Competitive and public balance - impossible to achieve both within one build?

tallhotblondetallhotblonde Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174770Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
Im not overly familiar with the state of balance in public games at the moment (seems pretty even to me?), but in all mid-level competitive games its damn hard to win as marines.
Its always going to be different because the alien team play element in public games is nil compared to competitive. It seems like we have never had a good level of balance across both public and competitive at the same time.
Is it even possible given the different play styles?
Will UWE help or do we need to rely on another unofficial/community made ensl mod?
Seeing as 6v6 match making seems to be on the horizon, a alien nerf/rine buff is needed and i assume this will ruin public play?

debate and discuss :]

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Comments

  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    At the top level, I would actually say it's easier to win as marines. When the early game pressure isn't there though the whip armies prevail.

    The pve just becomes too much hp for the marines to possibly whittle down whilst withstanding whatever lifeforms the aliens have. It simply becomes too difficult to push an entrenched area and at the same time it being too simple and cheap for the aliens to set one up.

    Since I haven't pubbed in the longest while I really can't comment on whatever is happening on that front. Although a viable alien tech tree would benefit both competitive and public. The pve structure fortresses being so cost effective and having immediate benefits in comparison to bio+hive+bio+shift+lerk upgrade (ie. umbra) is what needs to be addressed.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Increase whip tres cost by 5?
    Or
    Lessen HP of whips? (i like this one more because it makes placement more important, and easier to push through entrenched areas)
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited December 2013
    Disclaimer: I play Pubs exclusively

    From what I've seen, the main reason (aside from aim) that marines have a hard time is due to the marines having a much higher impact Commander than aliens.

    Marines are far more dependant on a good Comm that Aliens (imo), and it is far from uncommon to have a Marine comm not understand what research needs to be prioritized (such as phase gates vs upgrades vs weapons/tech).

    Often times, a public marine comm will go heavy in one direction and neglect everything else (such as getting all upgrades, but no PGs or shotguns at 10 min).

    This is most definitely a L2P issue, which should (hopefully) go away as the playerbase gets more experience, but I've never seen a bad Kahmm have such an impact on aliens.

    It just seems that no matter what the Kahmm does, the alien team as a whole cannot help but benefit (aside from the whip spam), while one or two mistakes by the Comm (or even being slow at meds/ammo) can be devastating to the whole team.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited December 2013
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Increase whip tres cost by 5?
    Or
    Lessen HP of whips? (i like this one more because it makes placement more important, and easier to push through entrenched areas)

    Increase the whip cost BACK to 15 (because it was reduced for BAD reasons). As well as taking half of the whips armor, doubling the figure, and making it health. This makes it a lot harder to mucus spam your whips... It also means that after marines leave, if a crag is healing the whip up it will take LONGER to reach full health again, even though it's the same amount of health.


    @tallhotblonde It's possible, but the devs have stated they do not want to do this. They want a single build to work for both styles of play.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    The problem with increasing whip cost is it also potentially delays skulk upgrades (which is another reason why upgrades should never have been tied to support structures)

    It's already risky considering the "front line" / "first structure contact when entering room" nature of the whip.. Increasing its cost just heightens this issue.

    But i agree with the armor suggestion.. But think the overall HP could stand to be lowered too.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited December 2013
    Nope, doesn't delay the skulk upgrades, simply subtract 5 from the upgrade cost. Exact same total cost, this will not slow them down. The reason they WERE dropped was because of the skulk upgrade, sewlek apparently forgetting that it only takes one whip to achieve this and allowing farms to be created at low cost.

    Could leave the cost where it is if you do the armour change AND lower its health (a significant amount) though I guess.
  • tallhotblondetallhotblonde Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174770Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    Regarding pub play - the rookie commander helper needs to be fixed, it tells them to build EVERYTHING in base before any RT's. I know they 'shouldn't' command without watching a tutorial blah blah but its happened several times this evening and its a almost definite marine loss against a semi decent alien side.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Yea the recommended things to do for greens are kind of dumb most of the time. (Looking at you bite the power node every time tip).
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited December 2013
    Adjusting skulk cost does nothing for the risk issue I was speaking about.
    For instance, consider whips costing 25 tres and the skulk upgrade costing 0..

    I would keep that expensive structure hidden in base like a spur or shell. The whip would cease to serve it's primary function /role, as i wouldn't be able to afford replacing it, so i would not risk it's life. (and thus it would not be useful as a structure beyond an upgrade)

    If it maintains its current cost, it's easily replaceable (just a tad more than an RT) - with the research itself being your investment.
    I see why sewlek made this decision
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Like I said though, it only takes one whip to do the research. You can drop that one whip in a safe place in base and move it out to a defensive position later. I just hate how spamable they are. They aren't particularly good individually but the fact you can just spam them all over the map is broken. I'd even rather see them keep or have MORE health for the trade of them being more expensive to prevent spam. It's a really dumb structure.
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Some more health; increased cost; give the aliens an upgrade chamber.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited December 2013
    I dont think that adjusting the cost/HP of the whip will do much of anything for pub balance....theres got to be more to it.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    I actually forgot about pub balance for a while there, need to rerail.
    In pubs whips are already useless though, people just don't know that. With the amount of marines on the field you can easily push and wipe out rooms full of whips without breaking a sweat. People are just too stupid to do that, and we don't balance for stupidity.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    That "bite the power node" tip has wreaked so much havok over the years.

    One random thing I've noticed that drastically changes between pubs and comp is the need for medpacks. Essentially the game is balanced around marines receiving medpacks in combat, which is an absolutely great game mechanic for competitive play. Unfortunately, the average public commander either never medpacks or prioritizes medpacking below building new structures and stuff, which severely limits what a marine team is capable of accomplishing. Drifter sprays don't make as big of a difference as medpacks, so it sort of pushes balance off. I really wish the game stressed the importance of medpacks more, it's really the most important thing you need to do as a commander.

    And as has been addressed already (here and countless other places) the current alien tech tree is terrible. Having lifeform upgrades separate from biomass is dubious but mostly acceptable, but linking them to support structures is just terrible. No excuse for something that makeshift being in the game so many months after release. It needs to be changed, and until it is balance will always be off.

    Really when it boils right down to it, most of the game's balance issues come from the presence of the alien commander itself. It is not well integrated into the game and many balance issues could be immediately fixed if we went back to the old NS1 style of khamm gorges. But now I'm just getting on a tangent so I'll stop talking there.
  • KanehKaneh Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174783Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    The core of the issue is that aliens T.Res is relatively unimportant, while marine T.Res is very important. whip farms are a side effect of an unanswered core issue. make whips too expensive? spam crags. and so on.

    faster 1 Hive lifeforms >>> than 2 Hive anything. As such you sacrifice everything to secure P.Res and get lifeforms out faster. there is no reasonable marine answer to 2 onos popping at 9-10 minutes.


    As for mid-level comp players...
    The upgrades in mid-level games actually favor marine a lot of the time. The difference is lack of planning/strategy hurts marines a ton. Aliens do much better being reactive, marines simply lack the mobility to play reactive.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Really when it boils right down to it, most of the game's balance issues come from the presence of the alien commander itself. It is not well integrated into the game and many balance issues could be immediately fixed if we went back to the old NS1 style of khamm gorges. But now I'm just getting on a tangent so I'll stop talking there.

    No, never stop, the kham must die.
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    I actually forgot about pub balance for a while there, need to rerail.
    In pubs whips are already useless though, people just don't know that. With the amount of marines on the field you can easily push and wipe out rooms full of whips without breaking a sweat. People are just too stupid to do that, and we don't balance for stupidity.

    We definatly should not balance for stupid, thats just stupid. :P

    As far as balancing for Comp and Pub in one build, I guess the main issue comes back to in-game training and hints. If we cant balance for stupid, maybe we should try to make things easier for said people to understand.

    Improving the Commander Help would be an AMAZING start. IDK, maybe some kind of structure/research importance value should be created for the help system? I mean, people should know without a doubt that PGs are much more important than a Robo Factory.

    Another GREAT thing to do is scrolling tips and info cards on the loading screens (since it takes a long time for most people to load anyway) or even a Tip of the Day on the main menu that players can scroll thorugh.

    Some example tips that would go a long way towards making people play "properly":

    "Its not always beneficial to spend the time to destroy the power in every room."

    "Keep getting ambushed? Let your buddy go in first, and ambush the ambushers! Live bait works best!"

    "Remember, be aggressive. If you don't buy any gear, consider yourself expendable and go for what costs the enemy Resources!"

    "If you are not making any progress on one side of the map, try going a different way."
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    Marines have a hard time winning games in the comp scene?
  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising California Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited December 2013
    Would it be possible to try out no alien comm? Give all the support structures back to the gorge and tweak things? Would it be easy to mod out? We might want to give this a shot. Bring back the true asymmetry. Most if not all the advocates for alien comm have moved on to their other project. Bring back the days of having to communicate as aliens at the start! Gorge Power!!!
  • BensonBenson Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148303Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    NS2C already has GorgeComms, with only a few tweaks, they could be made to work in NS2.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Benson wrote: »
    NS2C already has GorgeComms, with only a few tweaks, they could be made to work in NS2.

    I never can find servers with people running NS2C, which is a shame. I would probably play it more than NS2 if possible.
  • |DFA| Havoc|DFA| Havoc Join Date: 2009-08-07 Member: 68375Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    "Competitive and public balance - impossible to achieve both within one build?"


    Pretty much, yeah.
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited December 2013
    Jekt wrote: »
    At the top level, I would actually say it's easier to win as marines.

    Too true. If both aliens and marines don't miss, it's mathematically impossible to win as aliens. The more both teams miss, the easier it becomes to win with aliens.

    So, when there's people that are good playing on both teams, it's much easier to win as marines. Conversely, when both teams are bad, it's much easier to win as aliens.

    ... and the game is pretty much balanced around the former at the moment IMO. That's why pub marines suffer... but there's the rub - make aliens less-powerful and aliens get roflstomped when people get more experience and bads are filtered out (no recent sales etc.).

    But that matters little, because probably about 95% of the game and its recorded/reported stats revolve around a can of lays-stax-salt-vinegar__67493_zoom.gif anyway.

    P.S. I remember someone saying that "good marines are a lot more scary than good aliens." Easily explained in a game of melee vs ranged. With melee, even if you're the most præ with all aimbots on in the face of the universe (mars aimbots included), you can't even cause significant damage before you can get to a marine on alien side (except lerk/gorge), whereas with marines, you can cause death as fast as the DPS of your gun (which in NS2 is pretty high, pretty much almost instant for skulks with the quite lulz lag compensation, assuming 100% hit of course).

    Of course, you can camp around corners which minimizes that distance, which is assumed when everyone is that perfect, but even then there is some travel and lagDERPolation time in which a marine can dispose of skulks with little or no damage received IMO.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    Like I said though, it only takes one whip to do the research. You can drop that one whip in a safe place in base and move it out to a defensive position later. I just hate how spamable they are. They aren't particularly good individually but the fact you can just spam them all over the map is broken. I'd even rather see them keep or have MORE health for the trade of them being more expensive to prevent spam. It's a really dumb structure.
    Wait you're suggesting i drop an expensive structure just for a skulk upgrade that does absolutely nothing like a veil or spur?
    I don't think that's a solution.

    If them being spammed is an issue, then them being easier to kill can counter that issue, can it not?

    ideally.. the evolution chamber is the solution, allowing us to balance these structures without concern for lifeform upgrades.. but who knows if that will happen.
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited December 2013
    Whip spam isn't an issue - at all. In fact, they're so useless they're almost a complete waste of res. It's an atrocity that skulk upgrades are on a whip that you can't even recycle after building. Nearly a completely useless structure for a very useful mid-game upgrade. Unlike marine sentries, they have limited range, and marines have plenty of tools to dispose of them extremely quickly.

    E.g. one arc, one GL.

    The problem on the other side, with marine sentries, is that if you spam them, no alien can even turn a corner to attempt to bile bomb them.

    If you think whip spam is a problem, I suggest you play on servers with semi-decent people (hint: look for hats. I mean, icons).
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    It's a problem because it's a huge snowball for aliens. If marines pressure properly then they are not an issue, but if the pressure is let off even for a little bit, soon every room is filled with whips...and it advances...and advances. The horror.
  • DaxxDaxx Join Date: 2002-04-16 Member: 460Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    HeatSurge wrote: »
    Whip spam isn't an issue - at all. In fact, they're so useless they're almost a complete waste of res. It's an atrocity that skulk upgrades are on a whip that you can't even recycle after building. Nearly a completely useless structure for a very useful mid-game upgrade. Unlike marine sentries, they have limited range, and marines have plenty of tools to dispose of them extremely quickly.

    E.g. one arc, one GL.

    The problem on the other side, with marine sentries, is that if you spam them, no alien can even turn a corner to attempt to bile bomb them.

    If you think whip spam is a problem, I suggest you play on servers with semi-decent people (hint: look for hats. I mean, icons).

    Whip spam is only an issue in small (comp) games. 2-3 whips stops that 1-2 marine push until it can be reinforced by an alien player, but in the larger pub servers they are just speedbumps to the 6+ marine deathball.

    A server mod may be the best "quick" solution, I've always thought that some form of scaling balance based on player count would help.
  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    When considering ENSL, the game is not the same anymore actually with the addition of friendly fire.


    Besides that, the problem really lies within the balancing of idividual skill / team play / player numbers.
    Not competive vs pub; it does feel like it because in competitive you usually have teamwork, a bunch of more or less skilled players and a low player number as opposed to the avarage pub server with plently of bad players, very little teamwork and 18-24 players.

    Ideally, this should be balanced for both.

    I think some scaling for the player count is required, because currently the game is really different compared 6v6 to 12v12. Such as the alien building, which is "OP" in low player count, while on marines are bound to build, and aliens can just pressure. Also marines with 1 IP on 12v12 end up being in a massive queue, which requires an additional 20 TRES drop early.
    Also affects the combat mechanics; buildings die signifcantly faster to more players, 5 onos are hard to priorize on one to take them down, and so on...


    Skill floor/ceiling changes can make it work different skill levels. Though I'd rather leave it that way it is, to make this highly skill based, then going down the COD route and making it too easy.
    It does work if teams are roughly of the same level of skill and teamplay.


    Of course there are other issues to address that happen regardless, if something is really off in terms of balance (lifeforms coming out a bit early, etc). I might do my own balance/redesign mod at some time, but I don't really feel like messing with NS2's lua.
  • RapGodRapGod Not entirely sure... Join Date: 2013-11-12 Member: 189322Members
    I have waited for a pub mod mode... gameplay is a lot different with larger servers. the game is mostly balanced for comp, so the community needs to mod it to make it more pub friendly. wish I knew how lol
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