Is Collision Console Command a Cheat?

f0urt3f0urt3 Join Date: 2007-07-24 Member: 61671Members, Reinforced - Shadow
Hi all --
First off, I'm sorry if someone has brought this up before but I did a search on collision and it was all game-mechanic related posts.

First, a little background. I've noticed an uptick in the number of times I've been shot dead while a non-moving invisible skulk. Some of them were probably pure luck, sure. Some others of them were probably when I was in common hiding places, of course. I can remember in a couple instances, I was shot from across a map, where I was in the middle of a rock ceiling, and I wasn't moving. They definitely weren't standard hiding spots. Even if there were a "shimmer" it would be very hard to see against the rock texture. It was always the same player shooting me in those scenarios. I can't remember his his/her name and it doesn't matter.

A couple days ago a similar thing happened to someone else on my alien team. One guy was always shooting him from across a room, while cloaked and not moving, or so he claimed. I wasn't spectating so I can't confirm everything there. It sounded like a duplicate scenario.

Just today a marine chatted that he 'could see you when invisible and in dark corners.' He could have been just talking trash. Nobody complained about unfair kills.

All of this made me wonder, I saw the collision display (console command: collision) on a UWE post or e-mail somewhere and I tried it out. I didn't test it out extensively, though. IF it shows the outline of invisible skulks, then it could be used as a counter to invisibility. It could also explain what I saw in-game. That is, the marine in question could have enabled the collision display to see invisible skulks. I hesitate to call out someone for hacking (I have no direct proof and I just want to play, rather than hunting down potential cheaters) and I'm trying to find a explanation for it and the "collision" setting seems reasonable.

The bad thing is it is difficult to see in-game whether collision could be used this way without setting up a friend as a cloaked skulk to test. You really need to be able to toggle collision on and off to check. That's difficult to do in the heat of battle. Can anyone confirm whether the outline of a cloaked alien can be seen in collision? It seems that it would. After all, the game engine still needs to calculate collisions for invisible aliens.

I suggest that UWE prevents collision from being enabled unless developer mode is or cheats are enabled. This prevents someone from using this alternate view to their advantage and keeps the playing field level, unless the sever allows it. Even if it doesn't show invisible players the collision view still makes everything bright, and that alone, is an advantage for marines. (I hate it, personally, but whatever.)

Thoughts?

-d
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Comments

  • MoFoMoFo Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188047Members
    I've always wondered how certain "pro" players are able to spot invisible aliens 100% of the time no matter where they are.

    If this is true then it is an exploit and using it to gain an advantage is no different than a cheater using a hack.


  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited April 2014
    People uses different game settings, have different monitors and have different settings in their Nvidia/ATI control centers... *cough cough Gamma cough* Any number of these combos could potentially change the way the camo affect appears. Personally, I have no problem seeing them, while other people on my team dont see them at all.

    Ive never heard of that collision command so I cannot really comment on that. If it does something stupid like show skulk outlines, then it needs to be a sv_cheats 1 only command.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I am surprised that this is available without sv_cheats on tbh. I would consider it cheating.
    BUT to address your other point, don't also forget that skulks' eyes glow, and also with the ridiculous sounds that there are now, marines can hear skulks getting into ambush positions from an absolute mile away (to be fixed in the next patch and already fixed in NSL mod).
    I find it quite easy to see cloaked skulks. The shimmer is very noticeable on my rig. Also when you know they've gone shade hive, you're really looking out for the effect, too.
  • f0urt3f0urt3 Join Date: 2007-07-24 Member: 61671Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Thanks for the replies.

    The collision command shows the simplified collision geometry in bright, primary colors. That's why I think it must show cloaked aliens.

    @Roobubba‌
    1) I've never noticed the eyes glowing, but now that you mention it, I need to look.
    2) In my case, I was in place before the marine entered the room and he was so far away (think: one side of central drilling to the other) that I'm not sure he would have heard me if I was moving before he came in. I would have been creeping slowly at any rate.
  • f0urt3f0urt3 Join Date: 2007-07-24 Member: 61671Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    MoFo wrote: »
    If this is true then it is an exploit and using it to gain an advantage is no different than a cheater using a hack.
    Again, I'm not sure it is what was going on, but I think its possible. I'm not making any accusations and I don't have someone to test out my theory.

    Try it sometime, though. See what you think. Pull up the console and type 'collision' without the quotes.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    Roobubba wrote: »
    I am surprised that this is available without sv_cheats on tbh. I would consider it cheating.
    BUT to address your other point, don't also forget that skulks' eyes glow, and also with the ridiculous sounds that there are now, marines can hear skulks getting into ambush positions from an absolute mile away (to be fixed in the next patch and already fixed in NSL mod).
    I find it quite easy to see cloaked skulks. The shimmer is very noticeable on my rig. Also when you know they've gone shade hive, you're really looking out for the effect, too.

    I thought the eyes only glowed when alien vision was being used.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    haha, well IF someone is using collision in-game you will know, because they will be going from smooth movements, to lurching like an idiot. Turning collision on on my rig (I do it a lot for testing my mod) takes FPS from 175, down to 23.

    Also the range of collision is tiny, ie, it is less than half the render distance of models in the game. I am absolutely certain it would show hidden skulks, but, the drawbacks are so ridiculous as to be not worth it.

    Start up a local server and run around with collision on, and if you don't get a headache really quickly, tell me how useful it appears for cheating...
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    as for cloaking itself, the 'is cloaked but not 100% cloaked' cloak ns2 has is detectably, although far easier on short range or simple surfaces. (like a greymap)
  • RegnarebRegnareb Join Date: 2007-08-26 Member: 62008Members, NS2 Playtester
    edited April 2014
    And don't forget that the trick with the fluo aliens skins is still there... the majority of servers still allow that cheat, and Uwe official included.
  • ball2hiball2hi Join Date: 2012-10-22 Member: 163128Members
    If you stand completely still with Veil 3, you are near invisible. However, if a Marine walks along side you, he'll noticed the geometry is distorted, but only if they're along-side you. Moving your camera(mouse) while standing still causes you to shimmer. If you truly want to be invisible, don't move your mouse.

    Shades however, provide 100% invisibility while moving your camera I believe.
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited April 2014
    No a console commands to 1/8th your fps and make you blind is not cheating.
  • VirsoulVirsoul Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151977Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Onos
    edited April 2014
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    No a console commands to 1/8th your fps and make you blind is not cheating.
    Unless you bind it to a key and toggle it quickly. This would allow you to see all cloaked units and buildings in a room even if under the effects of shade. You could pick them out without scanning.

    http://imgur.com/a/tkt77
    Dark room, I wonder where the shade is....
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    It used to be that fps would drop into the "seconds per frame" using collision, but these days you can get a reasonable fps from it... I can't see any need for it in normal play, so there is no reason to have it available.

    Anyhow, I submitted it as a bug report. Can't say if anything will happen with it though; the similar one for nav_debug hasn't been touched.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2014
    Meh any command which gives information that should be on a need to know basis should be covered by the cheats command, regardless of performance hit or other excuses :P
  • HivelordHivelord Join Date: 2003-06-21 Member: 17567Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    With high gamma its incredibly easy to spot a cloaked skulk, even when the skulk isn't moving.
  • RockyMarcRockyMarc Join Date: 2009-11-24 Member: 69519Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Having under 20 ping is def cheating..
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    RockyMarc wrote: »
    Having under 20 any ping with packet loss is def cheating..

    ftfy
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited April 2014
    Cloak is definitely easy to see for me. Combination of playtime in Hidden/TF2 + BenQ monitor with properly calibrated colors and gamma.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Yeah, I see shimmers pretty well too, but it map dependent for me. I was a massive hidden fan, it's probably the only game I was really good at too, lol.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited April 2014
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    Turning collision on on my rig (I do it a lot for testing my mod) takes FPS from 175, down to 23.
    This.. as said.. is the reason why it hasn't been a concern previously.. it's just not practical for typical use in a game where it'd be considered anywhere near an "advantage".
    It causes hitching, severe mouse input delay, and a gigantic loss in fps.. Simply adjusting to these conditions while entering into an infested nanogrid room just takes any wind out of the "gives an advantage" sails.

    But yea, it should still be put behind cheats regardless, even though that will make it a PIA for testing purposes during our internal games where we occasionally notice a bump in the road and investigate etc. (we do not test with cheats on, due to the high frequency of issues, most notably inconsistent results and false positives)
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Members
    Oh dear ... pink skins are bad enough, please do hide this command.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Soul_Rider wrote: »
    Turning collision on on my rig (I do it a lot for testing my mod) takes FPS from 175, down to 23.
    This.. as said.. is the reason why it hasn't been a concern previously.. it's just not practical for typical use in a game where it'd be considered anywhere near an "advantage".
    It causes hitching, severe mouse input delay, and a gigantic loss in fps.. Simply adjusting to these conditions while entering into an infested nanogrid room just takes any wind out of the "gives an advantage" sails.

    But yea, it should still be put behind cheats regardless, even though that will make it a PIA for testing purposes during our internal games where we occasionally notice a bump in the road and investigate etc. (we do not test with cheats on, due to the high frequency of issues, most notably inconsistent results and false positives)

    Can you just have a special play tester/dev build that has all these commands allowed outside of cheats?
  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    Not sure if there is a way to bind it to a key to activate it like flash light, because then I could just use it as a room scan for 1 second before I enter and turn it off when I need to shoot.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Scatter wrote: »
    Not sure if there is a way to bind it to a key to activate it like flash light, because then I could just use it as a room scan for 1 second before I enter and turn it off when I need to shoot.
    It can be bound. I tested it today because I wanted to see if it could be used. It can but it just makes my computer hiccup. That 1 second is more like 3 seconds till your back going smooth.

    Can this be used to cheat? Yes. Is it worthwhile, not really.

  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    When I switch it on and off I don't really have much hiccup, and the fps goes to 24 which isn't so bad in the scheme of things.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    Scatter wrote: »
    When I switch it on and off I don't really have much hiccup, and the fps goes to 24 which isn't so bad in the scheme of things.
    I was at 16fps. I have an intel 3930k at 4.4ghz with amd 7970 and an ssd. Maybe you have better hardware.

  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited April 2014
    Scatter wrote: »
    Not sure if there is a way to bind it to a key to activate it like flash light, because then I could just use it as a room scan for 1 second before I enter and turn it off when I need to shoot.

    Would only take 5 lines on AHK to make a toggle for this, but I doubt anybody cares enough to do that when they can just open up their graphics control panel and bump their gamma up.
  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Scatter wrote: »
    Not sure if there is a way to bind it to a key to activate it like flash light, because then I could just use it as a room scan for 1 second before I enter and turn it off when I need to shoot.

    With a range of about 256 units, you will have to practically be standing on top of them for collision geometry to show up on the screen. Seriously, instead of saying 'I could do this and that', bind it to a key, go and play a game and see if you gain any advantage whatsoever. If you test it, and DO gain an advantage, I'll accept it can be used to 'cheat', but until then, it's a pain in the ass to use for it's legitimate purposes, let alone cheating with it...

  • ScatterScatter Join Date: 2012-09-02 Member: 157341Members, Squad Five Blue
    I did play around with it in a game, in addition to testing it further. The range is significantly greater than "standing on top of them" and is more than enough to check for phantom drop down spots in new rooms as well as determining shade and cloaked structure locations (instead of bullet scan). Run with it on, turn it off when you see something cloaked, all possible.

    As for its development purposes; this should always be subordinate to what the game play experience is for the player even if that inconveniences MYSELF also.
  • KrovakonKrovakon Join Date: 2012-05-20 Member: 152332Members
    Cloak is pitifully easy to see, I have no idea why they changed it. God forbid aliens actually be able to be sneaky.
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