Are two upgrade chambers enough? [tactic]

[AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
I was wondering that for a while now. I see more and more comms that refuse to drop a 3rd upgrade chamber (UC) until they run out of stuff they can place with two hives. If I ask why, they say it costs a lot of money that is used better on other stuff and 2/3 UCs are enough of a boost. The 3rd UC is almost meaningless.

Is that right? I thought every UC gives about 33% of the full potencial. Is that still the case, cause if it is still like this I would really feel cheated if I have to upgrade a fade with 2 and 2 UCs and get 66% less boost for the same pres. The 3rd UC is expensive, but is the res really better invested in other places? I mean those comms even go shade first and drop only two UCs...that makes no sense in my book.

What do you think, enlight me! Is that a valid tactic and what would you use the saved res on, a fast 2nd hive? o.O
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Comments

  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    X -> Eject Commander.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Some use it to get a second hive quicker, when you need one strategically. I don't think it makes much of a difference as res tends to accumulate for aliens rather quickly, anyway.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    As long as they get it by mid game sometime.
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Having 2 is just fine... before you get your third! ;)
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    If we are really really really low on res, like, constantly getting pressured on RTs, then I might leave us with 2 upgrades and save the rest for bilebomb or second hive depending on situation.
    In case of shade first, I might leave 1 veil for some time, because one veil still grants you special powers. But then, when resflow is good, always upgrade to full, because silence is boss.

    In all the other cases, it always three chambers as soon as we have res (unless we agreed to stick to some special tactics, that doesn't involves upgrades at all in favor of other fun things).
  • KungFuJVKungFuJV Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15167Members
    Always 3 all the time...
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    edited May 2014
    By upgrade chamber I assume you mean techpoint (tp for short)

    2 hives usually give most of the important upgrades, but it's true that sometimes comms refuse to get 3rd tp when other things are not as important.


    and it turns out upgrade chamber means shells, veils, and spurs. Disregard this.
  • KungFuJVKungFuJV Join Date: 2003-04-03 Member: 15167Members
    No he means the spurs/shells/veils.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    coolitic wrote: »
    By upgrade chamber I assume you mean techpoint (tp for short)

    2 hives usually give most of the important upgrades, but it's true that sometimes comms refuse to get 3rd tp when other things are not as important.
    OH MY GOD COOLITIC

    Why the hell are you here if you dont even play the sodding game
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    coolitic wrote: »
    By upgrade chamber I assume you mean techpoint (tp for short)

    2 hives usually give most of the important upgrades, but it's true that sometimes comms refuse to get 3rd tp when other things are not as important.

    By upgrade chambers he means shells, veils and spurs.
  • 2cough2cough Rocky Mountain High Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183952Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    coolitic wrote: »
    By upgrade chamber I assume you mean techpoint (tp for short)

    2 hives usually give most of the important upgrades, but it's true that sometimes comms refuse to get 3rd tp when other things are not as important.
    OH MY GOD COOLITIC

    Why the hell are you here if you dont even play the sodding game

    LOL, while I lubb coolitic for his thick skin, persistence, and sometimes entertaining posts, I do think sometimes he spends more time on the forums than in game. Hehehe <3 for @coolitic ;)
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members
    ... Anyone who thinks that 2 is enough and starts working on the other types needs to consider their previous choices. This stems from 3 main streams of logic.

    1st
    If one goes shift first its because you view shift to be the best hive (perhaps only for this round) as such then youv established that celerity>cara and as each shell is 33% of max improvement then choosing anything over 33% more celerity is sub optimal.

    2nd
    Player Res! While 20 t-res is 20 t-res it is not the case for players as a skulk who cares... but when you look at the opposite side of the spectrum (onos) it becomes clear. If you go onos odds are your doing it asap to increase effectiveness, having 3spurs vs 2 spurs and 1 shell saves you 8 res and still gives you access to all upgrades (assuming you have 8 res for shell at that time)

    3rd
    Lack of linearity... While each upgrade does count for 33% of total potential max this does not mean that they are equal. I would contend that as you reach the higher end of the spectrum you begin to push opponent limits. Speed everyone has a max tracking speed as you approach it its going to get significantly harder to track. Health you never know when its their last bullet if your investing in being a spunge you should maximize that.


    conclusion... 2 upgrades->hive is fine... but the 3rd upgrade should be the same as the first 2, if your wishing you had cara at this point maybe you chose the wrong hive...

    ****Exception (because there always is one) **** Are you about to lose your new hive? well maybe you should grab an upgrade from it now before it dies...
  • It's Super Effective!It's Super Effective! Join Date: 2012-08-28 Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    For me, shade is really the only one where the benefit of 1 veil is strongest, and the benefits diminishes beyond that. (Reduced Cloak camo delay, sound) Just requires different game play to make up for early game sneaky.

    But For Shells and Spurs, pretty much always go 3

    If you absolutely need (as in you will lose without it) that res on something like biomass/hive/gorge upgrade.

    A example would be the marines have too many turrets or phasegates, and you need to get Bile Bomb up to deal with that, that last spur's priority would drop for me too.
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    I thought the consensus was 2-3 veils asap to make use of shade? Guess depends on the competence of the players (doesn't everything?).
  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    edited May 2014
    going shift first, i often have 0 (but shift hive for echo) or 2 spurs for a while.
    right away: why not 1 spur? because there is overhead (selection/evolution time and pres cost).
    so yea, ofc it makes sense to have 3 spurs in the end and while i agree that the 3rd should be done before placing any shells or veils (maybe except a single veil for camo), i don't think the 3rd spur is as important as some people claim it to be: for skulk celerity or leap adrenaline it is nice, yes.
    but for higher lifeforms which you'll want to keep alive (ignoring onos, because by the time those are up, 3rd spur should be as well), people tend to pick adrenaline. and for adrenaline, the benefit seems a bit diminishing for lerk, gorge and fade because there is only so much time they'll remain in an engagement.
    that said, i can relate if people disagree with my view here; i merely want to point out that it's not a no-go and depends on the given circumstances: while saving up 60 tres for a single purpose, chances are that other needs emerge during that time.
  • MoFoMoFo Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188047Members
    For me, shade is really the only one where the benefit of 1 veil is strongest, and the benefits diminishes beyond that. (Reduced Cloak camo delay, sound) Just requires different game play to make up for early game sneaky.

    But For Shells and Spurs, pretty much always go 3

    I dunno I find it to be the exact opposite for me..

    1 Veil does pretty much nothing... You are spotted super easily while cloaked, and you still make more than enough noise while running. 3 Veils asap is incredibly important primarily because it renders Skulks completely silent. (by far the most useful upgrade in the game imo) Plus the range of aura on 1 or 2 veils is ridiculously small.

    For Spurs and Shells you get more of a boost with just one, and it seems the difference between 2 and 3 is very minimal.





  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    KungFuJV wrote: »
    No he means the spurs/shells/veils.

    Oh, well then I retract my post.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    edited May 2014
    2cough wrote: »
    coolitic wrote: »
    By upgrade chamber I assume you mean techpoint (tp for short)

    2 hives usually give most of the important upgrades, but it's true that sometimes comms refuse to get 3rd tp when other things are not as important.
    OH MY GOD COOLITIC

    Why the hell are you here if you dont even play the sodding game

    LOL, while I lubb coolitic for his thick skin, persistence, and sometimes entertaining posts, I do think sometimes he spends more time on the forums than in game. Hehehe <3 for @coolitic ;)

    I would be spending more time in-game but dell is being cumbersome with getting me my replacement gpu, and we all know NS2 can't be played on igp (unless it's at 360x360)
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    coolitic wrote: »
    2cough wrote: »
    coolitic wrote: »
    By upgrade chamber I assume you mean techpoint (tp for short)

    2 hives usually give most of the important upgrades, but it's true that sometimes comms refuse to get 3rd tp when other things are not as important.
    OH MY GOD COOLITIC

    Why the hell are you here if you dont even play the sodding game

    LOL, while I lubb coolitic for his thick skin, persistence, and sometimes entertaining posts, I do think sometimes he spends more time on the forums than in game. Hehehe <3 for @coolitic ;)

    I would be spending more time in-game but dell is being cumbersome with getting me my replacement gpu, and we all know NS2 can't be played on igp (unless it's at 360x360)

    Depends on igp. I played on intel 4600 with a 4770k and it was actually very playable. 1080p.
  • RejZoRRejZoR Slovenia Join Date: 2013-09-24 Member: 188450Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I don't understand why so few comms embrace Shade first. Just because people don't know how to use it? Of course they don't. In normal games you rarely ever even have a chance to use it. Games often end even before aliens get Shade as the 3rd hive. And even when they do, marines usually have enough res as well to spam scans and they have jetpacks and stronger weapons that sort of negate the shade suprise attacks. But in first minutes, it can be really frustrating for marines because they can't know where attack will come from and because they have just basic armor, it's also much more lethal.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Shade first is arguably the most powerful start.

    If you get ALL veils early, the silent skulks can just run around the map and always get the drop on marines, even if not ambushing (aliens can hear marines running, marines cant hear skulks)

    Moving into mid/late, game aura lets higher lifeforms maximize their efficiency by picking off the near dead marines and avoiding traps like a marine standing around a corner with a shotgun.

    Also, Halicinations are ridiculous.

    But yeah, in order to actualy use Shade well, you need all three veils ASAP. Shell/Spur can be delayed somewhat since they still give decent buffs, but should still be a high-ish priority.
  • RejZoRRejZoR Slovenia Join Date: 2013-09-24 Member: 188450Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I can work with one veil already. The ability to cloak means you can basically drop on marines from pretty much anywhere, even if the spot would otherwise make you visible without the cloaking. Being silent is just an extra bonus, so you can ambush them even more safely and then rape them from behind, with max speed without worrying for them to hear you. But yeah, with 3 veils, aliens are a devastating force and it's really a shame comms don't use shade hive first more often. I really hate speed upgrades if you have to crawl around to be silent. Pointless. And only time energy regen is needed is when gorges get bile bomb, so they can utilize it 100%. Regeneration, while my favorite so i don't have to fallback to base and can engage in combat with shorter cooldowns, it's not really essential with fast creatures and carapace really only comes into play later in the game for fades and onos. So really, it should be shade -> shift -> crag hives evolution order. Well, at least for my play style.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    RejZoR wrote: »
    I don't understand why so few comms embrace Shade first. Just because people don't know how to use it? Of course they don't. In normal games you rarely ever even have a chance to use it. Games often end even before aliens get Shade as the 3rd hive. And even when they do, marines usually have enough res as well to spam scans and they have jetpacks and stronger weapons that sort of negate the shade suprise attacks. But in first minutes, it can be really frustrating for marines because they can't know where attack will come from and because they have just basic armor, it's also much more lethal.

    I've seen a lot more shade first since the hallucination update
  • RejZoRRejZoR Slovenia Join Date: 2013-09-24 Member: 188450Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I haven't. I've seen it like a year ago when i started playing NS2, but not lately, at least not in the last few months.
  • meatmachinemeatmachine South England Join Date: 2013-01-06 Member: 177858Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    We love it over at YO, especially when the comm is using hallucinations (seriously kinda OP right now, you get a distraction AND a meatshield, in fact I think I need to make a thread about it actually HMM)

    In response to OP - @maD_maX_‌ speak the truth.

    2 Ups should be a temporary thing, its completely acceptable to delay the 3rd in order to get biomass / a crag / 2nd hive or something, but you sure as shit are going to need that 3rd one up before you start even thinking about 2nd hive upgrades.

    Benefits of up #3 per hive -

    Spurs - Increased distance-closing ability for skulks, more bile / heals from gorges, faster distance closing and disengagement for fades (you ARE going celerity fade, right?). 3 spurs is good.

    Veils - Usable aura range, oh yeah and your aliens are completely silent. You can engage marines in the most obvious fashion without them having any idea. You can run around the map at full speed nibbling RTs and they wont know where you are until the next one starts flashing red on their HUD. Get 3 veils.

    Shell - Remember all those times you left an engagement with fade sporting a whopping 7hp? One less shell and you would be long dead. Get 3 shells.


    IMO spurs are the lowest return for #3 but that does not in any way imply you should not make it a priority before your 2nd hive starts chuggin'
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    If you play against trained players, even three veils and no movement isn't enough to cloak you. I already chose spots that should benefit the camo and they still figure it out in a heartbeat. Same goes for the sound, two veils are the same as zero veils if you move around. I bet some play so loud that they will be deaf soon. And aura 1 is like what, 3-5m range? It helps a bit, but it doesn't really convince me to be handy.

    The only thing I can understand - if it has to be one UC - is regen 1. One shell early on gives you at least regeneration, but I would naturally prefer three shells or better no shells at all. Cara doesn't help against good players, they still kill you very fast and since they are masters in close combat teeth avoidance, crag hives give me the feeling that they are faster than a skulk in melee. And that is deadly.

    And the comms I'm talking about are not delaying it for gorge upgrades etc. They build two spurs and then two shells. Even built a 3rd hive and veils before a 3rd spur was even in discussion. I thought there might be some genious comp level time and res efficient tactic behind it that I don't see. But it seems to be the assumption that a 3rd UC is not necessary and on top of that expansive.
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    And I always use celerity fades. So 2 spurs make me paranoid, because I die faster the slower I am ;)
  • It's Super Effective!It's Super Effective! Join Date: 2012-08-28 Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    edited May 2014
    james888 wrote: »
    Depends on igp. I played on intel 4600 with a 4770k and it was actually very playable. 1080p.

    I'm using 2630qm, so it doesn't work lol

    Also, shade starts are my favorites, but there are 2 reasons khamms dont do it:

    1) Is a rookie khamm

    2) Not all players can effectively use a shade start, and if a good portion of your team can't make enough use of it, there is no point in doing it. (mostly pubs, but sometimes comp players are better with other hives too)
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