think is paramount to making predators useful. Making predators more dangerous in a way that they do not turn into hyper aggressive beasts, but just increasing their damage output, while implementing a mechanic to help the player get away so the game does not get harder seemed like a good way to do so. In fact, i believe this would support a more defensive more careful playstyle, instead of an aggressive one. It was not my intention to turn Subnautica into an action or horror game.
  • TotallyLemonTotallyLemon Atlanta Georgia Join Date: 2015-05-22 Member: 204764Members
    edited June 2015
    Lightdevil wrote: »
    Why can i not post a comment anymore.. EDIT: Apparently I can only do so when I dont quote you? So @TotallyLemon I just thought your idea of giving the player a benefit for not killing all the predators they can find was a good idea but not easy to implement. So i thought of another way to atleast stop players from slaughtering every fish they see, which i think is paramount to making predators useful. Making predators more dangerous in a way that they do not turn into hyper aggressive beasts, but just increasing their damage output, while implementing a mechanic to help the player get away so the game does not get harder seemed like a good way to do so. In fact, i believe this would support a more defensive more careful playstyle, instead of an aggressive one. It was not my intention to turn Subnautica into an action or horror game.
    My issue is that aggressive creatures always attack simply due to proximity. I can understand the Stalkers, since players might be near scrap metal they are collecting, but it feels wrong that so many creatures are ultra-territorial. Of course, some creatures like the parasitic bleeders are going to have a vicious disposition.

    But hey, it could just be the alien ecology; however, it would be interesting to see more complex emotion if damage output was increased. The issues with a damage increase is the increased threat to the player. Humans under threat tend to act more violently... if predators are more dangerous, players will perceive this and will act more hostile towards them. Slaughter then would be a preemptive action and not so much a whim of the player.
  • LightdevilLightdevil Austria Join Date: 2015-06-10 Member: 205381Members, Subnautica Playtester
    edited June 2015
    Lightdevil wrote: »
    Why can i not post a comment anymore.. EDIT: Apparently I can only do so when I dont quote you? So @TotallyLemon I just thought your idea of giving the player a benefit for not killing all the predators they can find was a good idea but not easy to implement. So i thought of another way to atleast stop players from slaughtering every fish they see, which i think is paramount to making predators useful. Making predators more dangerous in a way that they do not turn into hyper aggressive beasts, but just increasing their damage output, while implementing a mechanic to help the player get away so the game does not get harder seemed like a good way to do so. In fact, i believe this would support a more defensive more careful playstyle, instead of an aggressive one. It was not my intention to turn Subnautica into an action or horror game.
    My issue is that aggressive creatures always attack simply due to proximity. I can understand the Stalkers, since players might be near scrap metal they are collecting, but it feels wrong that so many creatures are ultra-territorial. Of course, some creatures like the parasitic bleeders are going to have a vicious disposition.

    But hey, it could just be the alien ecology; however, it would be interesting to see more complex emotion if damage output was increased. The issues with a damage increase is the increased threat to the player. Humans under threat tend to act more violently... if predators are more dangerous, players will perceive this and will act more hostile towards them. Slaughter then would be a preemptive action and not so much a whim of the player.

    I dont think thats how it would be.. maybe some humans would try to slaughter preemptively.. Smart humans would play smart, careful, and defensive, respecting the hostile creatures of the ocean.

    EDIT: How about an aggro system like in Gothic (if anybody knows that game) where creatures start to hiss or make aggressive noises in order to warn you before they attack, slowly back off to evade a fight.
  • Captain_PyroCaptain_Pyro Germany Join Date: 2015-05-31 Member: 205116Members
    edited June 2015
    Lightdevil wrote: »
    EDIT: How about an aggro system like in Gothic (if anybody knows that game) where creatures start to hiss or make aggressive noises in order to warn you before they attack, slowly back off to evade a fight.
    I know it, i love it and i think it's a pretty smart design choice. And even tho i'm not 100% about realism, this is not what believable predators would behave like. Crashers do it, but they are listed as defensive enemies.

    I think predators should have triggers.
    I wrote somewhere before that i think Stalkers should attack if they are attacked themselves, you come way too close to them or something in a vertain area bleeds. Meaning bleeders can hurt you in more than one way, heat blading fish while stalkers are around is probably a bad idea and hurting another stalker is probably the worst idea.

    maybe bonesharks react to noises: Seamoth bumps and engine sounds, the seaglide, stasis rifle, limestone picking...
  • BrieyaBrieya Las Vegas, NV Join Date: 2015-06-12 Member: 205419Members
    I found out by pure chance the best way to get away from the Reaper is to burrow or hide in the coral tubes as you make your way through his zone.
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