X-Post from Modding: Imminent Update to Break Certain Mods

HughHugh CameramanSan Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
Got an NS2 mod on the Steam Workshop? An imminent NS2 update may cause it to break, but fear not. Fixes have been provided in advance! Go here for an explanation from @SamusDroid, who has taken on the lead technical role in this upcoming update: http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/134716/important-imminent-update-to-break-certain-mods-fix-included#latest
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Comments

  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising California Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Any fixes for mineshaft or seeing names in the server browser? You know... stuff that should have been hot patched in a day if not 1 week tops.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Oh my, 265 is on the way!
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    RisingSun wrote: »
    hot patched

    Rapid patching (or 'hot fixing') of specific high profile issues such as the failure of a map have a significantly detrimental effect on the likelihood that Unknown Worlds can continue to support Natural Selection 2 in the long term. This effect is caused by their propensity to severely damage future updates, inherent high risk of failure, and most importantly extremely high opportunity cost. In fact, they are so damaging that the threshold for performing one is now set exceedingly high. While it is certainly frustrating to all concerned to have to live with an issue for an extended period, the best solution is for Unknown Worlds to improve the quality of product releases.
    xen32 wrote: »
    Oh my, 265 is on the way!

    Yes, yes it is!
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members
    edited April 2014
    ^I can see that post getting a couple of negative posts.

    But hey, new patch soon so hurrah!!
  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising California Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited April 2014
    Hugh wrote: »
    RisingSun wrote: »
    hot patched
    Words
    Thank for the wordy non-answer. Basically you said this: We don't care about NS2 anymore and have moved on to other projects. Community members are left to take up the slack and get patches out, but community members can't fix the major breaks and are left patching things no one cares about like textures.
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    RisingSun wrote: »
    ...

    I'm honestly not sure how to engage productively with your post, @RisingSun. The response I gave is a factual explanation of why 'hot-fixes' don't happen, and while I would be happy to discuss that explanation in more detail, it appears to me that you would prefer I didn't discuss the topic at all. I understand your desire for rapid updates that address small issues, but am simply trying to explain why such updates would, in the long term, result in Unknown Worlds being unable to offer Natural Selection 2 any updates at all.

    If people do have questions for me about NS2 development, and 265 (not the features, obviously that's a secret until Friday! But the development process, the funding model, etc), I would be happy to answer. It is not often the case that such a mature game could receive the kind of update Natural Selection 2 is about to receive so long after release, and the topic of 265's execution is very interesting from a business and production perspective.

    I'll poke my head back into this thread in the morning PST!
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members
    edited April 2014
    Win.

    Now let's hold hands n be nice mmmmk. :x
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    So are we never going to get mineshaft back? Lost to the internet ether, it appears :(
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    edited April 2014
    Hugh wrote: »
    RisingSun wrote: »
    hot patched

    Rapid patching (or 'hot fixing') of specific high profile issues such as the failure of a map have a significantly detrimental effect on the likelihood that Unknown Worlds can continue to support Natural Selection 2 in the long term. This effect is caused by their propensity to severely damage future updates, inherent high risk of failure, and most importantly extremely high opportunity cost. In fact, they are so damaging that the threshold for performing one is now set exceedingly high. While it is certainly frustrating to all concerned to have to live with an issue for an extended period, the best solution is for Unknown Worlds to improve the quality of product releases.

    You know, Hugh, you're a really cool guy. I like you. But this paragraph does nothing but sounding pretentious. And sometimes, it's better to not feed the trolls; even though it's arguably not trolling anymore after such a long time.

    But we are not here to discuss that.

    Let's just celebrate the new patch in advance, ok?
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2014
    Biweekly updates? Huh?
    Rapid patching (or 'hot fixing') of specific high profile issues such as the failure of a map have a significantly detrimental effect on the likelihood that Unknown Worlds can continue to support Natural Selection 2 in the long term. This effect is caused by their propensity to severely damage future updates, inherent high risk of failure, and most importantly extremely high opportunity cost. In fact, they are so damaging that the threshold for performing one is now set exceedingly high. While it is certainly frustrating to all concerned to have to live with an issue for an extended period, the best solution is for Unknown Worlds to improve the quality of product releases.

    King of word soup strikes again.
  • RegnarebRegnareb Join Date: 2007-08-26 Member: 62008Members, NS2 Playtester
    So are we never going to get mineshaft back? Lost to the internet ether, it appears :(
    Mineshaft has never been lost.
  • _INTER__INTER_ Join Date: 2009-08-08 Member: 68392Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Mineshaft has never been lost.
    Modders do a great job without a doubt, but these days costum maps or unofficially fixed maps don't get a lot of attention.
    So as long as Mineshaft is not fixed by UWE, it is lost. Right now it has been taken from map cycle or people skip it right from the start.
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    What makes everybody think that next patch wont have a fixed mineshaft?
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    I have a few questions about NS2's development since it seems that it could get really fast to the point where it becomes unreasonable to update a 'mature' game and you are willing to answer:

    -What exactly does development mean and when will it be finished?

    -As you say, ns2 is a mature game, can we expect the game to finalize in a state where UWE fixes all bugs and releases something like an enhanced version/gold version of the game or will the game not recive any updates after a certain point and we will be stuck with band-aids and several bugs we have to live with?

    -What is the company's policy about the final goal for NS2?


    P.S.: An advise to fix mods in advance is great! I bet MvM will profit a lot from it. The community would have loved that right from the beginning, though. We could still have a free 'working' combat mod that way. Imagine what NS2's community content would had been and how many extra sales would it had created with good player advertisement...
  • MoFoMoFo Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188047Members
    Hugh wrote: »

    Rapid patching (or 'hot fixing') of specific high profile issues such as the failure of a map have a significantly detrimental effect on the likelihood that Unknown Worlds can continue to support Natural Selection 2 in the long term. This effect is caused by their propensity to severely damage future updates, inherent high risk of failure, and most importantly extremely high opportunity cost. In fact, they are so damaging that the threshold for performing one is now set exceedingly high. While it is certainly frustrating to all concerned to have to live with an issue for an extended period, the best solution is for Unknown Worlds to improve the quality of product releases.

    Not quite sure how a hot fix could "severely damage future updates" - especially something like fixing Mineshaft (which you'd think would only take 1 guy like 5 minutes to fix but w/e)

    At any rate I guess the question to ask now is... will build 256 include the things that should have been fixed a long time ago? Mainly the names not showing in the browser, and Mineshaft.

    This should be something you can either confirm or deny as it's not a "feature" in any way.


    Being unable to see who is in a server before joining is EXTREMELY annoying, and as others have pointed out Mineshaft may as well currently be non-existent. In fact I know of only one server in my ping range that runs the Mineshaft fix. (all the others have it removed from the rotation)

  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    I heared that there is not a single 32bit user in the PT-team, so it seems to be more likely that bugs can be overseen. Is that just a coincidence? Was wondering that for a while now...
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    I heared that there is not a single 32bit user in the PT-team, so it seems to be more likely that bugs can be overseen. Is that just a coincidence? Was wondering that for a while now...

    This is false. We have a PT called Carnage from Poland who runs 32bit Windows Vista - he keeps us in check with the 32bit limit.

  • b1.seb1.se Stockholm, Sweden Join Date: 2012-09-17 Member: 159734Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Great to see this being done for modders! Considering I got a "not possible" when we had a teamspeak meeting with hugh over a year ago(?) and I mentioned this would help out a big deal to keep peoples mods from breaking every patch. *Hoping for server/player info fix aswell*
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    Well, then Ironhorse's information might had been outdated. Good to know that there is one.
  • RegnarebRegnareb Join Date: 2007-08-26 Member: 62008Members, NS2 Playtester
    _INTER_ wrote: »
    Mineshaft has never been lost.
    Modders do a great job without a doubt, but these days costum maps or unofficially fixed maps don't get a lot of attention.
    So as long as Mineshaft is not fixed by UWE, it is lost. Right now it has been taken from map cycle or people skip it right from the start.
    Well, if you play in non-administered servers, no matter what you will not have an optimal NS2 experience no matter what.
    And Modders are usually Uwe devs or SamusDroid, so...
  • craZyfxcraZyfx Austria Join Date: 2014-01-20 Member: 193350Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Hugh wrote: »
    If people do have questions for me about NS2 development, and 265 (not the features, obviously that's a secret until Friday!

    Friday? I thought you said the release is on May 1st ;)
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2014
    RisingSun wrote: »
    Hugh wrote: »
    RisingSun wrote: »
    hot patched
    Words
    Thank for the wordy non-answer. Basically you said this: We don't care about NS2 anymore and have moved on to other projects. Community members are left to take up the slack and get patches out, but community members can't fix the major breaks and are left patching things no one cares about like textures.
    He doesn't need to say it anyway.

    It's been obvious for the longest time that ns2 has been left to modders to fix
    Squishpoke wrote: »
    I'ma help you guys out with the reading comprehension:

    1) UWE wants to focus on longer patch (quality) patch periods instead of bi-weekly (rushed) patches that are guaranteed to require hotfixes.

    2) Bi-weekly (rushed) patches and their mandatory hotfixes are stressful to UWE (and UWE's work hours) and will eventually burn out future development.

    3) The current "hotfixes" requested by the community on the current build are simply a victim of UWE's change of focus between the two patching methods.

    Let me help you with some comprehension

    Read: We are busy making an aquarium simulator. ns2 is no longer able to be supported, as much as we would like to pretend we are doing so via modders.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    Obraxis wrote: »
    Most of you guys know I know the ins and outs of Playtesting and how patches are made and delivered, being PT Lead of NS2 for years and through NS2's release. Hugh's explanation as to why we can't just 'hotfix' things is correct - I think he just put it in a way which was a bit more confusing to some.

    Just to clarify, we are double, and triple checking Mineshaft (and all maps). We have been holding DOUBLE playtests for the last few weeks - almost like we were before NS2 got released. There are reasons for this, which hopefully you will all get to see VERY soon on May 1st. I can't promise 265 will be bug-free, (who can right?) but as of right now it is looking very solid.

    Great to see that Mineshaft is being worked on! Thanks for the hard work.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    elodea wrote: »
    RisingSun wrote: »
    Hugh wrote: »
    RisingSun wrote: »
    hot patched
    Words
    Thank for the wordy non-answer. Basically you said this: We don't care about NS2 anymore and have moved on to other projects. Community members are left to take up the slack and get patches out, but community members can't fix the major breaks and are left patching things no one cares about like textures.
    He doesn't need to say it anyway.

    It's been obvious for the longest time that ns2 has been left to modders to fix
    Squishpoke wrote: »
    I'ma help you guys out with the reading comprehension:

    1) UWE wants to focus on longer patch (quality) patch periods instead of bi-weekly (rushed) patches that are guaranteed to require hotfixes.

    2) Bi-weekly (rushed) patches and their mandatory hotfixes are stressful to UWE (and UWE's work hours) and will eventually burn out future development.

    3) The current "hotfixes" requested by the community on the current build are simply a victim of UWE's change of focus between the two patching methods.

    Let me help you with some comprehension

    Read: We are busy making an aquarium simulator. ns2 is no longer able to be supported, as much as we would like to pretend we are doing so via modders.

    Err... and what do you expect them to do? Just carry on working on NS2 non-stop? World doesn't work that way, bud.

    Here's hoping for a successful SN, and then transition back to NS, with NS3 including underwater environments by applying lessons learned with SN development. Swimming skulks wall-jumping off coral reefs? Exos floating through an underwater mineshaft? Yes please!
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    elodea wrote: »
    RisingSun wrote: »
    Hugh wrote: »
    RisingSun wrote: »
    hot patched
    Words
    Thank for the wordy non-answer. Basically you said this: We don't care about NS2 anymore and have moved on to other projects. Community members are left to take up the slack and get patches out, but community members can't fix the major breaks and are left patching things no one cares about like textures.
    He doesn't need to say it anyway.

    It's been obvious for the longest time that ns2 has been left to modders to fix
    Squishpoke wrote: »
    I'ma help you guys out with the reading comprehension:

    1) UWE wants to focus on longer patch (quality) patch periods instead of bi-weekly (rushed) patches that are guaranteed to require hotfixes.

    2) Bi-weekly (rushed) patches and their mandatory hotfixes are stressful to UWE (and UWE's work hours) and will eventually burn out future development.

    3) The current "hotfixes" requested by the community on the current build are simply a victim of UWE's change of focus between the two patching methods.

    Let me help you with some comprehension

    Read: We are busy making an aquarium simulator. ns2 is no longer able to be supported, as much as we would like to pretend we are doing so via modders.

    Err... and what do you expect them to do? Just carry on working on NS2 non-stop? World doesn't work that way, bud.

    Here's hoping for a successful SN, and then transition back to NS, with NS3 including underwater environments by applying lessons learned with SN development. Swimming skulks wall-jumping off coral reefs? Exos floating through an underwater mineshaft? Yes please!
    I'm not expecting anything and stopped expecting anything a while ago. UWE dug their own cashflow grave.

    Stop putting words in my mouth.
  • SupaDupaNoodleSupaDupaNoodle Join Date: 2003-01-12 Member: 12232Members
    edited April 2014
    elodea wrote: »
    elodea wrote: »
    RisingSun wrote: »
    Hugh wrote: »
    RisingSun wrote: »
    hot patched
    Words
    Thank for the wordy non-answer. Basically you said this: We don't care about NS2 anymore and have moved on to other projects. Community members are left to take up the slack and get patches out, but community members can't fix the major breaks and are left patching things no one cares about like textures.
    He doesn't need to say it anyway.

    It's been obvious for the longest time that ns2 has been left to modders to fix
    Squishpoke wrote: »
    I'ma help you guys out with the reading comprehension:

    1) UWE wants to focus on longer patch (quality) patch periods instead of bi-weekly (rushed) patches that are guaranteed to require hotfixes.

    2) Bi-weekly (rushed) patches and their mandatory hotfixes are stressful to UWE (and UWE's work hours) and will eventually burn out future development.

    3) The current "hotfixes" requested by the community on the current build are simply a victim of UWE's change of focus between the two patching methods.

    Let me help you with some comprehension

    Read: We are busy making an aquarium simulator. ns2 is no longer able to be supported, as much as we would like to pretend we are doing so via modders.

    Err... and what do you expect them to do? Just carry on working on NS2 non-stop? World doesn't work that way, bud.

    Here's hoping for a successful SN, and then transition back to NS, with NS3 including underwater environments by applying lessons learned with SN development. Swimming skulks wall-jumping off coral reefs? Exos floating through an underwater mineshaft? Yes please!
    I'm not expecting anything and stopped expecting anything a while ago. UWE dug their own cashflow grave.

    Stop putting words in my mouth.

    Where did anyone put words in your mouth? Nice dodge. Comprehension: work on it.
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