Upcoming matchmaking system

dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
I have a question @UWE

How is the upcoming matchmaking affect the current community based server structure?
Are these matchmaking servers hosted by UWE?

There many admins like me who spend a lot of money for hosting servers.
Im doing this since 2,5 years now for example.
If players only use the matchmaking system this would be a slap in the face for every admin out there.

So how is UWE going to handle this?
And why should community admins continue to spend money for empty servers?
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Comments

  • tallhotblondetallhotblonde Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174770Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2013
    MoFo wrote: »
    With any luck they'll leave the current community server structure and browser alone.

    Matchmaking is an abomination that doesn't work unless you have a HUGE pool of players to draw from (like consoles do, and even then it has it's problems) - With the extremely small community that NS2 has there is virtually zero chance of matchmaking working effectively. - They are wasting their time.

    I say give it a week after it's released, and those who try it will gladly be flocking back to the server browser and rented servers.

    If they actually try to force us to use this garbage (by removing the browser) NS2 will be completely dead within days.

    Err, i doubt its the sort of matchmaking your thinking of. I think Its more of a Gather system like the one on the ensl website, just built into the game. Enabling everyone to join into a organised 6v6 game - The way ns2 is meant to be played.
    Defiantly not a waste of time and its actually one of the most anticipated features to come to ns2, It is the best thing they can do to bridge the gap between competitive and public.


    So, back to OP's point, it would be interesting to hear the ins-n-outs of the way its going to work!
  • driestdriest Germany Join Date: 2013-02-21 Member: 183251Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Yeah, like described in the original news post by hugh this is going to be a gather/league integration into the game, not some crap like cs:go ;)
  • shriikeshriike Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184461Members
    MoFo wrote: »
    With any luck they'll leave the current community server structure and browser alone.

    Matchmaking is an abomination that doesn't work unless you have a HUGE pool of players to draw from (like consoles do, and even then it has it's problems) - With the extremely small community that NS2 has there is virtually zero chance of matchmaking working effectively. - They are wasting their time.

    I say give it a week after it's released, and those who try it will gladly be flocking back to the server browser and rented servers.

    If they actually try to force us to use this garbage (by removing the browser) NS2 will be completely dead within days.
    I disagree. Most casual players don't stay with this game because they feel like they aren't working towards anything. They need some reason to invest their time into this game. I'm not sure how sabot is going to work, but if it involves an ELO style system with world ranking, we should see an increase in players.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    matchmaking is bad, but elo ranking is good - every pub server should be equipped with an elo ranking skill balance option/vote.

    it's too much hassle to balance the teams manually, and some people forcably pick the stronger team because they'd rather caress their ego than have a good, fair and challenging game.
  • xnorxnor Join Date: 2013-09-06 Member: 187916Members, Reinforced - Gold
    edited October 2013
    Really? ELO is good? REALLY?

    Out of like 10 recent messed up ELO games I played only 1 was not grossly imbalanced.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    It's good in theory, but requires a big pool of players.
  • GhoulofGSG9GhoulofGSG9 Join Date: 2013-03-31 Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    It's good in theory, but requires a big pool of players.

    A good Elo system needs to track at least 60% of all games, sadly ns2stats e.g only covers like 20% atm.
  • blackpiranhablackpiranha Germany Join Date: 2003-03-11 Member: 14375Members, Constellation
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    xnor wrote: »
    Really? ELO is good? REALLY?

    Out of like 10 recent messed up ELO games I played only 1 was not grossly imbalanced.


    ELO is the best reasonably implementable (ie not omnipotent) matchmaking system that I've seen. Your problem isn't with ELO, but with your expectations from a simple matchmaking system.

    Like any matchmaking, ELO requires a huge playerbase to be effective.
  • Cannon_FodderAUSCannon_FodderAUS Brisbane, AU Join Date: 2013-06-23 Member: 185664Members, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    I would be happy with a decent random teams based on score of last round or overall user stats (like Hive). I think trying to work in global match making will be hard to work due to 1. the low player base, and 2. people have their favorite servers now, and play with their usual crowd of people. And I think forcing them to play with strangers isn't really the way to build up a community. For example, I am from Australia, and usually the Monash server(s) are where I play (they have the most people). There are regulars on the server that you know after playing for a while. I also play on the US servers (genally LuckyFKers if I can get on (usually a friendly bunch). I wouldn't want to be shunted to a server where I don't know anyone.

    Lastly, whilst I appreciate the game is designed to play 6v6 for the ultimate test in skill and tension. I very much enjoy my pubs of 8v8 or 9v9. God forbid the 20 players servers are fun too. So, please don't take anything away. Just give us more choice.
  • xnorxnor Join Date: 2013-09-06 Member: 187916Members, Reinforced - Gold
    edited October 2013
    GORGEous wrote: »
    ELO is the best reasonably implementable (ie not omnipotent) matchmaking system that I've seen. Your problem isn't with ELO, but with your expectations from a simple matchmaking system.

    Like any matchmaking, ELO requires a huge playerbase to be effective.

    Sorry but I can just /facepalm.
    Using an unmodified version of the ELO formula that was designed for chess, which is a 1vs1 game and also has a chance of draw, for something like NS2 is ludicrous.
    Just basing the rating on round outcomes alone is a very bad choice. I can suck at the game and sit there almost afk and win a game, or fight to the finish and lose a game. Also, I'm not sure giving newbies a default rating of 1500 is sane.

    Huge playerbase wouldn't change anything. You don't have access to the playerbase when setting up the round - again, this is not chess nor is there a matchmaking system .. yet. You only have access to a couple of randoms plus maybe some regulars on a given server. Even if you had, it would still suck because it takes quite a few played rounds for the rating to converge on your win:loss ratio (yes, win:loss, not skill). But with a very low chance of there being a fair, balanced round the algorithm probably messes ratings more up than you can imagine.

    The only way I can see ELO "working" is due to random chance or a high number of skilled regulars on a server. So tbh I'd rather see a proper random function...
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Would work for servers with less players, eg. would probably work for 6v6, 8v8 is a maybe, 12v12 would be a no though.
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    ELO is a generic kind of system. I consider weighted ELOs using team averages to be under the umbrella of "ELO."

    And what would else would you weight ratings on aside from simple win/loss? Any other weighting, as per kills or damage done or healing done or any of these per minute are going to introduce heavy biases. They also simply aren't comparable over varying game sizes (ie getting 50 kills in a 12v12 is a lot easier than 50 kills in a 6v6 in the same timeframe) and aren't comparable over varying game lengths (ie getting 5000 player damage per minute is a lot easier when you spent 30 of the 40 minutes shooting onos when compared to just shooting skulks).

    In fact, I think weighted team-based ELO (as I call it) is the best matchmaking system. It works by taking your team's average skill (Ts) and the opposing team's average skill (Os). Then it predicts a winner/loser based on the difference in average team skills. If Ts > Os and Ts wins -> smaller point gain for Ts players and smaller point loss for Os players. That's simple team based ELO. The weighted part can be used to allocate points or minimize gains by using the variance of the respective teams and comparing them with the Player's skill. This can be used to prevent high ranked players from gaining any points by beating teams far weaker than them, even if the average team skills are somewhat even (ie stops pros from pubstomping rookie servers and constantly accruing skill.... as is a problem in our current hive's stats ranking system). I could pound out specific formulas and numbers if so inclined, but I'm really not interested in mathing out something which nobody will use.

    Weighted team-based ELO is relatively simple and it's not arbitrary. That means that it doesn't care about game sizes or player roles. If you think player roles should be accounted for, then please explain how you will normalize whatever metric you determine (kdr, pdmg, sdmg, healing, score, etc) such that it does not vary across the player count and game time spectrum. Anything you come up with is going to be extremely subjective and only an effective indicator of skill in a specific circumstance. You can try to best-fit it, but it will still be arbitrary.

    Also, apparently it is "Elo" because it is named after Arpad Elo. I don't feel like editing the 15 uses in this post.
  • bERt0rbERt0r Join Date: 2005-03-23 Member: 46181Members
    @xnor Then better keep facepalming. If your presence on your team somehow manages to consistently win rounds even though you only stand around afk, you may be some incredible good luck mascot and deserve your elo. The starting elo value of new players is also totally irrelevant. I pity da fool.

  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    edited October 2013
    xnor wrote: »
    Huge playerbase wouldn't change anything. You don't have access to the playerbase when setting up the round - again, this is not chess nor is there a matchmaking system .. yet. You only have access to a couple of randoms plus maybe some regulars on a given server. Even if you had, it would still suck because it takes quite a few played rounds for the rating to converge on your win:loss ratio (yes, win:loss, not skill). But with a very low chance of there being a fair, balanced round the algorithm probably messes ratings more up than you can imagine.

    The only way I can see ELO "working" is due to random chance or a high number of skilled regulars on a server. So tbh I'd rather see a proper random function...

    Huge playerbases are pretty much the one and only requirement in any matchmaking system. Mediocore systems will still work given a large enough pool of players to pick from. If you ever notice matchmaking systems people talk about in a good way..... they're all games with huge player bases.

    If you're talking about splitting teams on a single server then I think that's a rather impossible task. Systems like these just don't work with such a small pool of players. Shine administration has a bunch of random-based options and none of them are much better than just allowing players to stack whatever they want. I'd think altruistic captains picking teams is probably the best matchmaking system for a small group of players, but that's not very likely to happen. And even with altruistic captains picking teams (ie reddit pugs, map testing games, or the few times I've seen this in the wild), you still wind up with frequent one sided victories.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Agree with gorgeous, won't have MUCH (some though) effect on randoming a server, but if it's used for MATCH MAKING then with a big player pool elo would work just fine.
    Also isn't the starting value 1200? Or is that just in LoL?
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Elo starting value can be whatever you want it to be. It's just arbitrary based on probabilities of winning. I think the principles behind Elo can be applied to rating systems without strictly adhering to chess's point scheme. Perhaps "modified Elo" is a more accurate name for what I'm thinking about.

    It doesn't really have to be a net zero some thing either. You could start it at 0 and never go negative if you wanted. I don't think that would still be a true Elo rating, but you can apply the same principles of probability and rating gain/loss.
  • AceDauntlessAceDauntless Join Date: 2013-05-16 Member: 185253Members, Reinforced - Gold
    I'd really love to hear how this is going to work, I feel like the wait times are going to be insane.

    At any given time there's really only 200 or so people playing in my area, and how many want to play comp 6v6? Is matchmaking ONLY comp 6v6? Will individual skill matter at all in pubs?

    Honestly I don't really think the game needs this right now, and with the current playerbase I don't really see it working out. But I'd love to be proven wrong.
  • kalakujakalakuja Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159045Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter
    Fixed ques would work best for this game. Matchmaking matches start only on the hour or every 30min on busy hours/ high population.
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    @dePARA
    I would take a guess and say since it uses the hive that the match making system will use the same servers that get white listed for hive. Servers get whitelisted after, I believe, 50 matches with out any mods.
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Was there confirmation that match making was actually being worked on anywhere?
    Seems like a waste of time to me. Is anyone going to seriously sit in a lobby and wait? The time to get into a game is already high, how does match making shorten it?

    Would be better and more productive to refine the skill rating server browser column, and get quick join to take the skill ratings into account.
  • G1RG1R Join Date: 2012-08-23 Member: 156275Members
    I'd def. play a SOMEWHAT organized 6on6 match via matchmaking. I stopped playing NS2 ( once again...), cuz playing on those 24 slot public servers isnt fun at all. The real problem i see: NS2 is highly depending on good teamplay ..more than CS or anything, where you can carry on your own. Hopefully a 6on6 MM system will attract more "serious" people ...
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Scorebased random would be awesome. I don't really want to play with random people, I want to play with people I already know and teams that are quick to form and less likely to be stacked.
  • tummy_yummytummy_yummy Join Date: 2013-05-01 Member: 185073Members, Reinforced - Gold, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Score-based random would be really nice!
  • tallhotblondetallhotblonde Join Date: 2012-12-11 Member: 174770Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    I don't think finding 12 guys globally who want to play a 6v6 out of 600 concurrent players will be very difficult. All the competitive players will play this instead of pub stomping.

    But again @hugh we would love to hear some juicy gossip on your views of what's important and what's achievable. This is the only thing keeping me interested in long term ns2 to be brutally honest :/ spill some beans already!
  • MoFoMoFo Join Date: 2013-09-09 Member: 188047Members
    This thread is making me worry they'll remove the browser...

    Some info about it and exactly what is changing would really be nice.
  • AsranielAsraniel Join Date: 2002-06-03 Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    why would you even think that the browser would get removed? i have no idea where such an idea could come from
  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members
    edited October 2013
    I don't think finding 12 guys globally who want to play a 6v6 out of 600 concurrent players will be very difficult. All the competitive players will play this instead of pub stomping.

    But again @hugh we would love to hear some juicy gossip on your views of what's important and what's achievable. This is the only thing keeping me interested in long term ns2 to be brutally honest :/ spill some beans already!

    I don't see 20+ players suddenly wanting to play 6v6, and I never notice many populated 12 player servers, but they might all be passworded. edit: If you look at a selection of players on http://hive.naturalselection2.com/ their game history shows that they like to play on only a handful of servers. Typical MM will stop that happening.

    I would like to see just a more advanced "vote random teams" but that takes into account skill/winrate and possibly locks players who want to stay together + gives people a favoured team choice.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    It's good in theory, but requires a big pool of players.

    A good Elo system needs to track at least 60% of all games, sadly ns2stats e.g only covers like 20% atm.

    it's a bit of luck that sponitor covers 100% of games then, isn't it.

    UWE has the tools to make this work, it doesn't have to be done through a 3rd party.
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