Cysting into locker through wall.

SolaritySolarity Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
in NS2 General Discussion
Is this a bug or is it an exploit when someone drops a cyst on the other side of the wall in locker room and drops whips on the creep that comes under the floor? Someone did this on a map and I quit in disgust.

-Solarity
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  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited October 2013
    Personally, I'd say no. If they managed to cyst from that little bit of infestation peeking through the wall, that'd be an exploit.
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  • SolaritySolarity Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I have also seen the infestation attack the power node through the wall for that same power node.
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  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think this is more of a general bug, you can cyst though many walls. Make it worse if you echo whips to the other side.
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  • dragonmithdragonmith Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182817Members, Reinforced - Diamond
    If you think about it, it makes sense realistically, maybe the infestation goes through the petty wiring/ whatever in the wall.

    From a balance perceptive, infestation is more of a problem for aliens than for marines. This doesn't really impact much, at least nothing extremely bad bad I can think of...
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  • SolaritySolarity Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2013
    The echo'ing of whips is what I am talking about. The thing about cysts is that they are suppose to be vulnerable. Going under a box is one thing, but a distance of 60ft LoS is a bit much. The funny thing is there was only a slither of visible creep, but he was able to deploy 4 or 5 whips. They do have contamination for a end game reasons, though as we were holding 3 tech points and 4 RTs, it was no where near the turtle phase. Cysting into a base has its draw backs of weak cysts that take time to mature and spread infestation. With contamination you have a giant thing that is easily visible only obtainable only in late game. Cysting through the wall has no counter and is even more powerful than contamination.

    Could I please get input from devs if cysting through walls is as intended or is this a bug that they are trying to work on/patch. When the power node is taken down to low hp.
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  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    That has to be a bug for sure. @Hugh!
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  • casan0vaxcasan0vax Cloverfield, USA Join Date: 2012-11-04 Member: 166663Members, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Echoing whips on through-wall infestation is a bug, but it's technically not illegal--even in the eyes of NSL.

    Unfortunately, it's just a "have to live with it until it's fixed" kind of thing :/
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  • KrovakonKrovakon Join Date: 2012-05-20 Member: 152332Members
    Solarity wrote: »
    Cysting through the wall has no counter and is even more powerful than contamination.
    Arcs. throw down an obs if you need.

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  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    Personally the one that bugs me as much or sometimes more than creep through walls is gorge tunnels in a vent or other area. If the part of that map a gorge tunnel is being built on can't have anything dropped there from either comm (craigs, whips, phase gates) then the tunnel shouldn't be there either. Hydras or clogs, sure, let the gorge place them anywhere in the map but a transport device should only go in areas where a commander would also have the same ability to place them.

    OR

    Call it balance and give the alien comm the ability to cyst through these.
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  • Soul_RiderSoul_Rider Mod Bean Join Date: 2004-06-19 Member: 29388Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    There is no simple way to fix this. It has been a problem since early Beta, but was much worse then. The problem normally occurs when there is not enough space between rooms, the infestation jumps over the gap.

    The issue is much less severe than it used to be, but short of adding some sort of occlusion type that blocks infestations spread, and requiring mappers to use it, there is not a lot that can be done, although mappers can avoid it by placing rooms further apart.

    The other thing to point out, is while you can only see a slither of infestation, generally the usable area is a little bit bigger than the textured area.
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  • crymearivercrymeariver Join Date: 2013-08-29 Member: 187185Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    While for most situations this is usually a non-issue it can be rather game-breaking if it is actually used when possible. I was in the game the OP mentions and it instantly took the game from "Ok marines, lets hold our 3 TPs and pick off some lifeforms while we tech up then push" to "gg". While I don't think we were doing particularly well we had secured very good map position and denied the aliens any chance to fully tech up while we kept our phase gates secured during the potent alien mid-game. I'd like to see more priority given to fixing this if it is indeed unintentional (especially since I anticipate more of this occurring now that this thread is up) or at least a "working as intended" response from the UWE team.
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  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    It's a bug.
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  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    Bug maybe, but as far as strategies go I think it's legitimate and not at all gamebreaking. You have to place those cysts right up against the wall and well within scanner range for any reasonable obs placement. It's all very easy to counter (kill cysts, if they are persistent place a sentry) and then you consider the res and time costs and it's actually a fairly weak but interesting surprise tactic.
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  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    sotanaht wrote: »
    Bug maybe, but as far as strategies go I think it's legitimate and not at all gamebreaking. You have to place those cysts right up against the wall and well within scanner range for any reasonable obs placement. It's all very easy to counter (kill cysts, if they are persistent place a sentry) and then you consider the res and time costs and it's actually a fairly weak but interesting surprise tactic.

    I'd like to know what you do consider gamebreaking, since it was already posted that it broke that particular game from the marines POV. I was the comm and there was an obs in the power/rt corner of locker so it was picked up on the minimap. But obviously, I wasn't keeping an eye out for creep coming through the walls, although I certainly watch for cysts being placed into occupied rooms.

    As far as the res and time costs, I consider a quarter of a second and 1-5 res (depending on the amount of cysts to reach the wall from an existing area) to be extremely cheap. Then a minimal amount to echo already built whips and done. What you're saying is that I should have dropped a robo factory, a battery and 1-3 sentries on the off chance that this tactic was used?


    But to be honest, had there not been a gorge tunnel in the vent (already posted about those in this thread) to bar/locker for the quick alien rush after the whips, we probably could have recovered from just the whips. Not to mention the easy access for skulks to chew bar and cafe res nodes...
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  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    Whips aren't free, echo isn't free, and a single whip won't do shit. For the strat to work you need to be able to echo in at least 6 whips, 10 would be preferable, and you should have multiple shifts to do it in a shorter span of time just like with contaminate. That means spending 60 to 100 res on whips, less than 2 of which should already be built and you should be keeping at least one whip in base so you don't lose skulk ups. Then you spend 12-18 res on echos, another 10 on the extra shift, and then the "1-5 res on cysts". It's exactly like contaminate, except done with FAR more warning to the enemy team and is much easier to counter and can only be done on certain rooms.
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  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    whenever my team attacks locker from ballcourt as alien, I make sure to drop a tunnel on the other side of the power node wall, so it inches it down little by little.
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  • crymearivercrymeariver Join Date: 2013-08-29 Member: 187185Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    sotanaht wrote: »
    Whips aren't free, echo isn't free, and a single whip won't do shit. For the strat to work you need to be able to echo in at least 6 whips, 10 would be preferable, and you should have multiple shifts to do it in a shorter span of time just like with contaminate. That means spending 60 to 100 res on whips, less than 2 of which should already be built and you should be keeping at least one whip in base so you don't lose skulk ups. Then you spend 12-18 res on echos, another 10 on the extra shift, and then the "1-5 res on cysts". It's exactly like contaminate, except done with FAR more warning to the enemy team and is much easier to counter and can only be done on certain rooms.

    As far as I know Echo shares a global cooldown, a second shift doesn't help. Also the tactic is only easily defended if:

    1. The barely visibly infestation is noticed on the other side of the wall
    2. The alien team leaves the cyst undefended
    3. The tactic is expected
    4. The other side of the wall is not actually far away from the room it is spreading infestation too

    While not all 4 condition needs to be met a big part of why it is game breaking right now is due to it being unexpected, in my opinion. Similar to how some people made a big fuss over contaminate until comm's learned to put an ARC or two up in base when contaminate time comes or marines kept a FT handy. As Ironhorse stated, this is a bug and not intended, if this were a more popular and acceptable tactic for aliens then commanders and marine teams will begin to account for it when setting up a defensive position anywhere it is applicable it won't be that big of a deal then it is just another part of the game.

    Effectiveness of the technique aside the real question is: if there is no fix in the foreseeable future is this something the community is willing to accept as "ok" or is it and exploit to be frowned upon.

    I notice that the discussion thread on this topic over at the ENSL forum was bumped by an admin today. Conspiracy?
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  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2013
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    Infest going through walls is unbelievably stupid and buggy. Should be high priority fix.

    Legal in NSL. I don't think any of the teams are BM enough to use it though, lol.

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  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    a clear and utter bug is legal but something which can be considered strategy like 'put the tunnel in a bug vent' is considered a nono.
    Sometimes I just dont understand the folk who make the nsl rules.
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  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    sotanaht wrote: »
    Whips aren't free, echo isn't free, and a single whip won't do shit. For the strat to work you need to be able to echo in at least 6 whips, 10 would be preferable, and you should have multiple shifts to do it in a shorter span of time just like with contaminate. That means spending 60 to 100 res on whips, less than 2 of which should already be built and you should be keeping at least one whip in base so you don't lose skulk ups. Then you spend 12-18 res on echos, another 10 on the extra shift, and then the "1-5 res on cysts". It's exactly like contaminate, except done with FAR more warning to the enemy team and is much easier to counter and can only be done on certain rooms.

    For 1-5 res the potential strat of echoing in of whips would require me to set up the other stuff, or waste a marine to kill cysts for the remainder of the match.

    Did you think I meant 1-5 res to do it all? Seriously? o_O
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  • SolaritySolarity Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Holding space bar when cloaked use to be an exploit for aliens as you could run around as cloaked. It didn't mean I would use it to my advantage.

    Contamination has it's place in late game and not in mid game. They could also move the power node, which would fix the problem quickly to a wall that isn't so thin.
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  • BobRossTheBossBobRossTheBoss Join Date: 2012-12-31 Member: 176824Members
    http://www.twitch.tv/virsoul/c/2776029
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  • SolaritySolarity Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I watched the video for a little bit, it looks like whips are being played as intended.
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  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    Solarity wrote: »
    I watched the video for a little bit, it looks like whips are being played as intended.

    You have to watch the last minute :>
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  • SolaritySolarity Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Ah yeah I see it and agree very little to no creep and they can put a lot down where there is none.
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  • RicezRicez Join Date: 2013-04-13 Member: 184784Members
    The same thing happens in mineshaft, the power node in north tunnels gets killed by creep in crusher.
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  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    crymeariver wrote: »
    sotanaht wrote: »
    Whips aren't free, echo isn't free, and a single whip won't do shit. For the strat to work you need to be able to echo in at least 6 whips, 10 would be preferable, and you should have multiple shifts to do it in a shorter span of time just like with contaminate. That means spending 60 to 100 res on whips, less than 2 of which should already be built and you should be keeping at least one whip in base so you don't lose skulk ups. Then you spend 12-18 res on echos, another 10 on the extra shift, and then the "1-5 res on cysts". It's exactly like contaminate, except done with FAR more warning to the enemy team and is much easier to counter and can only be done on certain rooms.

    As far as I know Echo shares a global cooldown, a second shift doesn't help. Also the tactic is only easily defended if:

    1. The barely visibly infestation is noticed on the other side of the wall
    2. The alien team leaves the cyst undefended
    3. The tactic is expected
    4. The other side of the wall is not actually far away from the room it is spreading infestation too

    While not all 4 condition needs to be met a big part of why it is game breaking right now is due to it being unexpected, in my opinion. Similar to how some people made a big fuss over contaminate until comm's learned to put an ARC or two up in base when contaminate time comes or marines kept a FT handy. As Ironhorse stated, this is a bug and not intended, if this were a more popular and acceptable tactic for aliens then commanders and marine teams will begin to account for it when setting up a defensive position anywhere it is applicable it won't be that big of a deal then it is just another part of the game.

    Effectiveness of the technique aside the real question is: if there is no fix in the foreseeable future is this something the community is willing to accept as "ok" or is it and exploit to be frowned upon.

    I notice that the discussion thread on this topic over at the ENSL forum was bumped by an admin today. Conspiracy?

    You are looking for the red dot on your map that represents a cyst in the wrong place, NOT the infestation. If you see infestation you've already waited too long.
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  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    sotanaht wrote: »
    crymeariver wrote: »
    sotanaht wrote: »
    Whips aren't free, echo isn't free, and a single whip won't do shit. For the strat to work you need to be able to echo in at least 6 whips, 10 would be preferable, and you should have multiple shifts to do it in a shorter span of time just like with contaminate. That means spending 60 to 100 res on whips, less than 2 of which should already be built and you should be keeping at least one whip in base so you don't lose skulk ups. Then you spend 12-18 res on echos, another 10 on the extra shift, and then the "1-5 res on cysts". It's exactly like contaminate, except done with FAR more warning to the enemy team and is much easier to counter and can only be done on certain rooms.

    As far as I know Echo shares a global cooldown, a second shift doesn't help. Also the tactic is only easily defended if:

    1. The barely visibly infestation is noticed on the other side of the wall
    2. The alien team leaves the cyst undefended
    3. The tactic is expected
    4. The other side of the wall is not actually far away from the room it is spreading infestation too

    While not all 4 condition needs to be met a big part of why it is game breaking right now is due to it being unexpected, in my opinion. Similar to how some people made a big fuss over contaminate until comm's learned to put an ARC or two up in base when contaminate time comes or marines kept a FT handy. As Ironhorse stated, this is a bug and not intended, if this were a more popular and acceptable tactic for aliens then commanders and marine teams will begin to account for it when setting up a defensive position anywhere it is applicable it won't be that big of a deal then it is just another part of the game.

    Effectiveness of the technique aside the real question is: if there is no fix in the foreseeable future is this something the community is willing to accept as "ok" or is it and exploit to be frowned upon.

    I notice that the discussion thread on this topic over at the ENSL forum was bumped by an admin today. Conspiracy?

    You are looking for the red dot on your map that represents a cyst in the wrong place, NOT the infestation. If you see infestation you've already waited too long.

    So you were saying that whenever I see a alien comm spend 1-5 res to cyst in certain places I need to invest in turrets or send a marine there for the remainder of the match, just in case.

    Thanks for clarifying.
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