My list of the most problematic features / balancing in b256

RadtooRadtoo Join Date: 2012-11-06 Member: 167726Members
This:
- Skulk movement is around 20% too slow. Perhaps more. Good marines get too much damage in before you're biting them.
- Regen is around 50% too slow (I feel it was quite balanced before Sewlek re-did the game, now it is not). Smaller life forms should probably get more of a buff than big ones, though.
- Fades are still a bit too healthy, Onos still a bit too weak. (That frontal shielding skill isn't really working well against good players who cease firing when it's being used, or don't usually fire at the front in the first place).
- Crags heal units a bit too slowly. How often don't I want to return to hive to heal? Pretty rarely.
- Alien commander has a bit too much to do, overall.
- Related: Cyst networks are still too vulnerable to attack. This is, of course, also related to skulks being too slow now and thus loosing most fights when they have to rush to defend something against good players... but maybe some tweaks for grenade damage and/or flamer damage are also required to fix it.
- Aliens should be able to spawn eggs somewhere else again.
- People have started scripting 3, 5 shot salvo fire for marine pistols. This is rather unfair. Salvo fire needs to be an option or removed, fast mouse clicking isn't the way here.
- The marine commander being able to power an unpowered phase gate by skill is a terrible idea that makes small alien sneak attacks fail and small marine sneak attacks succeed - as if more of that was needed! I personally see no other real use for the skill, so it'd be good to entirely remove it.
- On some maps there are places where you can put ARCs into range of resources or hives, places that are way too easily defensible.
- The defensive buildings for both sides are too weak in >10 player games.
- Hive rush to egg lock is still terribly effective. Even before Sewlek's changes, the only real counter was spawning eggs nearby but outside the hive... in the hive only just isn't enough.
- The aliens have a terrible tech tree and any progress is strongly bound to having many hives. Besides that, they also need map control for resources. The marines have a very strong / flexible tech tree, extreme mobility, a lot of firepower, and not much of a need for map control beyond some resource points. Marines need fewer resource points the better the average skill level on a server is, too, even if the aliens also get equally better.

Things I also thought about:
- I have strong reservations about how grenades play out. I think they'd be a good element in the game, but it wasn't such a good idea to give organized squads of marines a further buff (a small group of decent marines with some shotguns and GL + maybe jetpacks and some flamer is terribly efficient against average groups of aliens, anyhow - you don't need to nerf large group attacks on them by giving them the ability to deploy MORE AoE damage than the GL already does).
- I also think both MACs and drifters might auto-fight each other when otherwise idle and give LoS to the commanders, but perhaps the MACs should NOT count for ARC targeting.
- Various maps have very strong points for the marines to camp and cut off, places where smaller life forms have trouble to reach and/or attack. A third to half the marine team might very well hold the entire alien team off there, unless they have mostly fades / onos. But things might be better if aliens become a bit faster, I'd have to see then. Maybe not worth fixing right now.
- Marines being allowed to build on infestation was just not a good idea.
- Too much babysitting of MACs (that run after marines that weren't completely welded yet) and Drifters. A toggle to restrict them to a room or roam the (powered/infested) map to construct and assist would be helpful, while not completely taking away all the possible micro-management that *some* commanders also seem to like (for reasons I don't understand - but I accept it, and there could be a compromise like this).

[All values are approximate - they are just by what I'd change first, see if it works, and then revise further.]

Please add your own opinions (even contradicting ones) if you feel like doing so, but don't expect me to change my opinion (/easily), or comment on everything.
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Comments

  • dragonmithdragonmith Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182817Members, Reinforced - Diamond
    I have to say i disagree with some of these points:

    When you say regen was changed, do mean from when it couldn't work in combat? because it was really bad then.

    -crags can get heal wave (with krag). Ask your com for it if you are onos. It would be nice for healing to stack however...
    -Alien commander does NOT have "too much to do". Ask the other dragon if he posts. Even if you had extreme drifter mirco and used contam to wage biological warfare, you still do not micro as much as the marine com.
    -Cysts... need a rework. I think.
    -Lucky for you, aliens can spawn eggs, either at hive, or echo eggs using a shift.
    -Scripts are cheap, but I haven't seen any, so I don't know how bad the problem is.
    -Its just a ninja PG, if you let a marine slip past defenses, they get a reward. While powering structures could be more useful, its not useless.
    -Arcs are like that. Its hard in a pub game, but try and get a lerk to spores, a gorge to bile and a drift to cloud and arcs are gone. Or, try a base rush on them.
    -Games are not really balanced for greater than 6v6 I think. It need work.
    -rush tactics for both teams work, skulk rush on CC is a game winner. Luckily, most players don't rush.
    -Aliens don't really need many res points either. It's possible to win on two hives. That said, biomass could use some love :)

    I might not comment on your thoughts :P

    You seem to think marines are OP, which might they might be, but aliens still win more games. Try doing this for aliens, see if you find anything.

    Still, well thought out post.
  • AsmodiesAsmodies Join Date: 2004-06-17 Member: 29353Members
    I can agree with some of the points here, I genuinely don't like where base skulk vs base marine is right now but I also think flat out removing strafe jump fixes that nearly entirely. I'd disagree that alien comm has "too much" to do mostly on the basis that while they do have a ton of things they *can* do, only half are really meaningful or anything but a gamble of resources. Alien and marine comm/tech tree both need an overhaul to both make more sense and change tech timings and choices. Currently the alien tech tree is more of a scatter plot, mostly disconnected nodes of varying potency that if you have 5 red nodes for 10 mins you will attain all of.

    It's the same for the marines only they need less res to get everything, there aren't really any choices in either tech tress that have meaningful consequences or reward forethought aside from maybe crag vs shift or a1 vs w1. I really think you should have to invest into life forms in a less universal way, and I think the same of JP vs Exo, we see too much of both tech trees on the ground even in short/even games.

    As to not be completely negative I think lerks and lerk timings exactly where they need to be, I just think marine shotgun timing needs to be a little later. I also think the grenades were a great addition, they just need to be toned down or raised to 5 res to discourage spam.
  • Side1Bu2Rnz9Side1Bu2Rnz9 Join Date: 2012-10-16 Member: 162510Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    I'm about 90% sure this is a troll post... At least I sincerely hope it is...
  • AsmodiesAsmodies Join Date: 2004-06-17 Member: 29353Members
    I'm about 90% sure this is a troll post... At least I sincerely hope it is...

    Considering some of their opinions are the genuine opinions of a lot of people on the forums, I'd say it's not. Aside from that at least a troll post has the potential to get productive discussion going, and off-topic post does not....
  • Side1Bu2Rnz9Side1Bu2Rnz9 Join Date: 2012-10-16 Member: 162510Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Asmodies wrote: »
    I'm about 90% sure this is a troll post... At least I sincerely hope it is...

    Considering some of their opinions are the genuine opinions of a lot of people on the forums, I'd say it's not. Aside from that at least a troll post has the potential to get productive discussion going, and off-topic post does not....

    Just because you may share some of the opinions of the OP doesn't mean "a lot of people" on the forums have the same opinion. In my experience "a lot of people" with the same opinion are of the noobish quality and not worth it. If you want my productive discussion give me a topic with something other than the horse shit opinion of some one who seems to not understand basic game play. I chose not to argue with people who don't have a platform to stand on as it would be an unfair and completely bullshit debate.
  • AsmodiesAsmodies Join Date: 2004-06-17 Member: 29353Members
    Skulk movement, the awkward state of the alien comm, cysts wildly varying degree of utility and purpose, powering structures without a node, certain arc positions (especially on bio dome), the alien tech tree, the efficacy of alien t/p res vs that of the marines, and mac usefulness/potency have all had threads debating them within the last two months. These are subjects that come up at least once a day while playing, whether it be in the RR or just while waiting for a game to begin/play out. I have some of the same opinions, I don't agree with several of the OP's assertions but I'm not so childish as to disregard him as a noob because of a difference in opinion. Neither am I a noob, and if you honestly want to debate something so off topic I can post credentials.
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    Just to re-iterate in case this gets asked or brought up again: literally the only balance change in 256/257 is the removal of gorge tunnel research requirement.
  • CyberKunCyberKun Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Hell, I thought I was biased enough for the aliens.
  • EucomolhamasEucomolhamas Join Date: 2013-03-10 Member: 183841Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Good marines get too much damage in before you're biting them.

    That's why you ambush and use some advanced movement, as a skulk you should get a bite in before the marine knows you're there most of the time.
  • Silencer9Silencer9 Candidate for B.Sc. Join Date: 2003-08-05 Member: 18967Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I dislike alien commander most of all. Nesting in a location of the map as Gorge was a very fun aspect of NS1 for me. Now the roles are very unclear. Trashing finished work feels disdaining but I'd rather see it removed than improved.
  • kalakujakalakuja Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159045Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter
    1. go to ensl.org/ ; click join gather.
    2. play for 1 week.
    3. Come back and look at your thread.
    4. ?????
    5. Post back.
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    OOOOR join your local mumble server and play pugs. frequently.
  • MrFangsMrFangs Join Date: 2013-03-27 Member: 184474Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2013
    So yes, I strongly agree with almost everything you said. its simply not true.

    Sure you don't mean disagree? :-/

    Good effort commenting each single point, btw. Quite rare instead of just a "disagree".
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    hahahahaha.
    yes I ment disagree. lols @ the typo. *goes to edit*
  • reeqlreeql Join Date: 2013-05-05 Member: 185125Members
    Bone shield now is kind like: OH ! Ive got bone shield! Lets use it, it will absorb huge ammount of damage. Hooah! *using bone shield - exo is cooling his miniguns* Now what? Time to die or try to run? The point is that standing still in place using bone shield is nearly useless. Its kinda: Hey look! There is onos covering with bone shield! Lest focus fire on him when he will try to run!
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    People who think boneshield is useless are only thinking in terms of an Onos fighting a group of marines by himself. When I'm a Lerk, Fade, or Gorge, I greatly appreciate having a massive rhino shield to hide behind when I need to heal back up.
  • The_Welsh_WizardThe_Welsh_Wizard Join Date: 2013-09-10 Member: 188101Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Radtoo wrote: »
    This:
    - Skulk movement is around 20% too slow. Perhaps more. Good marines get too much damage in before you're biting them.
    - Regen is around 50% too slow (I feel it was quite balanced before Sewlek re-did the game, now it is not). Smaller life forms should probably get more of a buff than big ones, though.
    - Fades are still a bit too healthy, Onos still a bit too weak. (That frontal shielding skill isn't really working well against good players who cease firing when it's being used, or don't usually fire at the front in the first place).
    - Crags heal units a bit too slowly. How often don't I want to return to hive to heal? Pretty rarely.
    - Alien commander has a bit too much to do, overall.
    - Related: Cyst networks are still too vulnerable to attack. This is, of course, also related to skulks being too slow now and thus loosing most fights when they have to rush to defend something against good players... but maybe some tweaks for grenade damage and/or flamer damage are also required to fix it.
    - Aliens should be able to spawn eggs somewhere else again.
    - People have started scripting 3, 5 shot salvo fire for marine pistols. This is rather unfair. Salvo fire needs to be an option or removed, fast mouse clicking isn't the way here.
    - The marine commander being able to power an unpowered phase gate by skill is a terrible idea that makes small alien sneak attacks fail and small marine sneak attacks succeed - as if more of that was needed! I personally see no other real use for the skill, so it'd be good to entirely remove it.
    - On some maps there are places where you can put ARCs into range of resources or hives, places that are way too easily defensible.
    - The defensive buildings for both sides are too weak in >10 player games.
    - Hive rush to egg lock is still terribly effective. Even before Sewlek's changes, the only real counter was spawning eggs nearby but outside the hive... in the hive only just isn't enough.
    - The aliens have a terrible tech tree and any progress is strongly bound to having many hives. Besides that, they also need map control for resources. The marines have a very strong / flexible tech tree, extreme mobility, a lot of firepower, and not much of a need for map control beyond some resource points. Marines need fewer resource points the better the average skill level on a server is, too, even if the aliens also get equally better.

    Things I also thought about:
    - I have strong reservations about how grenades play out. I think they'd be a good element in the game, but it wasn't such a good idea to give organized squads of marines a further buff (a small group of decent marines with some shotguns and GL + maybe jetpacks and some flamer is terribly efficient against average groups of aliens, anyhow - you don't need to nerf large group attacks on them by giving them the ability to deploy MORE AoE damage than the GL already does).
    - I also think both MACs and drifters might auto-fight each other when otherwise idle and give LoS to the commanders, but perhaps the MACs should NOT count for ARC targeting.
    - Various maps have very strong points for the marines to camp and cut off, places where smaller life forms have trouble to reach and/or attack. A third to half the marine team might very well hold the entire alien team off there, unless they have mostly fades / onos. But things might be better if aliens become a bit faster, I'd have to see then. Maybe not worth fixing right now.
    - Marines being allowed to build on infestation was just not a good idea.
    - Too much babysitting of MACs (that run after marines that weren't completely welded yet) and Drifters. A toggle to restrict them to a room or roam the (powered/infested) map to construct and assist would be helpful, while not completely taking away all the possible micro-management that *some* commanders also seem to like (for reasons I don't understand - but I accept it, and there could be a compromise like this).

    [All values are approximate - they are just by what I'd change first, see if it works, and then revise further.]

    Please add your own opinions (even contradicting ones) if you feel like doing so, but don't expect me to change my opinion (/easily), or comment on everything.

    Yes, let's "fix" all those things so we get alien win rates >95% again.
  • McBernsMcBerns Join Date: 2013-08-04 Member: 186563Members
    edited September 2013
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Radtoo wrote: »
    - Alien commander has a bit too much to do, overall.
    X_X
    *Grabs the fire extinguisher in preparation*

    =))

    That made me feel good for the rest of the day. Thanks for the lols.
  • Cee Colon SlashCee Colon Slash Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
    I'd just like to see a general revision on all the maps to stop gorge trolling: you know, find a nook that overlooks the marine base where they can't shoot you, evolve to gorge, and bile bomb the base with impunity. That and being able to place gorge tunnels (now available straight off for gorges!) in places the marines can't get to without jet packs.
  • ChemChem Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2555Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    reeql wrote: »
    Bone shield now is kind like: OH ! Ive got bone shield! Lets use it, it will absorb huge ammount of damage. Hooah! *using bone shield - exo is cooling his miniguns* Now what? Time to die or try to run? The point is that standing still in place using bone shield is nearly useless. Its kinda: Hey look! There is onos covering with bone shield! Lest focus fire on him when he will try to run!

    Bone shield is incredibly annoying to deal with as a Marine because the Onos can essentially block an entire approach indefinitely. They don't even need back up, and they can still slow down a marine advance to a crawl just by itself.

  • MisterYoonMisterYoon Join Date: 2012-08-18 Member: 155747Members
    He wasted time writing this post after being angry because he lost several games as alien.

    Besides, isn't the ns2stats showing that win rate is still alien-friendly?
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    Chem wrote: »
    Bone shield is incredibly annoying to deal with as a Marine because the Onos can essentially block an entire approach indefinitely. They don't even need back up, and they can still slow down a marine advance to a crawl just by itself.

    Boneshield requires huge amounts of energy.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    MisterYoon wrote: »
    He wasted time writing this post after being angry because he lost several games as alien.

    Besides, isn't the ns2stats showing that win rate is still alien-friendly?

    Currently NS2 stats shows a 57% winrate for the aliens.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    And monitor shows 54%..
  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    All right then...
    * To early to tell I think. Many are still grasping the new fade/onos. Also making a fade weaker will get it closer to a oneshot which most folk I have seen posting find unacceptable.
    Onos I cant say, see them rarely.

    You could never oneshot a fade in ns2. Fade used to have 200/50 with invincibility within "Fading", which was fine really. Now Fade has semi-tanking capabilites and is impossible to take down with LMG, unless the fade is a complete derp.

    I'm all for good movement/mobility fade with lower hp, so good marines can take down a bad fade even with a single LMG like they used to be able to, but an equally good fade can just avoid the damage and take on the marines, including shotgunners too. Used to be good long before, now fade is crappy to play and not fun to play against.

    Now fades tank 2 full hits with shotty LV3 (3 to take down) and even 4 with LV0. On a weapon that only has 6 shots to use.


    As for Onos, I'd agree onos is on the weak side, but I don't really like more health onoses. It feels quite cheap.
    But maybe some adjustments to boneshield could fix that:
    - lower energy cost when standing still
    - ability to move [slowly!] with boneshield, at the cost of it draining energy quickly
  • zeqzeq Join Date: 2012-02-14 Member: 145493Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I am still in favor of removing marine build on infestation, or at least including more penalties of marines doing so such as infestation just damaging structures rather than just their armor. To balance that change the damage might need to be reduced, but I think it is low enough that a single mac, or an occasional welder could nullify the damage so long as it wasn't in tandem with lifeforms attacking. Trying to find uninfested areas was a lot more fun, and given the cystem method for placing skulks a lot of areas in large rooms often don't get infested. Other than that I don't see too much else to change, there needs to be something that lowers the skill bar for marines so pub marines win a little more, but doesn't further buff skilled marines, but I have no idea what that is.
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    Why would you assume I thought we could oneshot fades?
    I only said that reducing fade health brings it much closer to being oneshot, which should not happen.
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