Strafe Jump Needs To Go!

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Comments

  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    I actually really like @herakl3s idea,
    herakl3s wrote: »
    Marine movement, it was not fast enough, the faster strafes are good, the main problem is that atm it doesn't scale with skill: a bad marine not checking corners and getting ambushed will overcome the alien brain game with his own movement game and dodge the next bites.
    Solution proposed: have a mini stunt on the jump when recieving a bite, this way a good marine can still jump+dodge the first bites but can't spam it after recieving 3 bites.
    Not bitten marine= 100% jump, Bitten marine= 70% jump for 0.5s

    I'm afraid it is too much relying on lag issues (network + server soft). Strafe jump is all about lag apparently and lately. I felt lately having much more difficulties (+hit detection) with "TSF jumping beans". I still can do it but it's annoying and feels wrong and awkward when you "jump dance" for 5 secs with a marine that ultimately draws his welder when he has emptied his clips. We're not fighting but playing lottery and we both know it.

    I felt frankly OP when i did my usual jump routine as marine. I explain. Usually one jump isn't enough to get really far away (old NS1 habit). Even if lag gives you the upper hand in any case on NS2, it's better to add more distance. When you get the chance to have a little crate or a rail nearby (ore processing), you can do a second jump (from the crate) which won't be the same but you start from a height. So you can really get far away. The skulk's got no chance when it happens. When i'm landing, he still trying to track me... The only options he has are A/ going straight forward or B/retreat. If he bites the bait i shoot the face. If he retreat i shoot the ass... Come on...

    While we're at it what about removing from the model the legs and put some frog legs instead ? Ho! nope! it has to be mechanical: springs ?

    I'm against the strafe jump as it is a counter for dumbs. If a marine checks properly the room/corridor, he's got a hit (or at least a better chance), and the skulk's got a real hard time. Teamwork and proer behavior is better than pistolero style. Also the Commander can interact with a scan. It costs... but hey, it's better than a med spam isn't it?

    here a version of 1on1 less dependent on lag.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    I've basically given up on skulk. I now go Lerk at the first available oppertunity. 5 res doesn't take long to accumulate.
  • zeepzeep Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 3367Members
    It seems a marine jumps straight up higher than a skulk now.
  • cooliticcoolitic Right behind you Join Date: 2013-04-02 Member: 184609Members
    I also noticed that marines have become way too good at dodging.
  • AdolfinAdolfin Join Date: 2013-03-14 Member: 183958Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Good arguments being written down. Kudos!

    I played 8 continuous games as a constant skulk today to try all random ideas that came to mind how to 1on1 a marine. And every friggin time it felt like I was on some NBA dance floor!
    Space marines just jumping around from one side to the other. So out of place I dont know what to type.... It felt absolutely stupid. Like the old Counter-Strike versions.

    I know you cant mix this with real life but seriously, if you ever met an alien life-form that wanted to kill you, and you had a rifle, would you ever start jumping around? Your aim would become awful, youd get out of breath, and youd be f***ing dead!
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    Adolfin wrote: »
    Good arguments being written down. Kudos!

    I played 8 continuous games as a constant skulk today to try all random ideas that came to mind how to 1on1 a marine. And every friggin time it felt like I was on some NBA dance floor!
    Space marines just jumping around from one side to the other. So out of place I dont know what to type.... It felt absolutely stupid. Like the old Counter-Strike versions.

    I know you cant mix this with real life but seriously, if you ever met an alien life-form that wanted to kill you, and you had a rifle, would you ever start jumping around? Your aim would become awful, youd get out of breath, and youd be f***ing dead!

    I HATE the realism argument, mostly because I love games like UT especially for the high movement engagements like this. In NS2 though it's just asinine.
  • CanucckCanucck Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72987Members
    Adolfin wrote: »
    how to 1on1 a marine.

    Why would you do this?

  • DaxxDaxx Join Date: 2002-04-16 Member: 460Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    I actually really like @herakl3s idea,
    herakl3s wrote: »
    Marine movement, it was not fast enough, the faster strafes are good, the main problem is that atm it doesn't scale with skill: a bad marine not checking corners and getting ambushed will overcome the alien brain game with his own movement game and dodge the next bites.
    Solution proposed: have a mini stunt on the jump when recieving a bite, this way a good marine can still jump+dodge the first bites but can't spam it after recieving 3 bites.
    Not bitten marine= 100% jump, Bitten marine= 70% jump for 0.5s

    I was actually going to post this idea, glad to see others have it too.
  • CyberKunCyberKun Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182733Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Just nerfing it for hurt Marines will not really do all that much and it is a bit of an issue of hidden game mechanics. There is no easy way to show that the super durp jump is lessened because you are hurt.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Canucck wrote: »
    Adolfin wrote: »
    how to 1on1 a marine.

    Why would you do this?

    sometimes it's unavoidable?
  • PyromaniacPyromaniac Join Date: 2009-02-20 Member: 66498Members
    The strafe jump is fine. Aliens just need more air control to be able to counter it like they did in ns1.
  • CanucckCanucck Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72987Members
    Wheeee wrote: »
    sometimes it's unavoidable?

    Are marines hiding on the ceiling and getting the drop on your skulk?

  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members
    New tactic...
    Step 1. Join rines,
    step 2. use OP mechanics to decimate aliens,
    Step 3. piss off lots of players,
    step 4. sort pissed off players into 2 groups, group A are players that rage quit forever, group B are players who join the forum and add their complaints to mine. To bad group A is 95x bigger then group B, hope they fix it before community collapses.

    Status: K/d stats for today 78-5, 45-10, 104-26, and 20-0 oh UWE servers..., Then switched to KKG and got 25-5 where my game crashed :(
    Debrief: not enough stompage, only got called a hacker 1 time...,
    Next step: repeat tomorrow...


    Oh well I guess that's why we have fades right?
  • VigilantiaVigilantia Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 51Members
    Funny, my KDA is closer to 1:1 or 1.5:1 on this patch and I'm a decent Marine. Maybe it's more likely you just pub stomped a shit ton of new non-rookie players that came in with the recent patch?
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited September 2013
    Pyromaniac wrote: »
    Aliens just need more air control to be able to counter it like they did in ns1.
    Reeke wrote: »
    If marines keep their movement buff, give skulks more air control so they turn in the air while keeping speed. (I know we tried this in the beta test mod, but skulks were faster at the time and marines were slower)
    Nooo... please no...

    Increased air control leads to the limitless skulk model from those earlier versions. What it does is feel great on the skulk for the average user, but provide an amazingly high skill ceiling of dodging and exploiting mechanics to a degree that it raises the skill floor requirement for marines to a point that it creates that old familiar 75% winrate on aliens. All because your average marine cannot track the magic bullet skulk. This gave such a huge advantage to aliens, despite it being fun to play as a skulk, that it eventually brought about the "brick skulk" in a knee jerk reaction. (only after trying patch after patch of adjusting values)

    Now we have a new movement system and honestly, before reinforced was introduced, felt balanced and just fine?? Took months to get that right with daily/hourly tweaking in the BT mod?
    So now that we introduced this new mechanic we are trying to bend over backwards in trying to redesign something that was working well?
    Ugh.. i don't think its worth it. I'm all for skilled based movement mechanics but after spending 5 minutes practicing it, its not skillful at all, and its very cheap and spammable.. lessening the importance of positioning for marines, as well.

    I recommend addressing anything other than skulk movement.
    Else you will repeat history, or take months to get to a good spot that everyone agrees on..(something the BT mod did already..) either option seems terrible to me.

    Maybe just remove it and make marine base acceleration better?

  • FLuXFLuX Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11633Members, NS2 Playtester, Subnautica Playtester
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Pyromaniac wrote: »
    Aliens just need more air control to be able to counter it like they did in ns1.
    Reeke wrote: »
    If marines keep their movement buff, give skulks more air control so they turn in the air while keeping speed. (I know we tried this in the beta test mod, but skulks were faster at the time and marines were slower)
    Nooo... please no...

    Increased air control leads to the limitless skulk model from those earlier versions. What it does is feel great on the skulk for the average user, but provide an amazingly high skill ceiling of dodging and exploiting mechanics to a degree that it raises the skill floor requirement for marines to a point that it creates that old familiar 75% winrate on aliens. All because your average marine cannot track the magic bullet skulk. This gave such a huge advantage to aliens, despite it being fun to play as a skulk, that it eventually brought about the "brick skulk" in a knee jerk reaction. (only after trying patch after patch of adjusting values)

    Now we have a new movement system and honestly, before reinforced was introduced, felt balanced and just fine?? Took months to get that right with daily/hourly tweaking in the BT mod?
    So now that we introduced this new mechanic we are trying to bend over backwards in trying to redesign something that was working well?
    Ugh.. i don't think its worth it. I'm all for skilled based movement mechanics but after spending 5 minutes practicing it, its not skillful at all, and its very cheap and spammable.. lessening the importance of positioning for marines, as well.

    I recommend addressing anything other than skulk movement.
    Else you will repeat history, or take months to get to a good spot that everyone agrees on..(something the BT mod did already..) either option seems terrible to me.

    Maybe just remove it and make marine base acceleration better?

    Remove it and pretend it never existed. =]

  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Hey gais, I think we should try q3 player acceleration for marines :>
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members
    @Vigilantia mostly i just play way to much... but i did notice quite a few shadow bAdges so not sure how many noobs payed 75$... Normally I play KKG with decent regulars... Personally have not finished bottom half of scoreboard with less the 2-1 in months ...

    But that's why I'm aginst it, it's easy mode for marines. The better you are as a marine the more powerful... Being able to jump around with 0 amo and 4 skulks for over a minute is an indication that something is wrong (even if the skulks are terrible)

    Yes I only do pub, but last time I checked pub players payed the bills...
  • UncleCrunchUncleCrunch Mayonnaise land Join Date: 2005-02-16 Member: 41365Members, Reinforced - Onos
    @IronHorse : QFT
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    Hey gais, I think we should try q3 player acceleration for marines :>

    What about the grappling hook ? You grab the target. And while it's closing; you launch a rocket in his ass and then run through a blood rain... good times...


  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    Hey gais, I think we should try q3 player acceleration for marines :>

    it would work for the close-combat

    the mobility when you're bricked is fairly limited. changing directions erratically is hard. and you only get speed over time isntead of all at once

    but then the marines' top speed would be soooo high
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    biz wrote: »
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    Hey gais, I think we should try q3 player acceleration for marines :>

    it would work for the close-combat

    the mobility when you're bricked is fairly limited. changing directions erratically is hard. and you only get speed over time isntead of all at once

    but then the marines' top speed would be soooo high

    Atrium to Flight in 10s go.
  • MartigenMartigen Australia Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2714Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Reinforced - Onos
    Just to add my voice:

    As a game design mechanic strafe jumping is frustrating and unnecessary. As a visual presentation it's just silly.

    Please remove it.

    If there are balance issues, there are much better ways to address skulk/marine interaction than TSF suits that seemingly have built-in thrusting dildos that cause rines to jump like crazy as their a-holes reach new galactic proportions.
  • RedSwordRedSword Join Date: 2006-12-07 Member: 58947Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    IronHorse wrote: »
    Pyromaniac wrote: »
    Aliens just need more air control to be able to counter it like they did in ns1.
    Reeke wrote: »
    If marines keep their movement buff, give skulks more air control so they turn in the air while keeping speed. (I know we tried this in the beta test mod, but skulks were faster at the time and marines were slower)
    Nooo... please no...

    Increased air control leads to the limitless skulk model from those earlier versions. What it does is feel great on the skulk for the average user, but provide an amazingly high skill ceiling of dodging and exploiting mechanics to a degree that it raises the skill floor requirement for marines to a point that it creates that old familiar 75% winrate on aliens. All because your average marine cannot track the magic bullet skulk. This gave such a huge advantage to aliens, despite it being fun to play as a skulk, that it eventually brought about the "brick skulk" in a knee jerk reaction. (only after trying patch after patch of adjusting values)

    Now we have a new movement system and honestly, before reinforced was introduced, felt balanced and just fine?? Took months to get that right with daily/hourly tweaking in the BT mod?
    So now that we introduced this new mechanic we are trying to bend over backwards in trying to redesign something that was working well?
    Ugh.. i don't think its worth it. I'm all for skilled based movement mechanics but after spending 5 minutes practicing it, its not skillful at all, and its very cheap and spammable.. lessening the importance of positioning for marines, as well.

    I recommend addressing anything other than skulk movement.
    Else you will repeat history, or take months to get to a good spot that everyone agrees on..(something the BT mod did already..) either option seems terrible to me.

    Maybe just remove it and make marine base acceleration better?

    I'm pretty sure there is a way to do this. The current problem comes from the slow skulk lack of air control. The old problem @ bullet-skulk was that the skulk had too much air control when going fast.

    Why not allow a good air control when slow and a bad one when fast ? I feel that it would be a bit like the old skulk, but with the skulk being "heavier" for the physics (I have no idea how the physic engine is done obviously).
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members
    Let us settle this:

    The marine's main chance of winning a 1v1 is with distance. The skulk's is up close.

    If a marine know show to jump properly (please ignore people with few hours in the game for now) then they win the majority on the outside, and the majority on the inside.

    Skulks should be rewarded for getting in close, undetected. To bite the marine and have him haphazardly hop around the place and either fluke a kill on you or have a teammate save him easily is something that most new players tell me is the thing that puts them off playing as alien. Tough luck? No - not tough luck.

    So in lieu of this we need to make it easier for a marine to win when the alien is coming from a distance, and easier for the alien to win if he is on the inside (GENERALISATIONS - maybe the skulk has 4HP when on the inside).


    The CENTRAL issue to this game is balance. Balance. Balance. Balance. But we need to realise that balancing is not about JUST making games 50/50. It also has to be fun. I am all for allowing marines to jump, but I can dodge so many skulks and I feel like I should have died. I should not have allowed them to get on the inside, and yet because of the cheesy game mechanics, I survived.

    I don't care if it is 60/40 in favour of the aliens if the game is not boring. Fades have been raped recently. The problem with fades was their ability to move great distances, quickly, and with no energy expenditure. So how did UWE fix it? They made it such that speed is tanked, energy is tanked AND you cannot drop fade eggs so easily. I am in favour of the egg change, and in addition the energy change - BUT SPEED? A fade SHOULD be faster than a JP, WAY faster, but he's not. That is why we see fades getting starched and what is another reason why the game is fooked right now.

    Too much of a tangent there but you get my point. Balance is the second most important thing - do not sacrifice fun.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    Reeke wrote: »
    Maybe just remove it and make marine base acceleration better?

    Marines were strafing/jumping around before the current movement buffs went live, personally I didnt see a need for any of these buffs. There's an alien bias at other levels of play, but to me the marine v skulk play was fine before these buffs. We're at a point were marines aren't much slower than non celerity skulks and that's just wrong (imo of course).
    Good point.
  • CD121CD121 Join Date: 2013-04-04 Member: 184635Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Introducing NS2: Raving Rabbids

    But in all seriousness, this new marine mechanic is a little silly. Perhaps something a little less spammable would do for... whatever problem there was that elicited this change in the first place. In the end though, whether on the giving or receiving end, seeing these ridiculous marine-skulk acrobatics play out really leaves a bad taste- this is not the way I would've gone about it.

    "Wait - Oh my god, I've figured it out: TSF marines are slowly being turned into skulks!"



    ...yeah.






  • CanucckCanucck Join Date: 2010-07-26 Member: 72987Members
    edited September 2013
    The CENTRAL issue to this game is balance. Balance. Balance. Balance.

    They've been fucking with balance for years, yet servers still run like absolute trash...

    Who gives a fuck about balance when the game is unplayable 90% of the time. Forcing everyone to relearn basic game mechanics every patch while lagging like crazy is just salt in the wounds

  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    edited September 2013
    *snip* How about something more constructive next time - Ironhorse
  • majorpainmajorpain Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187515Members
    edited September 2013
    Not sure if its been said i have not read all six pages, but if for some crazy reason the marine are going to keep there bionic legs make it so they only work this way at 100% health, once they take any damage to there health they lose there 6 million dollar man ability.
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