Possible to create outdoor maps?

MangoMango Join Date: 2012-10-11 Member: 162061Members
edited October 2012 in Mapping
<div class="IPBDescription">Maybe like Mars like maps the aliens motherland :)</div>I am thinking in jumping in to Spark Editor and help create more maps. My ideas very from Outdoors Mars like planets to both Outdoors and Indoors maps. And, also I was thinking of starting to create bigger maps for 20 vs 20 games. Does spark have outdoor images? Can I add my own graphical image and imported to Spark? or is it locked down?

Here is a example:
<img src="http://alien-ufo-research.com/news/2010/moon-station.JPG" border="0" class="linked-image" />

For the 20vs20 maps, I was thinking Indoor building plus outdoors in one map. This will be a big map, here is a example:
<img src="http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/337666/530wm/S6100076-Artwork_of_a_space_colony_on_the_surface_of_Mars-SPL.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />
«1

Comments

  • SkulkJesterSkulkJester Join Date: 2012-09-18 Member: 159858Members
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1993156:date=Oct 18 2012, 08:29 PM:name=Mango)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Mango @ Oct 18 2012, 08:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993156"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I am thinking in jumping in to Spark Editor and help create more maps. My ideas very from Outdoors Mars like planets to both Outdoors and Indoors maps. And, also I was thinking of starting to create bigger maps for 20 vs 20 games. Does spark have outdoor images? Can I add my own graphical image and imported to Spark? or is it locked down?

    Here is a example:
    <img src="http://alien-ufo-research.com/news/2010/moon-station.JPG" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    For the 20vs20 maps, I was thinking Indoor building plus outdoors in one map. This will be a big map, here is a example:
    <img src="http://www.sciencephoto.com/image/337666/530wm/S6100076-Artwork_of_a_space_colony_on_the_surface_of_Mars-SPL.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You could probably use the ns2_eclipse background/skybox its looks a little bit martian, but you can make your own :)

    There are plenty of rock/cave style models/props you could take advantage of, you could lie some of them sideways to create a nice ground. And also in spark you can subdivide the faces into a mesh that you could manipulate to create nice natural looking sand dunes etc. (have a look at the central drilling room in ns2_mineshaft - open it in the editor, that will give you some ideas of what is achievable)


    You will have to be clever with the way you layout your map though, so you can get the illusion of large open spaces without showing too much at once so that it engine doesn't have to render a huge area all at once. For example there are limits to how far into the distance you can see models and places and entities (1052 units i think) which is a pretty long anyway.

    In terms of gameplay there is one thing that will be tricky, and that is how will you stop aliens (and perhaps even jetpackers) from flying too high or out of the map? you can create invisible walls like in ns2_summit crevice room, and ns2_docking landingpad area i guess.


    It would be pretty cool to see a semi outdoor map where aliens start in a rocky /sandy area outside-ish, and marines start inside an underground base with little pillboxes to shootout from, and the aliens have to infest their way into the underground marine base.

    It would play very differently to the normal ns2 style, but thats not necessary a bad thing :)


    Edit: i feel like this would be a very cool scenario if it was possible to create destructable objects (i guess you could use weldable doors, and even block some things with an armory [as a legitimate strategy in this game mode]

    hmm this could be really nice if done right :)
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    I'm actually not sure if the engine can handle it, it certainly doesn't have level of detail across distance models. And NS2 gameplay has some issue with wide open areas. Marines are very powerful on range, while aliens need cover to close the distance.

    I've posted a "outdoor mapping guideline" in the NS forums a very long time ago that has some ideas of how to make it work though...
  • PsympleJesterPsympleJester Join Date: 2008-04-06 Member: 64024Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1993542:date=Oct 19 2012, 02:21 AM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Oct 19 2012, 02:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1993542"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For example there are limits to how far into the distance you can see models and places and entities (1052 units i think) which is a pretty long anyway.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I believe it is 1578 actually.

    I think you will really struggle with this due to the hard limit on draw distance.
    To show my point clearly I have a picture.

    <img src="http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q542/PsympleJester/FinalCourner_zpsd1a79a12.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

    If you look at the far wall in this image (behind the hives) that is almost exactly 1578 and thus NO length
    in your entire map can be longer than this otherwise player/structures will clip in and out of your view.

    ---

    If there was a way to get around this then I would say good luck to you sir and I applaud your ambition.
    A map I remember in NS1 that was outside was HORRIBLY unbalanced late game (even with ns1's much better jetpacks)
    and thus I think you will also really struggle with attempting to make it balanced.

    I am sorry if all this feedback seems negative I am not trying to shoot down your ambitions.
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    I think what would be achievable is something similar to what doom 3 did with its outdoor areas - some are quite large, or at least give the impression that they are, I would recommend having a look at a lets play video on youtube (or if you have doom 3 just no clip through the maps :) ) and check out the out doorish areas
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    True, Doom3 is good inspiration for this idea. But as PsympleJester said, the max render distance is too short (~45meters)
  • PsympleJesterPsympleJester Join Date: 2008-04-06 Member: 64024Members
    Meh I have been horribly too negative in this thread.
    I have come up with three ideas for outdoor maps and will be making
    some blockouts of them today.

    We can do outdoor maps, hell balance will still be horrible, but we can
    make them. I have come up with 3 methods of making them work and
    will be implementing them heavily in these 3 different maps.

    Smoke, yes... and lots of it.

    Folliage, yes and LOTS OF IT.

    Arenas making it appear to be outside but having the areas all divided into arenas where
    the line of sight cant be larger than draw distance.
  • LPCLPC Join Date: 2002-04-07 Member: 384Members, Reinforced - Diamond
    Why waste all those days/time making a map which nobody will play? Honestly I just don't get the point. There are many games out there suited for outdoor maps, like battlefield for example.

    NS2 is not suited for outdoor maps, period? Foilage does not truly block your vision so it will still look VERY ackward from a long range. Lot's of mist is just extremely silly, and the required polygons to make something like that visually believable is just not gonna cut it on this engine!

    If this post sounds negative, I'm not sorry, because I am being negative on this.


    I hope you get my message, I'd hate to see you waste your time.

    /much love.
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1994132:date=Oct 21 2012, 02:14 AM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Oct 21 2012, 02:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why waste all those days/time making a map which nobody will play? Honestly I just don't get the point. There are many games out there suited for outdoor maps, like battlefield for example.

    NS2 is not suited for outdoor maps, period? Foilage does not truly block your vision so it will still look VERY ackward from a long range. Lot's of mist is just extremely silly, and the required polygons to make something like that visually believable is just not gonna cut it on this engine!

    If this post sounds negative, I'm not sorry, because I am being negative on this.


    I hope you get my message, I'd hate to see you waste your time.

    /much love.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    if you pretty much just chop the ceilings off ns2_mineshaft, and get some sunlight in there with a nice sky, you have yourself an outdoor map - and then of course there are areas like crevice in ns2_summit.

    its definitely double and people will play it because you see this idea/request all the time. hey its custom map, it doesn't have to be competitively balanced to be fun.

    people like variety :)
  • PsympleJesterPsympleJester Join Date: 2008-04-06 Member: 64024Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1994132:date=Oct 20 2012, 04:14 PM:name=LPC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LPC @ Oct 20 2012, 04:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994132"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why waste all those days/time making a map which nobody will play? Honestly I just don't get the point. There are many games out there suited for outdoor maps, like battlefield for example.

    NS2 is not suited for outdoor maps, period? Foilage does not truly block your vision so it will still look VERY ackward from a long range. Lot's of mist is just extremely silly, and the required polygons to make something like that visually believable is just not gonna cut it on this engine!

    If this post sounds negative, I'm not sorry, because I am being negative on this.


    I hope you get my message, I'd hate to see you waste your time.

    /much love.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--quoteo(post=1994249:date=Oct 20 2012, 11:00 PM:name=schkorpio)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (schkorpio @ Oct 20 2012, 11:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1994249"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->fun.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I believe there is your answer.
    My other reason for doing this is that i have to deal with some very large rooms in my own mapping project and have yet to
    decide how to do it. Thus this is a good learning experience: Already the smoke/particle idea is a write off... (I may come back to it later).
    Foliage worked quite well but got rather repetitive and I ended up with (for balance reasons) the majority of the map being elsewhere.

    I will definitely finish the foliage one its just too ... amazing... not to finish! :)

    I am experimenting with the arenas one but I am getting a little demotivated by the amount of detail I will have to put in that is totally superfluous
    It is LITRALLY designed to have the most open space and thus crazy surface area. Also I have no frikken idea what the game play will be like...
    I wont be putting ANY details in it for a while I don't think...

    ---

    As to the OP, it can be done but you have to design your map to "block of" lines of sight and it feels more like a "very large sewer" than an "out door map"
  • AssasinxXxAssasinxXx Join Date: 2012-01-17 Member: 140983Members
    With clever use of props, cliffs and buildings it is not impossible to make an outdoor map, you just need to take it to the technical limits while keeping it believeable
  • ArkArk Join Date: 2009-08-15 Member: 68489Members
    Another problem would be lighting a large outdoor level. Deferred lights don't cope well lighting large areas and there's no directional lights implemented so far making it harder. A traditional forward rendered sunlight with CSM would be great though.

    I suppose you could knock up a light array using spot lights.
  • DarkBlueArtDarkBlueArt Join Date: 2012-09-16 Member: 159584Members
    Hi there,

    I will give it a shot and try to create an outdoor map, that looks good and plays nicely!
    Hopefully I will get some advice when I meet problems.
    As far as your thoughts are going (line of sight etc.) I will try to avoid this by using blockers and layouting the map accordingly.
    For the light, I have no idea. Time will tell I guess. :D

    Moar when I actually start to build the map.

    so long
  • RegnRegn Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165335Members
    The displacement tool was pretty similar to valve hammer's, so unless you're thinking about making something tropical like in the movie The Mist, you could always make some nice rocky caves with it. When I don't have enough props to fill up an outdoor environment I try to stay away from out door design, though, or limit players from accessing the area.
  • Kouji_SanKouji_San Sr. Hινε Uρкεερεг - EUPT Deputy The Netherlands Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2007645:date=Nov 3 2012, 02:04 AM:name=Regn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regn @ Nov 3 2012, 02:04 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2007645"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The displacement tool was pretty similar to valve hammer's, so unless you're thinking about making something tropical like in the movie The Mist, you could always make some nice rocky caves with it. When I don't have enough props to fill up an outdoor environment I try to stay away from out door design, though, or limit players from accessing the area.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    We still need proper texture tools though, I hate the lines we see when doing this. We definately need somekind of "align texture", "blending" and "treat multiple faces as one" tools to make it look good.

    Also, <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=62266" target="_blank">Ns Outdoor Mapping Guidelines/rules</a> :P
  • RegnRegn Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165335Members
    I'm encouraged to use more props and less brushes in NS2 for some reason. All the props that I once seemed to miss in NS and other Half-Life mods are now in NS2 which makes the process so much faster. In return, however, I still seem to forget that I can use props, so I struggle with brushes for the longest time until I realize "Wait, let's check out some props.. OMG, there it is!" I haven't read anything about a maximum amount of props so I'm shoving as much as possible in there. If there is a maximum amount of props I'll probably punch myself later for having to remake everything.

    On topic: There is an abundance of rocky props in NS2 that goes well with caves and outdoor design. For those who don't like the displacement tool, yay to copy-paste and alt+rotate ;)
  • PsympleJesterPsympleJester Join Date: 2008-04-06 Member: 64024Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2010422:date=Nov 5 2012, 12:42 AM:name=Regn)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Regn @ Nov 5 2012, 12:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2010422"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If there is a maximum amount of props I'll probably punch myself later for having to remake everything.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I put so many "plant" props in my engine earlier I destroyed my computer...
    Literally I put over 1000 itterations of 3 plant props into my map (its a bio dome, that was only 1 tree) and my computer started having a heart attack...
  • firefly007firefly007 Join Date: 2012-11-10 Member: 169258Members
    if you position your buildings and rocks carefully it would be possible to make an interior look like an exterior
  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    *bump*

    Anyone have ideas for/want to try designing an outdoor map?
  • Cee Colon SlashCee Colon Slash Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
    I think the biggest impediment to an outdoor map would be Lerks and jetpacks. In the outdoors, there technically isn't a ceiling, so there's nothing to stop Lerks or JP Marines from flying around all over the place.
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
    How about a map that's outdoor but surrounded by a giant glass dome, sort of like sandy's treehouse in spongebob
  • SamusDroidSamusDroid Colorado Join Date: 2013-05-13 Member: 185219Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited September 2013
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    QUOTE (Regn @ Nov 3 2012, 02:04 AM) »

    The displacement tool was pretty similar to valve hammer's, so unless you're thinking about making something tropical like in the movie The Mist, you could always make some nice rocky caves with it. When I don't have enough props to fill up an outdoor environment I try to stay away from out door design, though, or limit players from accessing the area.


    We still need proper texture tools though, I hate the lines we see when doing this. We definately need somekind of "align texture", "blending" and "treat multiple faces as one" tools to make it look good.

    Also, Ns Outdoor Mapping Guidelines/rules :P

    Unless I'm wrong, you can already treat multiple faces as one, and align textures. Just don't use invisible walls, terrible way of blocking things off in games, lazy way to do it.

  • HowserHowser UK Join Date: 2010-02-08 Member: 70488Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
    I think the closest you'll get to and outdoors map is something like Kodiak. Also Colony has plenty of open streets but they're essentially just corridors with a super high ceiling. I think you can only suggest a wider world through windows; like biodome.
    I really wouldn't recommend anyone actually tries to make a outdoors map it'll just be a complete pain to balance and optimize.
    Sadly I think its the wrong game and the wrong engine for such projects.
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    ezekel wrote: »
    How about a map that's outdoor but surrounded by a giant glass dome, sort of like sandy's treehouse in spongebob

    Yea! You could call it Biodome. Screw that other Biodome, it's not even a dome!!!
    SamusDroid wrote: »
    Kouji_San wrote: »
    QUOTE (Regn @ Nov 3 2012, 02:04 AM) »

    The displacement tool was pretty similar to valve hammer's, so unless you're thinking about making something tropical like in the movie The Mist, you could always make some nice rocky caves with it. When I don't have enough props to fill up an outdoor environment I try to stay away from out door design, though, or limit players from accessing the area.


    We still need proper texture tools though, I hate the lines we see when doing this. We definately need somekind of "align texture", "blending" and "treat multiple faces as one" tools to make it look good.

    Also, Ns Outdoor Mapping Guidelines/rules :P

    Unless I'm wrong, you can already treat multiple faces as one, and align textures. Just don't use invisible walls, terrible way of blocking things off in games, lazy way to do it.

    That only works with planar faces, not displaced subdivisions :( .
  • RedSwordRedSword Join Date: 2006-12-07 Member: 58947Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    ezekel wrote: »
    How about a map that's outdoor but surrounded by a giant glass dome, sort of like sandy's treehouse in spongebob

    Or a boring invisible ceiling like de_dust in CS 1.6 . Prevent jetpacks abuse.
  • VetinariVetinari Join Date: 2013-07-23 Member: 186325Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver
    There is no way to stop skulks...
  • LokiLoki Join Date: 2012-07-07 Member: 153973Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
    edited September 2013
    kodiak has areas such as this,
    NS2_Kodiak_Central_Biodome_1.jpg

    ns2 colony as howser said is aslo a mix of an indoors / outdoors map
    ns2 agora was an attempt at creating an outdoors map

    From what I have learnt from doing kodiak I honestly do not think it would be possible to create a good true outdoors map but having said that I am allways up for a challenge ( I do have an idea that MIGHT work) but its not something I am willing to do alone as I got 2 projects on the go atm !
  • Vert^Vert^ Join Date: 2013-01-22 Member: 181227Members
    I remember reading, that UWE was working on a feature, to disable the max distance in a location entity. That would make you able to make an outdoor area without the clipping issues. All we can do is wait!
  • clankill3rclankill3r Join Date: 2007-09-03 Member: 62145Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Since marines have a advantage by distance, it might be good to have an extra harvester for aliens so they can have higher lifefroms faster.
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
    well left 4 dead did outdoor levels, only difference was there is no jetpacks, but you could still scale the levels as the infected
Sign In or Register to comment.