NS2 Competitive Mod - Balance Mod Part II

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Comments

  • CyberKunCyberKun Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Like, I don't get it.

    What is stopping this mod to being official and being used for pub play? I've seen Hughes and a few others play on Gibs server to look at the mod and considering the comp community is accepting this mod in mass, what is the issue with this being official? I don't see any changes that will ruin pub play.

    Also, "Changing the game changes the game." "Balance is hard." "Think about what you are doing." Soul_Rider, that might be one of the most obvious things stated.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2014
    I'd just like to share a question that pop into my head:

    Would it beneficial for the competitive mod to aim to be balanced for smaller games (5v5, or even 4v4)? Certain mechanisms (such as damage scaling) could be added to allow balance to scale into higher play counts as well.

    From my understanding, a lot of online FPS/MOBA games choose 5v5 as their standard size to make them accessible.

    I know this will be quite a challenge, but it could possibly revitalize the pub scene. There are currently a lot of empty servers, which are visited by two to four players, for just a few minutes, then leave to queue up in one of the 12v12 server, because they do not have the time to wait for the chance of others joining.

    PS. I have brainstormed a few ideas to improve Fade Vortex here: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/134684/fade-vortex-teleport#latest
    Would anyone interested in the topic take a look?
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Let me re-phrase.

    What I was getting at was that making balance changes morphs very quickly into gameplay changes, especially in a complicated game like NS2. Once you start, the process can very quickly end up at a great place for the mod and it's players, but can turn out to be significantly different from the base game, thus inhibiting the transfer of public to comp players.

    @CyberKun‌ - You really think UWE are going to make time to implement the balance mod? With the publicised stance that they will only make small updates to the game to avoid bugs creeping in, how would they get this mod in there?

    It's really up to the mod and competitive communities to keep this game going as long as it can. Modders to generate new player interest, maybe from players not initially into the main game, and comp players to keep NS2 in the news and spreading the word of the main game. If Comp play ends up differing too much from Pub play, it will become confusing to new players.
  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising California Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited April 2014
    I have scrimmed with this mod a lot recently and have enjoyed it. I wanted to thank those involved.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    edited April 2014
    I feel like the compmod is not just about balance for comp play, it's about improving the game as a whole. So I think it's a great thing that modders/veteran players are dedicating themselves to further refine NS2 now that UWE has shifted it's focus to Subnautica. Imo, the compmod will more likely lengthen NS2's shelf life rather than shorten it. If it turns out to be quite the hit among comp players, I wouldn't be surprised to see more and more pub servers adopting the compmod as well.

    Sure, new players might get confused initially, but new players get confused initially anyway. They'll still have the choice to play vanilla only. And those who are scared off to enter the comp scene because of some changes wouldn't last long anyway even if the nsl was still running vanilla. :)


  • GibsGibs Join Date: 2013-09-25 Member: 188455Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Diamond, Subnautica Playtester
    edited April 2014
    As Cyber stated I have been running the mod on my public server, and so far things seem to be working out very well. If anybody who has been playing on my server has any feedback related to the mod, please do not hesitate to post it here. Just keep in mind that your feedback will be relating to how the mod plays out in pubs, so be sure to specify that.
  • CyberKunCyberKun Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I've been watching a few games and I just want to say.

    I'm really happy Leap rush is viable again.
  • Warforce17Warforce17 Join Date: 2013-09-12 Member: 188154Members
    edited April 2014
    I have just discovered this thread since I have been absent from the forums for some time but it has been a interesting thread so far. Since I play in the lower divison (3), I will keep an eye on the metabolize ability which is unfamiliar to me because I have never played Ns1.

    To add to some statements made some pages before, I believe that next to tactics also aim can be significantly improved with consistent training. I admit for some it might come more natural but I have myself practiced 1 vs. 1 (thanks to herakles here btw) with some people over an extended amount of time and I have noticed that my aim has improved noticeably since then. (It dropped again after I did not practice regulary because of university stress)

    I personally believe that besides aim lower division teams, don´t perform as well as higher division teams is because they cannot adapt accordingly to situations which are unfamiliar to them. However, this might only be my own foolish belief but I like to see this changes as challenges.

    But in the end, I agree that it is necessary to take lower divisions into account when talking about balance. I can understand that especially in division 4 not all people have the time to commit themselves to the game as much as they might like to and making changes who "might" lead to similiar results in every game (I am talking about 2:2 all alien wins), could lead to boring lower divison games.

    I thank you for your timing reading this response from a player who only recently has joined the ensl and is excited in which way it evolves.

    Greetings,

    [HBZ] Warforce17


    P.S.
    I just felt like writing in this polite way and sorry for any mistakes (grammatical and such) as I dont have time to check right now.
  • CyberKunCyberKun Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Suggestion. Considering this isn't globally implemented, it would be nice if there was a watermark in the spec interface when watching. Something small and out of the way. Version as well if one wants to get fancy.
  • SupaFredSupaFred Join Date: 2013-03-03 Member: 183652Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    edited April 2014
    I've just configured and started [SWE] The Thirsty Onos # CompMod. It is located in Stockholm, Sweden. I have tried to configure it like the servers used for competitive play but since I'm a pubber I'm not sure I've gotten everything right. It has 18 player slots and 33 % friendly fire. Mods:
    CompMod
    NS2+
    Shine Admin
    Shine NS2Stats
    Pregame Plus
    Player names on minimap
    Mineshaft fix
    Cross spawns
    No first person spectate
    Jambi and Kodiak

    Have I forgotten anything? The idea is to give the more experienced pub players a chance to try the game the way the pros play it.
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Looks good to me. Make sure to post any observations you feel might be noteworthy. :D
  • SupaFredSupaFred Join Date: 2013-03-03 Member: 183652Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Can't login to the server after the 265 update. Known problem?
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Mod is broken on 265 at the moment, Dragon will be updating it soon.
  • SupaFredSupaFred Join Date: 2013-03-03 Member: 183652Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    That was quick! I'll get the server back up. Thanks.
  • twilitebluetwiliteblue bug stalker Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13116Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited May 2014
    Would it be too much to ask for an "Improved Blink" upgrade that allows Blink to propel in multiple directions like (a slower version of) Shadow Step?

    Since Vortex and SS were both taken out, Fade movement seems rather lackluster. If rapid backward and side-sliding floating Fades look ridiculous, they can simply be limited to be used in half-second bursts.
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Fade movement seems really great to me personally.. you should probably experiment more with the freedom that metabolize gives you.

    Any burst of instantaneous movement was a big factor of how gimmicky the old movement was. I wouldn't want any form of it back personally.
  • CyberKunCyberKun Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited May 2014
    This is a bit of a wild idea, and admittedly a bit on the crazy side.

    I know that Balance Mod V3 is being worked on, and I thought of a possible idea for the Flamethrower to make it viable for 6v6 play.

    Right clicking will launch a ball of Oil at the cost of ~22 ammo out of the 50. Basically looks like the Gorge Bile Bomb. Once it lands on the ground, the area is coated with Oil. The Oil will last for like 20 seconds. If the Oil is lite on fire at all, it will deal ~100 normal damage over ~.4 seconds in an area as the area is lite in flames. Maybe for a counter have Gorge heal spray remove the Oil.

    The general idea for this is to enable it to be a bit of a smarter way for Flamethrowers to be an area denial. The Flamethrower can be used to plant aggressive temporary traps. This will force the Aliens to play around the area, bait the trap, or just attack the Flamethrower. The high cost means the thing can not just be spammed and normal use of the weapon will give a much higher ammo efficiency and overall DPS.

    *Edit*

    For comparison, the current idea on the ENSL forums is to make a secondary and reduce the damage/clip/stuff to make it balanced. This is also a possible way, but my suggestion is more for a primary thing.
  • SpaSpa Join Date: 2013-05-20 Member: 185301Members

    CyberKun wrote: »
    This is a bit of a wild idea, and admittedly a bit on the crazy side.

    I know that Balance Mod V3 is being worked on, and I thought of a possible idea for the Flamethrower to make it viable for 6v6 play.

    Right clicking will launch a ball of Oil at the cost of ~22 ammo out of the 50. Basically looks like the Gorge Bile Bomb. Once it lands on the ground, the area is coated with Oil. The Oil will last for like 20 seconds. If the Oil is lite on fire at all, it will deal ~100 normal damage over ~.4 seconds in an area as the area is lite in flames. Maybe for a counter have Gorge heal spray remove the Oil.

    The general idea for this is to enable it to be a bit of a smarter way for Flamethrowers to be an area denial. The Flamethrower can be used to plant aggressive temporary traps. This will force the Aliens to play around the area, bait the trap, or just attack the Flamethrower. The high cost means the thing can not just be spammed and normal use of the weapon will give a much higher ammo efficiency and overall DPS.

    *Edit*

    For comparison, the current idea on the ENSL forums is to make a secondary and reduce the damage/clip/stuff to make it balanced. This is also a possible way, but my suggestion is more for a primary thing.

    I can just see dead marines everywhere ... it'll be like throwing a Molotov in CSGO and team killing half of your teammates.

    Cool idea... but if the players can't figure out gorge tunnel entrances and exits this just might blow their minds.
  • dusterduster michigan, US Join Date: 2014-01-19 Member: 193329Members
    edited June 2014
    I can't find the hmg stats in the notes, which is odd becuase I could've sworn I saw them earlier.

    to confirm, it's 20 pres cost, 12% spread, 100 round magazine(or drum, w/e), 5 second reload?

    Need tres (research) cost, equip animation time, and movement speed, as well as confirmation on the fire rate to get some comparisons going.

    If this is at least somewhat accurate, I feel it would need either a slight boost or a pres cost reduction to 15 or something, but I havn't had the change to run any numbers on it.

    Cats probably won't help the reload be practical but it would make the 12% spread less horrid (for closing distance to the lifeforms) so there might be strategies that make it viable in it's current state(from what I can see) but I'd bet after doing some numbers it'll need a minor buff.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/16niWkYVm7KfDgtwDyWQDQgkvMejr0VE-KxD7bNA95pk/edit?pli=1
    Advanced armory unlocks HMG (ice's model) [20 pres]
    HMG - Slightly larger spread than LMG, 12 base damage per shot, 100 bullet magazine, 5 second reload, slightly heavier than SG, light damage to structures (same fire rate as LMG)

    It's right there in the notes.^^


  • dusterduster michigan, US Join Date: 2014-01-19 Member: 193329Members
    edited June 2014
    *I posted a picture here earlier with some dps stats on the weapons but I messed up the cumulative damage, i'll repost it after some corrections.
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