I agree with sebastianoswell und ISE here. Giving hints about the content first would make things much more smoothely. You can be vague enough while doing this to still have surprises/hype (if you really want that). Giving release dates first - which will be missed, anyway - is the wrong strategy.
I agree with sebastianoswell und ISE here. Giving hints about the content first would make things much more smoothely. You can be vague enough while doing this to still have surprises/hype (if you really want that). Giving release dates first - which will be missed, anyway - is the wrong strategy.
This also allows for expectations to be kept in check and anything extra will be received better. Plus you can get SOME feedback while working on whatever you're releasing.
Oh well, at least we still have the BUS to look forward to.
@sebastianoswell It's not because some other big studios do that, that UWE and other studios should do it too. Everyone do not have the same advantages especially regarding the size of the studio. It is surely better for a small studio to communicate regularly.
And you get some kind of expectations with all games out therer, but at least when the studio is open about it, your expectations are less far from the reality, and they can be updated or can even change the final product by communicating with the devs.
@sebastianoswell It's not because some other big studios do that, that UWE and other studios should do it too. Everyone do not have the same advantages especially regarding the size of the studio. It is surely better for a small studio to communicate regularly.
And you get some kind of expectations with all games out therer, but at least when the studio is open about it, your expectations are less far from the reality, and they can be updated or can even change the final product by communicating with the devs.
I agree with sebastianoswell und ISE here. Giving hints about the content first would make things much more smoothely. You can be vague enough while doing this to still have surprises/hype (if you really want that). Giving release dates first - which will be missed, anyway - is the wrong strategy.
You guys are missing the point of my post. I am definitely not saying that communication is a bad thing. It can be a very effective tool when done correctly. Open development has become very popular recently with the boom of kickstarter and early access etc. I think it is incredibly important to have an open communication line for small tidbits of information such as:
Insert company here recognise the bug when blah blah blah and it is affecting blah blah blah. Bugfix for xxxxxxx is coming.
However, it has the potential to backfire as seen time and time again with new content and patches. I understand that UWE doesn't have to comform to the 'norm' with their marketing and having a smaller community means they are able to communicate with them easily, but in saying that, most of the posts from UWE DO start a communication breakdown between the community and the devs.
What would I do?
In this case, I don't even think being forward with new content and describing each part of the process would be worthwhile. You can say all you want about an open development process, but the reason big companies and many many small ones release content the way they do is because it works. I really think controlling releases by releasing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING before the content is announced IN FULL or close to it. To undersell the product is better than to oversell IMO.
To determine why a company would choose to do one method vs another, you have to look at customer trust and the ability to control expectations and hype. Both of these marketing/developing methods can do exactly those things if done effectively, but what UWE is doing right now is a hamfisted attempt at both at the same time, with NDA'd community members and with UWE themselves making posts about the content which they probably wouldn't agree with if it was someone under NDA making that post.
Anyways, hopefully that explained my post a little more I guess.
BeigeAlertTexasJoin Date: 2013-08-08Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
I just want to know why certain critical but easy bug fixes aren't hotfixed (ie docking, mineshaft, unknown users, etc). From what I've seen, this is the biggest gripe folks seem to have with UWE. The "completely unofficial tease release date" that Hugh posted up just for fun I think has been held against him far too much. I'd much rather have them continually teasing us with vague information than have them go completely dark because they got too specific.
A good example of this, I believe, is what Frictional Games did when they were teasing a new mystery game, which we now know as Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs (the second Amnesia game, not the first one). They would release an extremely blurry picture, and then each day onwards (or week? I forget) they would release a slightly less and less blurry version. Of course, it was absolutely useless in terms of actually figuring out what the big surprise was, but that wasn't the point! The point was to get the community talking, and it worked! Nobody was disappointed, because there really wasn't anything to be disappointed in.
Heck, I wouldn't mind if UWE just went ahead and took that idea. Post a few blurry screenshots of the stuff you're working on, and slowly un-blur them as we get closer to a release date.
SebMelbourne, AUJoin Date: 2013-04-01Member: 184576Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Silver, Retired Community Developer
edited April 2014
@Soul_Rider Exactly, Valve is an excellent example to follow. Notice how Valve in their 'information tease' stages released controlled pieces of information and a lot of it. It was controlled, they used it to control but spark the speculation and anticipation. They use content to spark debate. This is effective 2 way communication.
(Interesting to hear about the bad communication segment)
@BeigeAlert This is another good idea, because there is content there. People should know why different stuff works and why sometimes stuff can get confusing on the forums here. A blurry screenshot is 100% better than a vague comment saying xx days from now there will be an update that is HUGE!
There is a difference between rampant speculation and controlled speculation.
I just want to know why certain critical but easy bug fixes aren't hotfixed (ie docking, mineshaft, unknown users, etc). From what I've seen, this is the biggest gripe folks seem to have with UWE.
I just want to know why certain critical but easy bug fixes aren't hotfixed (ie docking, mineshaft, unknown users, etc). From what I've seen, this is the biggest gripe folks seem to have with UWE.
I get that it's hard to put a patch together but... this is twice now that an official map has had a critical bug in it. Couldn't that have been fixed the next day?
I just want to know why certain critical but easy bug fixes aren't hotfixed (ie docking, mineshaft, unknown users, etc). From what I've seen, this is the biggest gripe folks seem to have with UWE.
I get that it's hard to put a patch together but... this is twice now that an official map has had a critical bug in it. Couldn't that have been fixed the next day?
I don't think you read it carefully or you would have seen "it takes time and resources to create a patch, time and resources that are very scarce and precious" as in, creating a hotfix would... take time and resources that UWE has very few of right now
I just want to know why certain critical but easy bug fixes aren't hotfixed (ie docking, mineshaft, unknown users, etc). From what I've seen, this is the biggest gripe folks seem to have with UWE.
I get that it's hard to put a patch together but... this is twice now that an official map has had a critical bug in it. Couldn't that have been fixed the next day?
I don't think you read it carefully or you would have seen "it takes time and resources to create a patch, time and resources that are very scarce and precious" as in, creating a hotfix would... take time and resources that UWE has very few of right now
The real part of that means we have to make more patches to include the things that should have been included in the first place, meaning more of UWE's time, money, and resources are spent on NS2. It's unfortunate but it is the current situation. And if you read that carefully, you will see that this conflicts itself, and is something I don't particularly agree with. If builds included fixes when they were supposed to, we wouldn't have to create more patches to include the things that should have gone in.
I just want to know why certain critical but easy bug fixes aren't hotfixed (ie docking, mineshaft, unknown users, etc). From what I've seen, this is the biggest gripe folks seem to have with UWE.
I get that it's hard to put a patch together but... this is twice now that an official map has had a critical bug in it. Couldn't that have been fixed the next day?
I don't think you read it carefully or you would have seen "it takes time and resources to create a patch, time and resources that are very scarce and precious" as in, creating a hotfix would... take time and resources that UWE has very few of right now
I understand that, but the last build has been released over a month ago. Which raises the question if it's really so much work that it justifies a >month waiting period.
And yes, I know that there's a community patch out there, and that's great, but frankly, that's not how it's supposed to work.
I guess PAX and getting Subnautica (and Combat standalone) ready for it, as well as organizing the booths played a role this time. We'd rather have a working stable patch instead of a rushed one, don't we? Remember when they released a patch on friday night? Working overhours at the weekend taught the devs a lesson.
So they released a... not so good patch on a Friday... then stayed up on a weekend to fix it... then it's a 'screw that Friday release, we had to work over the weekend!'
Isn't it more that a patch wasn't 'patched' properly, thus having to be hot fixed over a weekend? Seems as if the cause is the patch problems, and less so the day of the week it was released. And, releasing large patches gives more room for small bugs to be overlooked. Not necessarily always true, though. If those small bugs (new or old) aren't addressed, then a hotfix is usually expected.
dePARAJoin Date: 2011-04-29Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
Its funny that some people still thinking something big NS2 related is coming in the near future.
Btw, the original thread was from march 1st.
UWE is working on there new game and ... thats it.
Something big would be:
- Inceased client/server and movementrates
- a working PhysiX implementation
- more fps cause a optimized dx11 (still beta) implemenation
- more fps cause heavy lua optimisation
- a skill based matchmaking
UWE didnt had the time to realease a hotfix for the mineshaft cyst bug.
Thats the way to keep an game alive. NOT
Its funny that some people still thinking something big NS2 related is coming in the near future.
Btw, the original thread was from march 1st.
What's wrong with that assumption? There are many people working at UWE, not all are going to be working on Subnautica.
He said he doesn't believe anything big will happen in the near future. Key words: big and near. He doesn't mean no one is working. Although, I find the argument about the amount of uwe employees as.. ironic.
Edit - he is saying uwe is done with ns2, but they seem to find others to do it for them (last bit my opinion).
''There are many people working on this stuff and subnotica. We have other people working on it.''
''Cut them some slack, they are a small Indie team.''
Dafuq?
And his assumption can be based on this entire thread mostly pointing to his conclusion. Please don't feed he hype. Expect the worse and then you can either be right or pleasantly surprised IMO.
@SamusDroid, can you please explain to me why patches take so long? If there is a critical bug, why is it time/money-consuming to make a quick hotfix for it?
SamusDroidColoradoJoin Date: 2013-05-13Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited April 2014
Takes time to make sure things are done right.
Make changes
Test
Fix
Test
Lockdown
RC test
Prepare and announce through media
Release
Seems pretty calm recently doesn't it? A storm must be coming soon...
I like how people expect things to happen when people are at pax.
PS I dislike when people are negative towards ns2, because they are wrong because they don't understand, because I don't even understand the whole reason why. I just program and implement features.
Things I do know I can't tell you or I've already told you
You want a hotfix? Most likely you will end up with another 264, a rushed patch because we had many other things going on at once
Its funny that some people still thinking something big NS2 related is coming in the near future.
Btw, the original thread was from march 1st.
UWE is working on there new game and ... thats it.
Something big would be:
- Inceased client/server and movementrates
- a working PhysiX implementation
- more fps cause a optimized dx11 (still beta) implemenation
- more fps cause heavy lua optimisation
- a skill based matchmaking
UWE didnt had the time to realease a hotfix for the mineshaft cyst bug.
Thats the way to keep an game alive. NOT
This is something big:
NS2 is obviously going free to play, with customisable skins available via DLC. If it is not going free to play, the customised skins will still be available via DLC. I am fairly sure they will make it free to play.
Then it is going to blow up, have ten billion new players and an opportunity for all the mods to get some new players too.
Seems pretty calm recently doesn't it? A storm must be coming soon...
I like how people expect things to happen when people are at pax.
PS I dislike when people are negative towards ns2, because they are wrong because they don't understand, because I don't even understand the whole reason why. I just program and implement features.
Things I do know I can't tell you or I've already told you
You want a hotfix? Most likely you will end up with another 264, a rushed patch because we had many other things going on at once
I know you must be frustrated, but this post really doesn't help anything. It reeks of arrogance tbh. The fact that you dislike when people talk about ns2 negatively because they are frustrated shows that you don't understand that the way that ns2 is being handled right now is terrible.
Honestly, UWE need to stop with this bs ****tease stuff and either drop the game or do it properly. It's just getting dumb at this point.
@SnX nice one!
What I do imagine to be big:
a) UWE stops work on NS2 entirely, but will release the source code for the community.
b) Matchmaking and hive stats changes, working together with @moultano
RC test
Prepare and announce through media
Release
Seems pretty calm recently doesn't it? A storm must be coming soon...
I like how people expect things to happen when people are at pax.
PS I dislike when people are negative towards ns2, because they are wrong because they don't understand, because I don't even understand the whole reason why. I just program and implement features.
Things I do know I can't tell you or I've already told you
You want a hotfix? Most likely you will end up with another 264, a rushed patch because we had many other things going on at once
NS2 is obviously going free to play, with customisable skins available via DLC. If it is not going free to play, the customised skins will still be available via DLC. I am fairly sure they will make it free to play.
Then it is going to blow up, have ten billion new players and an opportunity for all the mods to get some new players too.
Or maybe this is all a dream....
Yeah, it is indeed looking more and more like the game is going free 2 play or something. Hints around the time of NS2WC along with some other things going on make it at least seem that way.
I still would enjoy at least knowing before hand what is to happen... I am not exactly sure why a community of the dedicated (basically the select thousand who play the game religiously), need to be kept in the dark.
That makes me deduce that the update is not focused on them, but rather on surprising news websites and casual players who will hear about it through a steam splash page or a kotaku post. AKA, this game is going f2p... or something....
Yeah, it is indeed looking more and more like the game is going free 2 play or something
could you give some examples regarding those hints?
if free2play is really the big change, then it makes sense not to leak that information: people would stop buying the game and wait for the free version instead.
ofc one could argue that it's not quite fair to pay for a game which comes for free a few days later, but no matter when you go free: some people will always have this situation and announcing it would not change that imo.
it also makes sense to have very detailed tests (=longer patch time) before making such a change in order to make a good impression on the new players.
Yeah, it is indeed looking more and more like the game is going free 2 play or something
could you give some examples regarding those hints?
if free2play is really the big change, then it makes sense not to leak that information: people would stop buying the game and wait for the free version instead.
ofc one could argue that it's not quite fair to pay for a game which comes for free a few days later, but no matter when you go free: some people will always have this situation and announcing it would not change that imo.
it also makes sense to have very detailed tests (=longer patch time) before making such a change in order to make a good impression on the new players.
There were a number of tweets concerning cosmetics and modeling being done. Most likely of the purchasable variety.
Also some tweets after the NS2WC about opening up NS2 or something. I am also pretty sure hugh posted something once about the decision for f2p not being one that would be made easily.
Soul_RiderMod BeanJoin Date: 2004-06-19Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2014
SamusDroid advised he has been working on the project for 3 months.
When someone works on a project they need a convenient way to share their files so others can test.
Where would SamusDroid host NS2 mod files I wonder?
What if someone were to subscribe to those mods and look at the code that was in them?
SamusDroid advised he has been working on the project for 3 months.
When someone works on a project they need a convenient way to share their files so others can test.
Where would SamusDroid host NS2 mod files I wonder?
What if someone were to subscribe to those mods and look at the code that was in them?
Comments
Oh well, at least we still have the BUS to look forward to.
And you get some kind of expectations with all games out therer, but at least when the studio is open about it, your expectations are less far from the reality, and they can be updated or can even change the final product by communicating with the devs.
You guys are missing the point of my post. I am definitely not saying that communication is a bad thing. It can be a very effective tool when done correctly. Open development has become very popular recently with the boom of kickstarter and early access etc. I think it is incredibly important to have an open communication line for small tidbits of information such as:
Insert company here recognise the bug when blah blah blah and it is affecting blah blah blah. Bugfix for xxxxxxx is coming.
However, it has the potential to backfire as seen time and time again with new content and patches. I understand that UWE doesn't have to comform to the 'norm' with their marketing and having a smaller community means they are able to communicate with them easily, but in saying that, most of the posts from UWE DO start a communication breakdown between the community and the devs.
What would I do?
In this case, I don't even think being forward with new content and describing each part of the process would be worthwhile. You can say all you want about an open development process, but the reason big companies and many many small ones release content the way they do is because it works. I really think controlling releases by releasing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING before the content is announced IN FULL or close to it. To undersell the product is better than to oversell IMO.
To determine why a company would choose to do one method vs another, you have to look at customer trust and the ability to control expectations and hype. Both of these marketing/developing methods can do exactly those things if done effectively, but what UWE is doing right now is a hamfisted attempt at both at the same time, with NDA'd community members and with UWE themselves making posts about the content which they probably wouldn't agree with if it was someone under NDA making that post.
Anyways, hopefully that explained my post a little more I guess.
It's a great way to keep two-way communication going.
Latest wild stab in the dark for the update - @SamusDroid - Server Browser going into game? You've been working on that for 3 months
A good example of this, I believe, is what Frictional Games did when they were teasing a new mystery game, which we now know as Amnesia: A Machine for Pigs (the second Amnesia game, not the first one). They would release an extremely blurry picture, and then each day onwards (or week? I forget) they would release a slightly less and less blurry version. Of course, it was absolutely useless in terms of actually figuring out what the big surprise was, but that wasn't the point! The point was to get the community talking, and it worked! Nobody was disappointed, because there really wasn't anything to be disappointed in.
Heck, I wouldn't mind if UWE just went ahead and took that idea. Post a few blurry screenshots of the stuff you're working on, and slowly un-blur them as we get closer to a release date.
(Interesting to hear about the bad communication segment)
@BeigeAlert This is another good idea, because there is content there. People should know why different stuff works and why sometimes stuff can get confusing on the forums here. A blurry screenshot is 100% better than a vague comment saying xx days from now there will be an update that is HUGE!
There is a difference between rampant speculation and controlled speculation.
http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/comment/2191668/#Comment_2191668
I get that it's hard to put a patch together but... this is twice now that an official map has had a critical bug in it. Couldn't that have been fixed the next day?
I don't think you read it carefully or you would have seen "it takes time and resources to create a patch, time and resources that are very scarce and precious" as in, creating a hotfix would... take time and resources that UWE has very few of right now
This is what I'm talking about: (emphasis added)
I've been agreeing with you. What gives?
I understand that, but the last build has been released over a month ago. Which raises the question if it's really so much work that it justifies a >month waiting period.
And yes, I know that there's a community patch out there, and that's great, but frankly, that's not how it's supposed to work.
Isn't it more that a patch wasn't 'patched' properly, thus having to be hot fixed over a weekend? Seems as if the cause is the patch problems, and less so the day of the week it was released. And, releasing large patches gives more room for small bugs to be overlooked. Not necessarily always true, though. If those small bugs (new or old) aren't addressed, then a hotfix is usually expected.
Btw, the original thread was from march 1st.
UWE is working on there new game and ... thats it.
Something big would be:
- Inceased client/server and movementrates
- a working PhysiX implementation
- more fps cause a optimized dx11 (still beta) implemenation
- more fps cause heavy lua optimisation
- a skill based matchmaking
UWE didnt had the time to realease a hotfix for the mineshaft cyst bug.
Thats the way to keep an game alive. NOT
What's wrong with that assumption? There are many people working at UWE, not all are going to be working on Subnautica.
He said he doesn't believe anything big will happen in the near future. Key words: big and near. He doesn't mean no one is working. Although, I find the argument about the amount of uwe employees as.. ironic.
Edit - he is saying uwe is done with ns2, but they seem to find others to do it for them (last bit my opinion).
''There are many people working on this stuff and subnotica. We have other people working on it.''
''Cut them some slack, they are a small Indie team.''
Dafuq?
And his assumption can be based on this entire thread mostly pointing to his conclusion. Please don't feed he hype. Expect the worse and then you can either be right or pleasantly surprised IMO.
Make changes
Test
Fix
Test
Lockdown
RC test
Prepare and announce through media
Release
Seems pretty calm recently doesn't it? A storm must be coming soon...
I like how people expect things to happen when people are at pax.
PS I dislike when people are negative towards ns2, because they are wrong because they don't understand, because I don't even understand the whole reason why. I just program and implement features.
Things I do know I can't tell you or I've already told you
You want a hotfix? Most likely you will end up with another 264, a rushed patch because we had many other things going on at once
But... wouldn't a hotfix only, and really only, need to fix mineshaft? All it needs are updated map files...
This is something big:
NS2 is obviously going free to play, with customisable skins available via DLC. If it is not going free to play, the customised skins will still be available via DLC. I am fairly sure they will make it free to play.
Then it is going to blow up, have ten billion new players and an opportunity for all the mods to get some new players too.
Or maybe this is all a dream....
I know you must be frustrated, but this post really doesn't help anything. It reeks of arrogance tbh. The fact that you dislike when people talk about ns2 negatively because they are frustrated shows that you don't understand that the way that ns2 is being handled right now is terrible.
Honestly, UWE need to stop with this bs ****tease stuff and either drop the game or do it properly. It's just getting dumb at this point.
What I do imagine to be big:
a) UWE stops work on NS2 entirely, but will release the source code for the community.
b) Matchmaking and hive stats changes, working together with @moultano
Make
Test
Break
Repeat!
Yeah, it is indeed looking more and more like the game is going free 2 play or something. Hints around the time of NS2WC along with some other things going on make it at least seem that way.
I still would enjoy at least knowing before hand what is to happen... I am not exactly sure why a community of the dedicated (basically the select thousand who play the game religiously), need to be kept in the dark.
That makes me deduce that the update is not focused on them, but rather on surprising news websites and casual players who will hear about it through a steam splash page or a kotaku post. AKA, this game is going f2p... or something....
if free2play is really the big change, then it makes sense not to leak that information: people would stop buying the game and wait for the free version instead.
ofc one could argue that it's not quite fair to pay for a game which comes for free a few days later, but no matter when you go free: some people will always have this situation and announcing it would not change that imo.
it also makes sense to have very detailed tests (=longer patch time) before making such a change in order to make a good impression on the new players.
Also some tweets after the NS2WC about opening up NS2 or something. I am also pretty sure hugh posted something once about the decision for f2p not being one that would be made easily.
When someone works on a project they need a convenient way to share their files so others can test.
Where would SamusDroid host NS2 mod files I wonder?
What if someone were to subscribe to those mods and look at the code that was in them?
They would come up with wild theories....
#TinFoilHat