Skill Stacked Teams is Killing NS2

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Comments

  • RedSwordRedSword Join Date: 2006-12-07 Member: 58947Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Achilles wrote: »
    I literally built a server today from 0 people to 24, and watched it fall back to 0 within 2 hours due to players skill stacking every game for 6 rounds. It's sickening and frustrating. And this has become a daily thing, maybe not to this extreme, but it is a consistent and constant issue daily!

    Then use team balance plugin.
  • Mac1OManMac1OMan Join Date: 2004-10-29 Member: 32510Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2013
    At least all I see is confirmation, but no other solution than admins babysitting. I trully believe that using K:D as a balance is a good place to start.
    RedSword wrote: »
    [Then use team balance plugin.
    There is no team balance plugin that I can find when searching for it on workshop.
  • DavilDavil Florida, USA Join Date: 2012-08-14 Member: 155602Members, Constellation
    There aren't too many games I play where people maliciously stack teams just to be dicks. I prefer games where people of even skills are each side and the games can last a while and maybe go back and forth. But at the same time if you're a decent player and you keep ending up on a team that is pretty clueless against 1 or more players that do have some idea how to play it can get very frustrating because you just want to at least have a chance to win one game. So like scardy said, generally good admins make things better as does picking team captains and that kind of junk. Wouldn't mind if someone made a mod that allowed someone to be designated as comm ahead of time and then they could pick teams back and forth with the other comm. Random works sometimes too.
  • JuCCiJuCCi Join Date: 2011-08-08 Member: 114961Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Ive seen people cry about stacks when 1 comp. player joins marines over and over.... and if 2 join its a mega stack..... I am sorry but its not really always stacked. It's the fact that in pub's no one really understands the game. So when you get 2 guys that work as a team (oh shit i said team....) they rape the other team.
  • Mac1OManMac1OMan Join Date: 2004-10-29 Member: 32510Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Davil wrote: »
    Random works sometimes too.
    Sometimes... and atleast nobody can be put to blame for the stacks, that is if you get enough votes for a force random... which is actually quite hard to obtain.
    JuCCi wrote: »
    Ive seen people cry about stacks when 1 comp. player joins marines over and over.... and if 2 join its a mega stack..... I am sorry but its not really always stacked. It's the fact that in pub's no one really understands the game. So when you get 2 guys that work as a team (oh shit i said team....) they rape the other team.
    Jucci you are talking about something completely different. I am talking about 2+ players jumping into a server together, typically wearing the same tag, and being marines 4+ games when repeatedly asked to split up to help balance the game play.

    I've seen these same skilled players heckle and spawn kill newer players until they quit to get their satisfaction out of it.
  • OtsOts Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Members, Constellation
    Either get better, or play with friends and antistack. You're not solving anything by this topic, or with random 'solutions'. Public is public for the obvious reason that anyone can choose to play whatever they want, only way to counter that is by administrative control on a specific server, or to only play in competitive matches.
  • Mac1OManMac1OMan Join Date: 2004-10-29 Member: 32510Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2013
    Ots wrote: »
    Either get better, or play with friends and antistack. You're not solving anything by this topic, or with random 'solutions'. Public is public for the obvious reason that anyone can choose to play whatever they want, only way to counter that is by administrative control on a specific server, or to only play in competitive matches.
    Your post isn't helping anything, why bother posting. There is nothing random about it. Their was atleast an attempt to fix this issue in NS1, and it worked quite well. I have proposed a similair solution for NS2.

    The positive response in this topic has confirmed that this is an issue.
  • OtsOts Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Members, Constellation
    Colt, i applaud your choice of words and interest to warrant this topic with the reply you did.
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
    On the topic side, I'm interested for the que system. Hope it's fantastic as I love playing this game competitive
  • MasterBatMasterBat Join Date: 2013-09-30 Member: 188533Members
    edited October 2013
    Mac1OMan wrote: »
    The pro players seem to be the rudest and most stubborn players in the community.

    I think that's the problem. Most 'pro players' are VERY rude and unwelcoming. When I command and tell people to split there's always this one guy doing his own thing and killing everything by himself, then bitches about not getting medpack'd.

    So I defend myself by saying, "Well why don't you get in the chair then?" They get pissed off and leave, because they only care about shooting/killing shit. I can handle the bitching, but I can't imagine how infinitely frustrating it is for a newcomer who is trying to get into commanding. I've had several players outright insult me during the game even when they can't step up their own game.

    I know when a loss is my fault and I outright say it is when it is. But when a pro player does their own thing like hiding in vents and bitching about medpacks, I'll just tell you to shut the fuck up and get in line. If you're better than the entire server, play as a fucking commander.

    I don't pay attention to lone wolves. Period.

    I think these players are the worst, though. Pros who think their entitled to everything just because they are so high up and don't play as a comm because "I'm better on the ground". Well don't join a green server if you want a good comm =)

    Whatever happened to being a FRIENDLY AND WELCOMING COMMUNITY?
  • OtsOts Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Members, Constellation
    MasterBat wrote: »
    Mac1OMan wrote: »
    The pro players seem to be the rudest and most stubborn players in the community.

    I think that's the problem. Most 'pro players' are VERY rude and unwelcoming. When I command and tell people to split there's always this one guy doing his own thing and killing everything by himself, then bitches about not getting medpack'd.

    So I defend myself by saying, "Well why don't you get in the chair then?" They get pissed off and leave, because they only care about shooting/killing shit. I can handle the bitching, but I can't imagine how infinitely frustrating it is for a newcomer who is trying to get into commanding. I've had several recruits outright insult me during the game even when they can't step up their own game.

    I know when a game is my fault and I outright say it is when it is. But when a pro player does their own thing like hiding in vents and bitching about medpacks, I'll just tell you to shut the fuck up and get in line. If you're better than the entire server, play as a fucking commander.

    I don't pay attention to lone wolves. Period.

    I think these players are the worst, though. Pros who think their entitled to everything just because they are so high up and don't play as a comm because "I'm better on the ground". Well don't join a green server if you want a good comm =)

    Whatever happened to being a FRIENDLY AND WELCOMING COMMUNITY?
    /pat

    Welcome to the internet, :). Same effect as with stacking, you cant promote something without having control over it. Be it game balance or attitude.
  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Bicsum wrote: »
    I think a big part of the problem is that "pro" players know that is way easier to win as marine on public servers. Many of them don't stack with voice friends, they just stack marines because they know alien play sucks without teamplay and often leads to frustration.

    Isn't it the other way around? You need more teamplay as marine then aliens do. It's only easy as marine if aliens are astrociously bad, like floor skulks.
  • AchillesAchilles Join Date: 2013-04-20 Member: 184907Members
    Look at that post ^ but a good counter-argument.

    I count myself a very average player, who occasionally loses control of their emotions and lashes out in-game at what is either an extraordinary player or a hacker. I'll admit it, and I'm not proud of it, but fiercely competitive games like NS2 can cause an intense onslaught of feels, especially if you like to win and feel like you can't learn from losing.

    I think this topic is exaggerated by the insane disparity of skill between low-average players and the higher level players. Everyone in a server can identify this latter group immediately. They literally are just that good, and though not unique to online games at all, I play a lot of different games, and NS2 feels Quake 2-like in the absolutely ridiculous skill levels that people can (fairly) achieve. When you are that good, you WILL have a certain responsibility since your actions can swing the game wildly one way or another. Most generally fair players will play their best, but pay attention to the situation and take appropriate action if they notice they're totally wiping the other team.

    I mean, I'm typically in the top quarter of the scoreboard, and sometimes even on top, but not only do I not want to mercilessly slaughter players of lesser skill, I don't have fun doing this. It's not entertaining, it's not satisfying, it's bullshit, and I know it, and we all know that these other players know it.

    What's really an issue is the core behavior of said players: some are great and recognize their impact on the game, sometimes taking efforts to balance this, but others are simply immature and vindictive, and thrive on this domination of the lesser-skilled. It's obvious when this happens, and it's a definite problem. It would still be a problem with a bigger community, but there would be more ways around it. As it stands now, these freak super-players will show up on any server (rookie included) at any time, and start annihilating people. Rookie servers are a total joke, and I cringe when poor rookies actually wind up in these noob farms. Only the most dedicated would "L2P" from that non-stop frustration.

    Usually admins are the solution, or a public votekick system (which can be easily abused to nightmare levels) but I feel that the OP's point still stands. "Stacked" teams and absolutely nuts skill differences are a problem that most devs recognize and try their hardest to avoid, because the end-result is the same: your playing experience sucks. In most cases, it isn't even their fault anyway. We all understand that online games will be difficult and some time spent will be required to excel at any game, but there's only so much 'paying your dues' that new players will tolerate, and how this is experienced can effect them in a massive way. It can mean the difference between continuing to play, knowing that with time and practice you too will be happily shotgunning skulks in the face, or throwing up your hands because you think there's no way you can ever even approach these levels.

    NS2 just feels old-school. Mercenary-style no rules, if you suck, bummer bro, better leave. In today's gaming landscape, that doesn't fly anymore. There are 100 other games a lot more friendly than NS2 offering similar 'shoot the bad guy' experiences without the insane dedication required to improve. Players can, and will, and will continue, to leave for these countless other offerings. When you offer something as unique as NS, you need to ease players into the changes and the experience. You need to invite them along, not crush them repeatedly while offering few solutions or help to balance things in-game.

    Developers like UWE just can't afford to ignore this. It will (and already has, no doubt) cost them players they don't have. It happens in every game with matchmaking, and most of the dev teams constantly work on it.

    Sorry, even more here, but maybe a solution would be to have forum topics like these, though trying to avoid any harsh language, and just raise awareness of skill levels. A lot of high-level players will respond to communication, and don't want to be the ramboing jerk ruining the server. If players would communicate more, I'm sure a lot of grief could be avoided and teams may be better balanced. This should be the standard response if it's becoming a problem, and admins or server action taken only as a last resort.

    TEXT WALL OF DOOM
  • MasterBatMasterBat Join Date: 2013-09-30 Member: 188533Members
    Yep, sorry for the rant though.

    I'm just pointing out that if there is any reason for a player count decline, the community is part of what's contributing to it. Also, I've played many stacked games and I'll tell you that many of these pro players rarely ever use a mike. It seems they tend to care about K:D ratio than team balance, because it makes them look good and have a large e-peen.

    I might be making broad generalizations, but I speak from experience. It feels like the community doesn't care about the game anymore and are just there to have fun while the game lasts, uncaring about balanced teams.

    The point of the post is that Stacking is killing the fun for everyone. We play games for fun and not so sadists can have their fix on the noobies, there is a difference between a good challenge and complete masochism.
  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Uh, oh, on my servers there is always the option to vote for ELO/Skill based teams if people don't want 'stacked' teams.
    There are other servers with this option too, so I don't see a problem if you choose such as server. In the worst case, you can always setup your own if none is available in your region.


    Besides, there are serveral reasons to why this is happening.


    First, people prefer to play with people they know ("friends"), usually because you get along better and it is more fun.

    Second, it's much more fun in a communicative game to play with people that communicate and usually that's the people that are at least avarage in terms of skill.

    Thirly, it's also more fun to play with a team that KNOWS what it does, not an other team that plays solo mode and also has no understanding of the game in general - and usually even worse, refuse to listen as well.
    There are so many countless examples that makes it annoying, and it makes it frustrating to play with such a team; consequently, you'd rather play with people that have some sense (and though you might call them skilled, they don't have to be extraordinaly good in terms of "K/D"). It really starts with the most simplest of things like nobody welding each other - I've played on teams with 8 marines where tops 2 had a welder and I actually ask the coms fora MAC in base reguarily, because it's often (sadly) the only place where I can replenish my armor.
    Other examples include just ... rookie-style behaviour, like the complete inability to priorize - people biting RTs next to a PG for example.
    It's not much fun to play with a team that has no clue what they do for skilled people and you'd rather stick to people who KNOW what they do; NS2 is a game that really shines when everyone works together, and you're not getting that if you're joining the "bad" team.


    Also I think that Symbol = "Skill" ludicrous; it shows that you've donated, or otherwise contributed to the community. Yes, mostly people that have been around for a while and have some basic understanding of the game do that, but that doesn't make anyone extraordinarily skilled. Plently of avarage or bad "symbol" players around.


    As for rookie servers, I think it is not good behaviour for good people to join there. Though it depends, if you read that truely to what it says, i.e. rookie friendly, it would just mean the server is friendly for new players. Not that no good players are allowed, unless the server actually explicitly states that is for below-avarage, new players.
    But again, this boils down to the server. Play on one that suits you.
  • OtsOts Join Date: 2003-07-30 Member: 18577Members, Constellation
    There's nothing wrong with a wall of text, aslong as there's a clear thought behind and it's written as yours is.

    In majority of cases, the only thing you can really do is lead by example. Do what you want done to you, if you act like a jerk others will be a jerk to you. If someone is a jerk to you, don't get sucked into it and continue the cycle. Being informed is really the only way, and the only way to accomplish that is by someone else informing you. If your goal is to inform players to do something, you need to be doing it on the server that they are playing, ingame. There is a multitude of players who do not care, now, or ever to read forums like this. Let alone do as intructed on a 'random' post.

    It's always nice to discuss things, but that doesn't mean they are being resolved.
  • SjNSjN Join Date: 2003-01-07 Member: 11983Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    UWE had to add matchmaking in the first DLC... or at least the 2nd DLC.. but they were too busy making the female marine and "balancing" the game by adjusting numbers. Most players who have brains already quit NS2. Players with half a brain are still sitting on this forum and complaining while UWE are busy planning the super tournament of a dying game.

    I can't find a better game than NS2, but unfortunately NS2 in the current state feels more broken than it was several months ago. I don't like the direction this game has taken. Hopefully UWE will pick up the broken pieces and make a come back.
  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    edited October 2013
    Omega_K2 wrote: »
    Bicsum wrote: »
    I think a big part of the problem is that "pro" players know that is way easier to win as marine on public servers. Many of them don't stack with voice friends, they just stack marines because they know alien play sucks without teamplay and often leads to frustration.

    Isn't it the other way around? You need more teamplay as marine then aliens do. It's only easy as marine if aliens are astrociously bad, like floor skulks.

    No, it doesn't matter much if the skulk is good or bad, 1 shotgun blast kill you and you just have to fight in teams. And with the new weaker fade, it's no longer able to win the game "alone" like it used to be, because you just need the other life forms to achieve anything. Preferably with drifter support.

    As marine you need a shotgun, some meds and maybe a jetpack later into the game and you are able to kill every life forms, harvesters, hives, uprades and rebuild your own buildings. It is all in your hands. You don't need to have good players to have basic team play. All you have to do is to kill life forms and res towers or at least hold your own rts until you outtech the aliens and siege their hive.

    All in all you have way more control over the outcome of a match in a usual pub.
  • PaLaGiPaLaGi Join Date: 2008-01-03 Member: 63331Members, Constellation
    Mac1OMan wrote: »
    I will say that while you come back with a lot of fine points, a lot of them you are trying to defend everyone out there that you label "competitive" when those points clearly don't apply to the specific people I'm talking about. I have to generalize this group of players somehow, and that's the best way I can. I'm not saying all of you are like this, but I am saying these specific people are what is causing the problem.

    So you saying it's a small subset of the competitive community (which is already very small amount of the entire pubbing player base) that is the overwhelming cause of bad games on the majority of pub servers the majority of the time. OK got it.
  • Mac1OManMac1OMan Join Date: 2004-10-29 Member: 32510Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2013
    PaLaGi wrote: »
    So you saying it's a small subset of the competitive community (which is already very small amount of the entire pubbing player base) that is the overwhelming cause of bad games on the majority of pub servers the majority of the time. OK got it.
    I didn't say that either. I just didn't mean to say every single one. But a good majority of the competitive players I've seen are in many ways a problem for this game more than a helpful part of it. Constantly bitter, and anytime there is a new player instead of helping them they whine about them not being knowledgeable.

    This is going off the topic though so please discontinue your derailing.

    What I don't understand is the implementation of a skill bar next to the server, but not for each individual player. It would be helpful if we could actually visibly see who is what based off of stats while in the server. This is one thing that needs to be done to better identify visually which team is stacked.
  • ColtColtColtColt Join Date: 2012-06-27 Member: 153707Members
    Mac1OMan wrote: »
    This is going off the topic though so please discontinue your derailing.

    de·rail
    dēˈrāl/
    verb: derail; 3rd person present: derails; past tense: derailed; past participle: derailed; gerund or present participle: derailing

    - obstruct (a process) by diverting it from its intended course.
    "the plot is seen by some as an attempt to derail the negotiations"
    Mac1OMan wrote: »
    Getting pretty tired of the best players in a server jumping on one team with their buddies.
    Mac1OMan wrote: »
    Seems like the pro players only care about two things, and that's their ratio and winning. As soon as they start losing 50% of the time they leave.
    Mac1OMan wrote: »
    The pro players seem to be the rudest and most stubborn players in the community.
    Mac1OMan wrote: »
    Honestly I don't have faith in the common man

    You set the course, because you created the thread. You created a toxic, barb-ridden rant about how much you feel the "pro players" destroy your gaming environment. It isn't derailment for people to respond in like manner to your childish, petty complaints that the game developers owe you a forced-down-everyones-throat version of "Balance", which you followed with half-baked threats and ultimatums about how you and your 7 frriends (which clearly must represent the NS2 community as a general whole) are going to leave if your perceived issues aren't resolved.

    You make a matress of razorblades, you should understand why you end up cut.

    Far as i'm concerned, people like you are a far worse factor in a community than people who embrace the game at its' highest form and strive to play actively, participate in the game actively, and ultimately determine the purest path of balance. You would rather take your incredibly skewed prejudices against people who play better than you and use them as some baseline for implementing a set of policies designed to cut down and mitigate other people's enjoyment.

    Wait. That's what you claim Competitive players are doing. Interesting how your ultimate goal is an out-of-game method of achieving the exact same, but reversed, ruination of another person's perceived fun.


    Don't let the door hit you on the way out.
    Say hi to BattleField 4 and EA for me.

  • Mac1OManMac1OMan Join Date: 2004-10-29 Member: 32510Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2013
    I really don't care about my grammer, not sure why you waste your time with it. This isnt a term paper jackass. Thanks for the copy paste of a dictionary though... you must be really smart lol

    How about you do something productive with yourself instead of defending players that I have described as blatantly trying to ruin the game for newer players. You telling people to leave isn't any more productive. I gave you your little attention, now your just making yourself look like a pompous prick... its time to move on pal i think you've had enough lol...
  • JektJekt Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143714Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    How about you do something productive with yourself instead of defending players that I have described as blatantly trying to ruin the game for newer players. You telling people to leave isn't any more productive. I gave you your little attention, now your just making yourself look like a pompous prick... its time to move on pal i think you've had enough lol...

    ... likewise?
  • GhoulofGSG9GhoulofGSG9 Join Date: 2013-03-31 Member: 184566Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Supporter, Pistachionauts
    edited October 2013
    Imho we should wait for uwe matchmaking system before we continue to discuss about this topic, atm most server offer with elo/ score / kd based voterandom a good way to avoid stacking as much as posible.
  • Mac1OManMac1OMan Join Date: 2004-10-29 Member: 32510Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited October 2013
    Jekt wrote: »
    ... likewise?
    I'd say so. My discussion was on ways of improving this issue. If people want to go off topic then that's on them...

    I'd like to see a bar for each player, if they can create a bar based on who is on the server.
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members
    Well over half of the people who commented in this thread play competitive despite them accounting for maybe around 10%, if that, of the community.

    Tough to gauge representative responses then.
  • ColtColtColtColt Join Date: 2012-06-27 Member: 153707Members
    edited October 2013
    Mac1OMan wrote: »
    I'd say so. My discussion was on ways of improving this issue.

    Except that it wasn't. You spent the better part of your entire post bashing another party and issuing threats and ultimatums to the developers about your continued patronage.

    The quote on derailment was because you entirely misused the word; no one derailed anything, people read what you posted and responded in kind.

    I guess i'll stop posting in here because it's like having a discussion with a brick wall.

    Enjoy your incredibly myopic view of the community and your short-lived "I'm leaving" empathy (if you even get any).

    -Colt
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