Rookie tag really needs to be reworked

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Comments

  • ChizzlerChizzler Join Date: 2013-01-04 Member: 177532Members
    Some of you are right when you say that at some point these rookies have to enter general server and will get stomped, but a player that has had 40 hours of enjoyable matches and has learned the basic mechanics of the game is much more likely to stick with the game than someone who's first 4 hours involve getting stomped over and over. I nearly quit when I first got the game due to the first 10 or so hours being particularly unenjoyable. If I hadn't of loved the original NS mod so much I never would have stuck with it.

    Something to think about next time you're 'teaching' rookies.
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited November 2013
    Rookie tag -50 hours - you cannot enter white servers as a rookie unless you remove the tag from yourself
    Only rookies can enter rookie servers

    All other servers remain regular, doesn't really solve much but it'll keep rookies with rookies
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    There are really a couple of issues with it, and I think the whole thing has been pretty poorly handled by UWE. For starters, why does the rookie tag last only four hours? Who could possibly become good enough to play on a non-rookie server after just four hours?

    The other problem is that it's harder to get people to join a server that isn't "rookie friendly" so most people running the servers stick the label on so they will get more traffic. So in a way you can't blame experienced players for joining rookie friendly servers, since there are so few servers that aren't rookie friendly. You can, however, blame them for intentionally playing on the same team as other experienced players and ruining the experience for everyone else.

    Here's what UWE should have done (at this point it might be too late for it to have an effect but a year ago it would have been excellent): make the rookie tag last much longer, 20-50 hours. Instead of letting people running servers decide whether to label it rookie-friendly or not, create a few Official UWE Rookie Only servers. Only people with rookie tags would be allowed to enter these servers, with the exception of a few whitelisted vets who are dedicated to coaching the rookies.

    It's so great to see members of the community creating servers like the DFA Noobs Only server, and I have spent some time on it and found it to be really successful. But could you imagine if, instead of being a community-driven project, the developers were the ones running these types of servers? It would make everything a whole lot easier.
  • StarkStark Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186336Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think that increasing the time that the rookie tag lasts as well as creating rookie-specific servers, with mentors, are both good ideas. As Blarney mentioned, DFA Noobs Only is one such server that really is rookie friendly. What allows it work though is the constant admin over watch. I know |DFA| Havoc mentioned that despite announcing it on these forums (granted, I know not everyone reads this stuff) and explaining it in the server welcome message, veterans still come to that server and stomp. He has had to use the banhammer religiously, but in doing so he has created and maintained a very fun and friendly learning environment for new players.

    It's been said many, many times that you can't change the nature of online multiplayer gamers. You can't expect every skilled player to be morally accountable and not stomp new players. I do like the idea of Official UWE Rookie Only servers, as the name alone brings a certain legitimacy, however you'll still need banhammer wielding admins - which will end up being community members anyway - so in the end I'm not really sure if official UWE servers will be any different than servers like DFA's.

    Sorry if I echoed a lot of points. Just trying to add my two cents.
  • monkeydogmonkeydog Join Date: 2010-02-18 Member: 70626Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    As a rookie, I get pubstomped by vets in green servers all the time. It's no big deal, I've learned valuable lessons from it. I have a lot of trouble shooting the guys who know how to attack from the walls and ceiling, so I've been practicing the technique myself. I may go 2-18 consistently but the game is still fun. The people who quit because they get owned while they are learning a new game need to go back to runescape because most FPS's have a learning curve. NS2 is very unique, so the rookie phase tends to take longer to get out of.

    TL;dr Extend time spent as rookie, but stop complaining about vets pubstomping.
  • current1ycurrent1y Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    ezekel wrote: »
    Rookie tag -50 hours - you cannot enter white servers as a rookie unless you remove the tag from yourself
    Only rookies can enter rookie servers

    All other servers remain regular, doesn't really solve much but it'll keep rookies with rookies

    this x1 billion...or somthing similar.

    50%+ of the servers labeled rookie servers are misleading at best. The time where the game had 4000 green players is long past...
  • AceDauntlessAceDauntless Join Date: 2013-05-16 Member: 185253Members, Reinforced - Gold
    I don't know how I feel about completely giving rookies a total "safe zone".

    Getting destroyed when I started playing is how I got better, getting killed by good marines taught me what not to do, forcing me to play right instead of just doing whatever.

    Playing with only scrubs with only enforce horrible habits, and would terribly segregate the community. And as I've said plenty of times, this community is really not large enough to have anything that forces players apart.
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Members
    Stark wrote: »
    I think that increasing the time that the rookie tag lasts as well as creating rookie-specific servers, with mentors, are both good ideas. As Blarney mentioned, DFA Noobs Only is one such server that really is rookie friendly. What allows it work though is the constant admin over watch. I know |DFA| Havoc mentioned that despite announcing it on these forums (granted, I know not everyone reads this stuff) and explaining it in the server welcome message, veterans still come to that server and stomp. He has had to use the banhammer religiously, but in doing so he has created and maintained a very fun and friendly learning environment for new players.

    It's been said many, many times that you can't change the nature of online multiplayer gamers. You can't expect every skilled player to be morally accountable and not stomp new players. I do like the idea of Official UWE Rookie Only servers, as the name alone brings a certain legitimacy, however you'll still need banhammer wielding admins - which will end up being community members anyway - so in the end I'm not really sure if official UWE servers will be any different than servers like DFA's.

    Sorry if I echoed a lot of points. Just trying to add my two cents.

    I loved dfa, might come around for some sweet gorge ownage. gandalf style. you shall not pass. or good opportunity to practice parasite in a low pressure environment.
  • NedStarNedStar Join Date: 2013-08-30 Member: 187224Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2013
    Getting destroyed when I started playing is how I got better, getting killed by good marines taught me what not to do, forcing me to play right instead of just doing whatever.

    Might be the case for you but most people will simply leave the game after repeatedly dying. Probably followed with some insults about the game and how team X is clearly unbalanced.
    While a rookie only server with possible mentors might not give em the full experience and widen the gap, it does allow more players to stay and get over the basic learning curve.

    Extending the rookie tag duration to about 50 hours with a pop up after a few hours on how to join regular servers would be best. Allow rookies to enable or disable their rookie tag on the fly for the first 50 hours so they can on occasion join a regular server to thread the water while still being able to go back to their safe heaven if they aren't ready yet.
    Give em a pop-up every 10 hours that they should join a regular server to get ready for when they leave the rookie phase and they shouldn't feel as much of a gap.
    Rookies should always stay green during the 50h phase.

    Nobody really loses from this I'd say, long term we'll probably gain more people while losing some players short term. Giving the rookies more power about how they play their game is in everyone's best interest. Allow veterans to join but only stay in the comm chair or spectate and blam you got an easy way to allow mentoring.

    If NS2 hopes to attract the more casual crowd it better start with giving them a friendly area to practice in.
  • rayzourayzou Join Date: 2013-03-18 Member: 184066Members, WC 2013 - Shadow
    So, let's add some servers that with different slots : on a 16 slots server, we'll have two "teacher" slots (forced to join commander) and 14 rookie slots.

    Such a system is to work on, imo. It could give such a big value... I've seen a lot of experienced people wanting to help rookies, but can't really do it completely.

    The thing, in NS2, is that there's not a good system for sharing experience, helping people to progress and better understand the game.
  • AceDauntlessAceDauntless Join Date: 2013-05-16 Member: 185253Members, Reinforced - Gold
    NedStar wrote: »
    Getting destroyed when I started playing is how I got better, getting killed by good marines taught me what not to do, forcing me to play right instead of just doing whatever.

    Might be the case for you but most people will simply leave the game after repeatedly dying. Probably followed with some insults about the game and how team X is clearly unbalanced.
    While a rookie only server with possible mentors might not give em the full experience and widen the gap, it does allow more players to stay and get over the basic learning curve.

    Extending the rookie tag duration to about 50 hours with a pop up after a few hours on how to join regular servers would be best. Allow rookies to enable or disable their rookie tag on the fly for the first 50 hours so they can on occasion join a regular server to thread the water while still being able to go back to their safe heaven if they aren't ready yet.
    Give em a pop-up every 10 hours that they should join a regular server to get ready for when they leave the rookie phase and they shouldn't feel as much of a gap.
    Rookies should always stay green during the 50h phase.

    Nobody really loses from this I'd say, long term we'll probably gain more people while losing some players short term. Giving the rookies more power about how they play their game is in everyone's best interest. Allow veterans to join but only stay in the comm chair or spectate and blam you got an easy way to allow mentoring.

    If NS2 hopes to attract the more casual crowd it better start with giving them a friendly area to practice in.



    Maybe you're right, I don't know I just feel like the new players won't be learning anything, and will then just leave once they get forced to play with "real" players. Giving someone a safe zone doesn't change the fact that the game has a massively high skill ceiling, I think people who would leave after a game or two of getting wrecked would just stop playing once the same thing happens after fifty hours.
  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Kalabalana wrote: »
    Get rid of the rookie 10 hour setting altogether.
    Give players a time played badge that updates over time played.
    5 hours, 25, 100, 250, 500, 1000, 1500, etc

    That doesn't sound too bad tbh.

  • KalabalanaKalabalana Join Date: 2003-11-14 Member: 22859Members
    Omega_K2 wrote: »
    Kalabalana wrote: »
    Get rid of the rookie 10 hour setting altogether.
    Give players a time played badge that updates over time played.
    5 hours, 25, 100, 250, 500, 1000, 1500, etc

    That doesn't sound too bad tbh.

    Then allow servers to filter players accordingly.
    These badges would also be a great way to help organize fairer teams, either automatically, or visually by other players
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    If there were to be an additional badge added, please make this one only viable in the scoreboard.

    And for the love of god... let me toggle off the badges I don't want. :3
  • StarkStark Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186336Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    amoral wrote: »
    Stark wrote: »
    I think that increasing the time that the rookie tag lasts as well as creating rookie-specific servers, with mentors, are both good ideas. As Blarney mentioned, DFA Noobs Only is one such server that really is rookie friendly. What allows it work though is the constant admin over watch. I know |DFA| Havoc mentioned that despite announcing it on these forums (granted, I know not everyone reads this stuff) and explaining it in the server welcome message, veterans still come to that server and stomp. He has had to use the banhammer religiously, but in doing so he has created and maintained a very fun and friendly learning environment for new players.

    It's been said many, many times that you can't change the nature of online multiplayer gamers. You can't expect every skilled player to be morally accountable and not stomp new players. I do like the idea of Official UWE Rookie Only servers, as the name alone brings a certain legitimacy, however you'll still need banhammer wielding admins - which will end up being community members anyway - so in the end I'm not really sure if official UWE servers will be any different than servers like DFA's.

    Sorry if I echoed a lot of points. Just trying to add my two cents.

    I loved dfa, might come around for some sweet gorge ownage. gandalf style. you shall not pass. or good opportunity to practice parasite in a low pressure environment.

    I think they recently changed the rule to no vets in the field, but there might be some exceptions. You're right though, the times that you do get to run around are great for fine tuning skills like aiming, jumping, etc.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    +1 to hour-based badges. Then servers would be allowed to filter to certain experience levels, so for example a "rookie-friendly" server would filter out anyone with more than 100 hours or something

    It's much better than the honor code based system that's in place now.
  • AceDauntlessAceDauntless Join Date: 2013-05-16 Member: 185253Members, Reinforced - Gold
    I don't know if we're all playing the same game but there is literally not enough players and we'd have servers with like 6 people in each server if we start segregating the community even more.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    edited November 2013
    NedStar wrote: »
    Getting destroyed when I started playing is how I got better, getting killed by good marines taught me what not to do, forcing me to play right instead of just doing whatever.

    Might be the case for you but most people will simply leave the game after repeatedly dying. Probably followed with some insults about the game and how team X is clearly unbalanced.
    While a rookie only server with possible mentors might not give em the full experience and widen the gap, it does allow more players to stay and get over the basic learning curve.

    Extending the rookie tag duration to about 50 hours with a pop up after a few hours on how to join regular servers would be best. Allow rookies to enable or disable their rookie tag on the fly for the first 50 hours so they can on occasion join a regular server to thread the water while still being able to go back to their safe heaven if they aren't ready yet.
    Give em a pop-up every 10 hours that they should join a regular server to get ready for when they leave the rookie phase and they shouldn't feel as much of a gap.
    Rookies should always stay green during the 50h phase.

    Nobody really loses from this I'd say, long term we'll probably gain more people while losing some players short term. Giving the rookies more power about how they play their game is in everyone's best interest. Allow veterans to join but only stay in the comm chair or spectate and blam you got an easy way to allow mentoring.

    If NS2 hopes to attract the more casual crowd it better start with giving them a friendly area to practice in.



    Maybe you're right, I don't know I just feel like the new players won't be learning anything, and will then just leave once they get forced to play with "real" players. Giving someone a safe zone doesn't change the fact that the game has a massively high skill ceiling, I think people who would leave after a game or two of getting wrecked would just stop playing once the same thing happens after fifty hours.

    ......whaaat, come on.... Currently they're forced to play with real players right away. What's the difference? There is none. Don't say silly things.

    Also spending a few hours playing and having a few servers is not going to segregate anything... We're talking about an intro stage into the game here, how's it segregating anything if it only lasts for a while...

    Absolutely no reason not to do this - should have been done long time ago.

    The only REMOTELY good reason against newbie only servers has been "there are no other servers" and that's a problem on its own shouldn't be an obstacle for rookie onelyes...

    Edit: Sorry about all the dots.....am tired...me bed nao...
  • joederpjoederp Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165992Members
    I don't know if we're all playing the same game but there is literally not enough players and we'd have servers with like 6 people in each server if we start segregating the community even more.

    Ah the self fulfilling prophecy.. Let me explain it once again in perhaps an easier to understand formula:

    Not enough players to segregate into rookie only and non rookie servers = rookies and vets forced to play together = rookies get stomped and screamed at for sucking at the game = rookies quit and uninstall = Not enough players to segregate into rookie only and non rookie servers = rookies and vets forced to play together = rookies get stomped and screamed at for sucking at the game = rookies quit and uninstall = Not enough players to segregate into rookie only and non rookie servers = rookies and vets forced to play together = rookies get stomped and screamed at for sucking at the game = rookies quit and uninstall = Not enough players to segregate into rookie only and non rookie servers = rookies and vets forced to play together = rookies get stomped and screamed at for sucking at the game = rookies quit and uninstall = Not enough players to segregate into rookie only and non rookie servers = rookies and vets forced to play together = rookies get stomped and screamed at for sucking at the game = rookies quit and uninstall = Not enough players to segregate into rookie only and non rookie servers = rookies and vets forced to play together = rookies get stomped and screamed at for sucking at the game = rookies quit and uninstall = STACK OVERFLOW ERROR 0x0mFG5TFU
  • AceDauntlessAceDauntless Join Date: 2013-05-16 Member: 185253Members, Reinforced - Gold
    edited November 2013
    Quake live has a tier system and when you start you only play with newbs.

    This is its retention rate.

    9QsKmod.png?1

    A high skill game is a high skill game, letting people touch their toes in the water really doesn't help once they eventually get thrown in.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Quake Live being free probably skews the numbers a little bit
  • MoFoMoFo Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188047Members
    edited November 2013
    I honestly think the problem has more to do with stacking than it does with experienced players on rookie servers.

    Many times after a horribly one sided game, I'll notice the same 2-4 top players from the winning team grouping up again. Yesterday I played a game where Aliens had 4 extremely good players, and it was over in under 5 minutes... Next game, all 4 of them grouped up on the Marine team, and we had another one sided stomp.... Third game, they all grouped up again... - When we asked them to split up and balance it out... their response was, "no, this is fun"

    Sadly many of these "experienced" players get great satisfaction in one sided games. (which is just plain pathetic) They can have 4 tech points while the opposing team can't get more than 1 RT, but as long as they're stomping and getting 20+ kills per death, they don't care how much they're ruining it for others.

    It's so bad I've reached the point where I just leave the server if I notice any of these "pubstomping" players. There are several that I encounter frequently, and I seriously doubt that any of them have seen a balanced game in a looooooong time. (if ever)

    I wish there was some sort of way to split the top players onto different teams. I think preventing the top players from being on the same team every game would greatly diminish the problem of rookie's being stomped in one sided games.


  • KalabalanaKalabalana Join Date: 2003-11-14 Member: 22859Members
    Yes, relying on the community of an online game to ethically monitor and balance it's games, shows an incredible lack of comprehension of this market/audience.
    Super Monday night combat, a game with an even higher skill ceiling died for this reason.
    New players are less likely to become interested in a game where they get stomped constantly. The thought that if they put in a few hundred hours they can compete, isn't a viable one, and it would be naive to think otherwise.
    It's a shame they are attempting to make a ranking system so late in this game's life.
    What's worse is that I haven't seen the in-game scoring touched, which indicates the current understanding with which play data is being handled. It's really unfortunate seeing games hurt because the developers are unable to address/recognize/value the importance of quality in fair team play.
  • amoralamoral Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177250Members
    Kalabalana wrote: »
    Yes, relying on the community of an online game to ethically monitor and balance it's games, shows an incredible lack of comprehension of this market/audience.
    Super Monday night combat, a game with an even higher skill ceiling died for this reason.
    New players are less likely to become interested in a game where they get stomped constantly. The thought that if they put in a few hundred hours they can compete, isn't a viable one, and it would be naive to think otherwise.
    It's a shame they are attempting to make a ranking system so late in this game's life.
    What's worse is that I haven't seen the in-game scoring touched, which indicates the current understanding with which play data is being handled. It's really unfortunate seeing games hurt because the developers are unable to address/recognize/value the importance of quality in fair team play.

    scoring has undergone a lot of changes actually. the assist system being one of the big ones
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