Make concede vote not public

xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
edited September 2013 in NS2 General Discussion
Edit: since nobody actually reads here, I'm going to narrow this one to two lines:
Concede vote messages in chat have deep psychological effect on team, causing the rest to follow and end the game because of one single loss, game that is nowhere nearly lost. Vote statistics should not be displayed.
This post is not about removing concede function.
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Comments

  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    Its boring to have endless turtles again and again. Thats why this mechanism was introduced @ some point.
    For me its more frustrating that 1-2 dont vote and want to fight a lost game no matter what cost.

    You can see how a team perform within the 1st 3-4 min.
    Some indicators for an fast concede are:
    - 8 marines building the base @ roundstart on an 20 slot server
    - These 8 marins running like lemmings into the same direction
    - These 8 marines die @ 1st engagement

    Concede
  • DC_DarklingDC_Darkling Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18068Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver
    I am not one to concede fast but when you are turtling its basicly over.
    At those times I am glad concede has a nowball effect.
    Yes it can also be used to much, but I take that as preference over noone at all.

    I remember how it was before concede. Such long long turtles.
  • DaveodethDaveodeth Join Date: 2012-11-21 Member: 172717Members
    It's annoying it doesn't concede when over 50% of the team vote yes, should trigger the moment that happens.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    I would agree if it wasn't too hard to concede in the first place, as others have said.

    Maybe when conceding becomes more common we can do this. If people concede enough, there's definitely zero benefits to having concede shown.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    Do not insult others by calling them cowards.

    If they want to concede they can concede and they have the right to know how many have voted and so I disagree with you.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited September 2013
    How is it "cowardly" to want to end a game that has already ended so you can start a new one?
    What I often see is:
    1. We are not steamrolling enemy -> concede
    2. One big rush lost -> concede
    3. 3rd hive down -> concede
    4. Random thing goes wrong -> concede

    Basically, whenever it takes some teamwork and strategy to win, people say "we can't win, we should surrender".

    I think you don't get what I am talking about. If the game has really ended, people will vote regardless of who voted or not. What I am talking about, is people starting to panic right at the moment what one random thing happens. Something is lost, it doesn't really change much globally, but people feel depressed and vote concede, others see it and concede as well and we get a game that has ended because of one sneaky ninja who destroyed some upgrades / lost third base / few RTs destroyed at the same time. It's not the end of the world. But people feel that they no longer can steamroll enemy team, so they want to concede and start another game where they can try again and steamroll their opponent. When, in fact, they just have to work as a team for a minute or two.

    I've seen it so many times from the other point of view: we are losing RTs here and there, losing structures, constantly dying and then suddenly we win because other team surrendered. It's always a big WTF moment, because we felt that we were the ones losing, but so did they because, well, we were killing them and their RTs from time to time. None of the teams were steamrolling other team, match was actually balanced, both felt like things are not going well for them, but one of the teams had some of those 'steamroll or concede' type players and then concede snowball effect took over and so they lost the match.

    Problem with this thing is that too many games end when they shouldn't.
    I remember those times with epic comebacks: res locked aliens still win, won games with just 1 hive which is just growing, one ninja marine turning whole game around. Those were to most excising matches. Now people just take an easy path: concede if start was not perfect and start a new match, repeat until you will be winning (so other team concedes in hopes to get easier round).
    If they want to concede they can concede
    I'm not asking to remove concede, just don't display who voted to everyone, because it has negative psychological effects.
    Maybe when conceding becomes more common we can do this.
    Are you serious? I can't remember the last time I've seen game end by normal winning conditions.



  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    They have no "right" to know how many have voted, it's just a feature. /:)
  • SopsSops Join Date: 2003-07-03 Member: 17894Members, Constellation
    xen32 wrote: »
    What I often see is:
    1. We are not steamrolling enemy -> concede
    2. One big rush lost -> concede
    3. 3rd hive down -> concede
    4. Random thing goes wrong -> concede

    I'd like to know what servers you play on because I have almost never seen this happen. Normally games have to get pretty hopeless before I see a game end from concede.

  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited September 2013
    Sops wrote: »
    xen32 wrote: »
    What I often see is:
    1. We are not steamrolling enemy -> concede
    2. One big rush lost -> concede
    3. 3rd hive down -> concede
    4. Random thing goes wrong -> concede

    I'd like to know what servers you play on because I have almost never seen this happen. Normally games have to get pretty hopeless before I see a game end from concede.

    Where I play, games end when:
    Pack of arcs is destroyed (NOOB COMM BETTER INVESTED IN UPGRADES -> Concede)
    Two oni die in one attack (ZOMG NOOBS -> Concede)
    Marines are down to two bases (THEY ARE TOO STRONG-> Concede)
    When single gorge rush fails (NO TEAMWORK -> Concede)
    Few marines use badly placed gorge tunnel and get to hive (WTF IDIOT TEAM -> Concede)
    Nano is arced (NO MORE ENDLESS FADES -> Concede)

    Games can end literally after any lost room, engagement, lifeform or structure, it just takes few players who are pissed off enough by this fact, then the chain reaction starts. Each concede vote displayed spreads more and more depression. If you don't want to go on, well, vote and just hope that you are not alone, there is no need to persuade everyone to concede. Or else, give me EVERYTHING IS FINE vote that everybody sees. Where is optimistic alternative to concede?


    The effect is very much like this:



  • TovaTova Join Date: 2012-12-26 Member: 176254Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    What really bothers me are these people who call others all kinds of names and whine every time a vote to concede has started. It's like Starcraft: When you've been outplayed, and are going to lose, GG and concede. Despite however the match went I enjoy the game and would rather have a go at another round than drag out a losing match that frequently empties the server. Don't waste my, and other people's time because you think there exists some warrior code of "never give up, never surrender," this type of behavior is considered bad mannered in many other competitive games.

    I'm of course not talking about the people who concede because of a single failed rush, or the loss of a single tech point of many. There's no real good way to combat that kind of panic conceding other than through in-game education. When someone does this, I generally take stock of the situation over the mic, and reassure the team that we still have a chance.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited September 2013
    Tova wrote: »
    I'm of course not talking about the people who concede because of a single failed rush, or the loss of a single tech point of many. There's no real good way to combat that kind of panic conceding other than through in-game education. When someone does this, I generally take stock of the situation over the mic, and reassure the team that we still have a chance.

    This is what I am talking about. "People who concede because of a single failed rush" trigger snowball effect and game ends.
    I repeat, I am not asking to remove concede vote. It should be there.
    If you want to concede, keep it to yourself. If others feel the same, they will concede as well and match will end. There is no need to tell everyone that you have voted, there is no need to persuade people that they should concede now. If they feel like they want to, they will. Telling everyone that you gave up has huge psychological impact on team. Knowing that teammates no longer want to try makes everyone want to stop. So, there should be no info about who voted to concede. And, preferably, nobody should announce it via [voice]chat


    The reason for this thread was every single game in 2 hours I played ending by concede. And in the last game, it was my team who decided to end the match on minute 10, because we lost every harvester outside our two TPs. Marine team wasn't event that good, they just managed to kill two RTs outside our bases and it was enough to win.



    Seriously, people, what is the hate towards removing this little message that does nothing, but drives your team into depression? I see that everyone who replied here is somehow bound to this feature, like it is something NS is all about.
  • NazoNazo Such Is Life in The Zone Join Date: 2010-12-16 Member: 75720Members, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    edited September 2013
    Not an imagebourd - GISP
  • Omega_K2Omega_K2 Join Date: 2011-12-25 Member: 139013Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I've seen it happens few times too that people concede too early. Hell, I've even had people trying to concede won games (4 hives, all ups vs 1 CC ) . I've seen it happen in 2 CC 3 hives or 3CC 2 hives situations which weren't lost, people tend to give up if there is a loss like a hive, base or pg lost.
    But in all fairness, I haven't seen snowballing effect as the cause.

    But anyway, I don't think hiding that option is going to solve the issue. Avarage NS2 guy doesn't know when and when not to concede.
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    If anything, I think that people on public servers don't use vote concede enough. I've never, ever run into a concession that wasn't justified, i.e. a concession with a realistic chance of winning. Of course you can be expecting multiple massive failures from the opposing team or perhaps a server crash to make you not lose, but these I do not classify as 'realistic'.

    There's no shame in admitting you don't have a plausible chance of winning. If you often run into players who give up even due to the most minimal setback, then I feel sorry for you, but my experience says it's usually the opposite: people don't realise when they've already lost.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Yeah, I rarely if ever see a team concede when they still have a chance of winning.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    concede's fine. i'd say it should unlock at 7m though, that's more than enough time.

    5min. I have +5 games DAILY when the game is UTTERLY LOST at 3-4min. Then you're supposed to either coax the team to F4 or wait for 6min. Not cool. :|
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    edited September 2013
    concede's fine. i'd say it should unlock at 7m though, that's more than enough time.

    5min. I have +5 games DAILY when the game is UTTERLY LOST at 3-4min. Then you're supposed to either coax the team to F4 or wait for 6min. Not cool. :|

    I could accept 5 minute, but I think @turtsmcgurt is right on the money with 7. Almost every time I see a game is "utterly lost" early on I look up at the scoreboard and find the time is about 7 minutes. There isn't a whole lot you can lose at 3 minutes that you can't come back from. It's still early enough in the game to counter any res damage or territory control point for point. Worst case the marines have phase gates up about 30 seconds ago and put one in a really nasty position, but you might be able to coordinate a counter assault in the next couple minutes. When THAT fails, the game is lost, which is probably around the 6 minute mark.
  • Side1Bu2Rnz9Side1Bu2Rnz9 Join Date: 2012-10-16 Member: 162510Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited September 2013
    sotanaht wrote: »
    concede's fine. i'd say it should unlock at 7m though, that's more than enough time.

    5min. I have +5 games DAILY when the game is UTTERLY LOST at 3-4min. Then you're supposed to either coax the team to F4 or wait for 6min. Not cool. :|

    I could accept 5 minute, but I think @turtsmcgurt is right on the money with 7. Almost every time I see a game is "utterly lost" early on I look up at the scoreboard and find the time is about 7 minutes. There isn't a whole lot you can lose at 3 minutes that you can't come back from. It's still early enough in the game to counter any res damage or territory control point for point. Worst case the marines have phase gates up about 30 seconds ago and put one in a really nasty position, but you might be able to coordinate a counter assault in the next couple minutes. When THAT fails, the game is lost, which is probably around the 6 minute mark.

    Agree 6-7 minutes... If a marine team is being stomped this is when fades go up and if they thought a couple of skulks and lerks were bad they're done for at that point. I too agree that I don't think concedes are a snow ball problem. I never see teams concede where they shouldn't but i very often see teams that don't concede when they should.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    concede's fine. i'd say it should unlock at 7m though, that's more than enough time.
    Yeah, I rarely if ever see a team concede when they still have a chance of winning.

    Ok, is anyone actually reading in here? This post is not about removing concede vote.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    xen32 wrote: »
    concede's fine. i'd say it should unlock at 7m though, that's more than enough time.
    Yeah, I rarely if ever see a team concede when they still have a chance of winning.

    Ok, is anyone actually reading in here? This post is not about removing concede vote.

    This thread is about making concede votes harder to pull off because the OP doesn't like his enemies quitting when he's stomping them. Simple enough. Concede needs to happen MORE often, not less.
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    sotanaht wrote: »
    xen32 wrote: »
    concede's fine. i'd say it should unlock at 7m though, that's more than enough time.
    Yeah, I rarely if ever see a team concede when they still have a chance of winning.

    Ok, is anyone actually reading in here? This post is not about removing concede vote.

    This thread is about making concede votes harder to pull off because the OP doesn't like his enemies quitting when he's stomping them. Simple enough. Concede needs to happen MORE often, not less.

    I guess you didn't read anything either.
  • turtsmcgurtturtsmcgurt Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165456Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited September 2013
    xen32 wrote: »
    concede's fine. i'd say it should unlock at 7m though, that's more than enough time.
    Yeah, I rarely if ever see a team concede when they still have a chance of winning.

    Ok, is anyone actually reading in here? This post is not about removing concede vote.

    i usually don't actually read the threads I post in but base my response on the thread title, sometimes with a quick skim through of the first line or two of the OP.
  • delta78delta78 Join Date: 2013-01-08 Member: 178131Members
    I had some games, where the teams were even. At one point we lost an engagement, which cost us a base but not the game. As usual, there is one guy, who insta volts after such a loss and many follow him. Thank God, that not every single time the team surrendered and afterwards in those "continued" games we had epic comebacks and actually wining the game in a legit manner / or losing it after the comeback but it was a lot of fun for both teams. All of those games were extremely tense and worth every second of playtime.

    Too bad many people just quit in the first seconds of losing an engagement, screwing the team and then the entire game by leaving. I guess, when the moral of the team drops drastically, everything goes to hell and only a dude with inspirational words and leadership can make a difference. Though they are rare...
  • Side1Bu2Rnz9Side1Bu2Rnz9 Join Date: 2012-10-16 Member: 162510Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    My favorite situation was on veil... I was on marines we were holding 2 bases until one got destroyed... On 1 base and turtling. Not going to win sorry, but despite my efforts the people with k/d's of like 1/3 thought that since they were 7 res away from exo we'd come back and win. Well turtling on only 1 bases and 1 res it takes forever for that 7 res. Still because I was out numbered by stupidity they continued to fight a losing game. Even bitching at me saying I was a quitter... Ok I said let's see what you do. Well what do you know the people who wouldn't quit when they were down and had k/d's of like 1/5 at this point got their exos... And lost them in 1 minute flat. People don't know when to quit and hiding the vote concede notes are only going to make this 100x worse.
  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    where's your sense, man?

    if the game is so terrible that the majority of players on a team vote concede, then EVERYONE would benefit from a new game where the teams are likely to be adjusted.
  • MarZMarZ Join Date: 2012-10-16 Member: 162473Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Yes i hate it too, when some teams instantly concede when exos/onos appear. I know in some cases it´s realy over, but serveral times i have seen 5 from 10 players concede cause marines got exos. Meanwhile we have 2 hives and 4 RTs....-.-

    It´s not the function to concede, which cause the issue. It comes from the players, which have this "casual" attitude. If they get in trouble and they have to struggle to survive they just give up.

    I dont like the games which ends after 5-10 mins. This is just an indicator for an unbalanced game. I have a lot more fun with 30-60min games, nevermind if we lose or win. If both teams know how to play and react/act in a smart way, then it´s always fun. And if you lose the game you can end in honor by placing whole base with mines and die all at the same time when one skulk runs in. Instead of just conceding. As an alien team you can build penis with gorges, place many shifts, gorge tunnel in a range of 2 meters, try a last main base power rush :D
  • xen32xen32 Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    MarZ wrote: »
    If they get in trouble and they have to struggle to survive they just give up.

    This is what I am talking about.
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