Gorge tunnels should be "fixed" the right way...Agree or Disagree?

MoFoMoFo Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188047Members
I know there was a thread on Tunnels already, but I couldn't find it, so here goes...

I understand why they made it so Gorge tunnels can't be placed in elevated positions or in vents... really I do... I may not agree with it, but I understand it...

But this is really just too much... I'm coming across SO many places on ground level that are blocked off.. It's like you can only place tunnels right out in the open where Marines are guaranteed to see them...

A few examples....

Refinery - Under the stairs in the room next to flow control... You can't place the tunnel unless it's far enough forward for Marines to see it while running down the stairs...

Tram - In server room, you can't place them behind the servers in the back anymore... they can only be placed out in the open where Marines can easily see them from nearly anywhere in the room.

Summit - In Flight, back in the corner (which used to be a regular tunnel spot) - now you can't place the tunnel around the corner so it's out of sight... it has to be out in the open where Marines can see it.

and that's just 3... If you want to sneak up a tunnel you have to be lucky enough to grow it (and with all the noise you make this isn't easy) then you have to have a comm drop a shade on it (sadly, many don't want to spend the res on it) then hope you can build the shade before being discovered (which again is hard because the heal spray is so loud)


- I get not wanting them to be placable in glitchy/bugged or unfair positions... but this "fix" has really taken it much too far. Why couldn't they just block off our ability to place them in vents/platforms/etc?!? Would it really have been that much more work?

The worst part is that now Tunnels are only useful between two Alien bases... Anywhere else and they're not only a waste of res, but a liability since Marines can use them to enter your base.







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Comments

  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited November 2013
    Just make them cost 20-30tres to research again please...Game is so broken (ESPECIALLY in pub) since they've become free.

    EDIT: I agree with OP that tunnels should ONLY have been stopped from being put in places no single marine with no JP could get to. So low vents are fine, under stairs is fine, etc.
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited November 2013
    Well, you can't just make more pathing to suit tunnels because then you have issues with AI pathing.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited November 2013
    MoFo wrote: »
    The worst part is that now Tunnels are only useful between two Alien bases... Anywhere else and they're not only a waste of res, but a liability since Marines can use them to enter your base.
    MoFo wrote: »
    only useful between two Alien bases
    MoFo wrote: »
    a liability since Marines can use them to enter your base.

    I think you just contradicted yourself there, friend... ;) but yea, the only way they are useful without being a liability is if they are not between two alien bases.


    Other than that.. i agree.
    The solution: Make them researchable again..

    I don't care if its "more fun" or "more toys" for the gorge early game.. we've lost the creative positioning due to the mobile team having even quicker transport method within the first minute of a round. (i.e. balance)
    I don't remember anyone asking for this.. or it ever being an idea people supported in here :-/

    Is anyone actually opposed to it going back to being researchable?
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Is anyone actually opposed to it going back to being researchable?

    I already said no. But I'm going to have to say no.
  • NeoQuaker1NeoQuaker1 New York Join Date: 2013-02-19 Member: 183182Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    IronHorse wrote: »
    I think you just contradicted yourself there, friend... ;) but yea, the only way they are useful without being a liability is if they are not between two alien bases.

    Where exactly did Mofo contradict himself? And how is having a tunnel between two fortified bases a liability? Most marines who walk into an alien base get slaughtered quickly unless its a an organized effort of a group of marines.


  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited November 2013
    @neoquaker1
    Read that sentence of his again.
    He says the "only useful" method is between two bases, but then states that "anywhere else" - wording that implies exclusivity and a distinction from what he just mentioned - has its downsides, which included "Marines [using] them to enter your base"... which.. can only be done by adhering to the method he just previously declared as being the "only useful" method? The very one he just made a distinction from and isn't speaking about? *scratches head*

    Its really irrelevant to the discussion at hand, though, hehe, i just thought i'd say something after re reading his sentence like 5 times :-P
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    edited November 2013
    Or that room on mineshaft with the RT, south of drill repair and east of operations. You can no longer place the tunnel down below in the pit where those 2 large pipes enter the floor, even though marines can easily get down there and use the ladder to get back out.
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @neoquaker1
    Read that sentence of his again.
    He says the "only useful" method is between two bases, but then states that "anywhere else" - wording that implies exclusivity and a distinction from what he just mentioned - has its downsides, which included "Marines [using] them to enter your base"... which.. can only be done by adhering to the method he just previously declared as being the "only useful" method? The very one he just made a distinction from and isn't speaking about? *scratches head*

    Its really irrelevant to the discussion at hand, though, hehe, i just thought i'd say something after re reading his sentence like 5 times :-P

    I think you misunderstood or are confused, marines can enter your base as long as one of the two exits is in it. This is how 98% of the tunnels I have ever seen are placed, and is likely what he meant. One exit by the hive, one elsewhere on the map (if this second exit is by a diff hive it is if anything safer).
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    I can't remember the last time I saw a marine infiltrating the hive through a tunnel actually cause any problems. It's a minor nuisance for the skulk that finds them at best.
  • piratedavepiratedave Join Date: 2012-03-10 Member: 148561Members
    edited November 2013
    This is what happens when you get a programmer to fix a mapping problem.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    MoFo wrote: »
    then hope you can build the shade before being discovered (which again is hard because the heal spray is so loud)

    Another reason why shade could be considered as viable first (second) pub hive. Nobody believes me.
  • MrFangsMrFangs Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184474Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    xen32 wrote: »
    Another reason why shade could be considered as viable first (second) pub hive. Nobody believes me.

    I don't get what you mean.... you don't need a shade hive to drop a shade? And going shift hive first would even allow you to echo one that's already built, which is obviously safer.
  • RunkiRunki Helsingborg, Sweden Join Date: 2012-12-02 Member: 173929Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    No one else curious why you cant place them on roof/walls? If it wasn't made for that then why does the model adapt to any surface when placing
  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members
    Runki wrote: »
    No one else curious why you cant place them on roof/walls? If it wasn't made for that then why does the model adapt to any surface when placing

    Would be bad for an Onos or Gorge who went through one without knowing that it was off the floor since he couldn't get back in it.
  • KattcattisKattcattis Join Date: 2013-01-31 Member: 182683Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I didn't know they did this with the gorge tunnels, no wonder I can not place them anywhere!! It's SO hard to find a spot to place the tunnel sometime, it takes a good minute before it's placed because you still want it in sort of a good spot (even if this is just placing it in base!). I know for fact that in Fabrication on Descent, that it is nearly impossible to place it and I believe the only spot is somewhere at the rt... And I believe you can not place the tunnel in any "good" spot in water treatment. I guess Aliens are forced to place them right in the pathway so Marines have it easier to just walk right in them even if they are shaded -.-
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    MrFangs wrote: »
    xen32 wrote: »
    Another reason why shade could be considered as viable first (second) pub hive. Nobody believes me.

    I don't get what you mean.... you don't need a shade hive to drop a shade? And going shift hive first would even allow you to echo one that's already built, which is obviously safer.

    Silence. Silently get tunnel up, silently get shade up. Not even to mention camo to get behind enemy lines.
  • RunkiRunki Helsingborg, Sweden Join Date: 2012-12-02 Member: 173929Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2013
    Desther wrote: »
    Runki wrote: »
    No one else curious why you cant place them on roof/walls? If it wasn't made for that then why does the model adapt to any surface when placing

    Would be bad for an Onos or Gorge who went through one without knowing that it was off the floor since he couldn't get back in it.

    Well they should fix that, maybe allow it to be place a few feet of the ground, in gorge/onos jump height.
    Only other answer i got from a fellow player was that it looked too much like a butthole if it was on a wall, and i agree
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    xen32 wrote: »
    MoFo wrote: »
    then hope you can build the shade before being discovered (which again is hard because the heal spray is so loud)

    Another reason why shade could be considered as viable first (second) pub hive. Nobody believes me.

    I do! I do! But they are all so keen on their crags!
  • PaajtorPaajtor Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168634Members
    Try to place a good tunnel in Cave....either right in the open, or in front of that small tunnel on the right, or on the techpoint itself.
    I've wasted precious seconds finding a better spot, but in the end I go like screw it, it's taken long enough it goes on the damn techpoint, the most obvious place.

    This might be "balanced" for some reason, but it's also boring.
  • [AwE]Sentinel[AwE]Sentinel Join Date: 2012-06-05 Member: 152949Members
    I think the changes fit to everything uwe did along the way. If it is fun or usefull for aliens -> nerf it until noone wants to use it anymore and add some marine goodies ;) Yes, I am looking at you ranged spores and nerve grenades!

    Btw, what was wrong with hive/mc teleportation and building chambers in vents? You can't place any support building but hydras in a vent now, is that not punishment enough? Gorge Tunnels are inferior to use compared to hive teleportation and phasegates, yet you can't even hide them, because of the reasons in the OP and the fact that you can't cloak infestation anymore. Shades won't do the trick if the tunnel/infestation has to be near a frequently used corridor. It is also a highway for upgrade hunting marines. It takes ages to react and reach a tunnel exit under attack and if you go out you are most likely directly in the fire line. If I wouldn't have played ns1 for years, it might not even bother me now, but I can't help but compare ns2 with ns1. And if ns1 was an oasis in the desert, ns2 is a rock with scorpions under it in the same desert. Sure, you can eat the scorpions, but you would rather want to reach the oasis.
  • d0ped0gd0ped0g Join Date: 2003-05-25 Member: 16679Members
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    Just make them cost 20-30tres to research again please...Game is so broken (ESPECIALLY in pub) since they've become free.

    EDIT: I agree with OP that tunnels should ONLY have been stopped from being put in places no single marine with no JP could get to. So low vents are fine, under stairs is fine, etc.

    Adding to that: if it can be shot from a distance with an LMG (doing full damage) without necessarily getting to it. Also, it shouldn't involve any overly complicated climbing (e.g. to the raised platform above Cargo) to get into a position to reach the tunnel or shoot it down.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    xen32 wrote: »
    MoFo wrote: »
    then hope you can build the shade before being discovered (which again is hard because the heal spray is so loud)

    Another reason why shade could be considered as viable first (second) pub hive. Nobody believes me.

    Wouldnt it make more sense to shift first and echo the shade?
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    xen32 wrote: »
    MoFo wrote: »
    then hope you can build the shade before being discovered (which again is hard because the heal spray is so loud)

    Another reason why shade could be considered as viable first (second) pub hive. Nobody believes me.

    Wouldnt it make more sense to shift first and echo the shade?

    He means that you can make sneaky tunnels way better with phantom.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited November 2013
    @1dominator1
    Oh good point, didnt consider that he meant from Base to Base, excluding Base to somewhere else.. but still.. it would apply non the less, considering the marine would still be able to get back to the alien base in either example??

    @sotanaht
    @neoquaker1
    did you both disagree with my post based on that one non sequitor comment of mine, or was it because you feel gorge tunnels should not be researchable?
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Runki wrote: »
    No one else curious why you cant place them on roof/walls? If it wasn't made for that then why does the model adapt to any surface when placing

    $-) $-) $-)

    GIEF. Would be so ridiculously funny. So many nooks and crannies in the roof it'd make hiding a tunnel so much easier. Not to mention having aliens pour on your face from the roof would be cool as hell.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    xen32 wrote: »
    MoFo wrote: »
    then hope you can build the shade before being discovered (which again is hard because the heal spray is so loud)

    Another reason why shade could be considered as viable first (second) pub hive. Nobody believes me.

    Wouldnt it make more sense to shift first and echo the shade?

    But you can't echo the tunnel :(
  • catolmcatolm Norway Join Date: 2013-10-31 Member: 188909Members, Reinforced - Silver
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    I never saw the need for the change and the nsl rules about gorge tunnels.

    If marines cant reach the tunnel, some lifeforms also can't. Its a trade off. Besides, ever tried reaching a tunnel fast which is placed somewhere high up as a skulk?
    Make it researchable for all I care but I am definitely in the tunnels everywhere group. There are plenty other ways for marines to solve the 'I cant reach it' problem.
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    MrFangs wrote: »
    xen32 wrote: »
    Another reason why shade could be considered as viable first (second) pub hive. Nobody believes me.

    I don't get what you mean.... you don't need a shade hive to drop a shade? And going shift hive first would even allow you to echo one that's already built, which is obviously safer.

    apologies if this has been answered. He means a shade hive for getting Phantom to heal spray with no noise.


  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think in this case a Comp. rule is working (no tunnels in weird places as a gentleman's (and gentle ladies) agreement , so there was no need to make life hard for the pubbers like myself. But it was hard coded in to make it hard for a quick counter attack (and that limits game play). I would like to see Tunnels as it was before (can be placed pretty much any where). And I don't mind if it is research able either way (separate or lumped with George research but require biomass 1). This will open up game play, as you now have a choice of openings...

    Shade / Crag / Shift / or Early tunnels for map control.

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