Instacyst + whip echo

SolaritySolarity Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
There is one khamm I know who uses this tactic a lot. He builds a small army of whips, then drops that insta cyst and echos the whips into place. This tactic is annoying esp in an area where the power node isn't in line of sight of marine structures. While I use to echo whips into bases, it took a lot more skill in placement of cysts and shades to be able to echo them in. I do feel this is a bit broken and hard to combat in certain bases

Comments

  • KattcattisKattcattis Join Date: 2013-01-31 Member: 182683Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I am a echo commander. And actually liked to have to struggle to get the cyst into marine base. With the instacyst it feels a bit easy, but oh well. Another thing to get used to :p
  • CCTEECCTEE Join Date: 2013-06-20 Member: 185634Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    What u see is the Wips but in reality you have lost already. The wips are just a sympton.
  • SolaritySolarity Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I disagree, it can be easy or hard to use this tactic depending on the layout of the location. You could say the same for heavy or onos. Though a lot of bile on an area from a lot of targets that are hard to see is a bit broken. If a tactic is used a lot and it is difficult to combat, then I think it needs to be fixed. Put a longer cool down om e
  • BeigeAlertBeigeAlert Texas Join Date: 2013-08-08 Member: 186657Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Pistachionauts
    All you have to do to counter this is setup an arc or two in your main.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    Beacons, Arcs, and scans are a delaying tool. While they are very effective at dealing with contaminate, if you are dealing with contaminate at all you really shouldn't expect to make a comeback one way or another. It means you are already so far behind that frankly if you WERE able to dig yourself out of the hole I would call it poor design.
  • SolaritySolarity Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Some of the best games we were down to 2 bases and 3 nodes, but were able to come back and win. I think having a couple of arcs in base seems like an expensive way to combat this.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    Solarity wrote: »
    Some of the best games we were down to 2 bases and 3 nodes, but were able to come back and win. I think having a couple of arcs in base seems like an expensive way to combat this.

    Been there, done that, but you really shouldn't be ABLE to do that. When the enemy has a 3 to 1 advantage on you for nearly 30 minutes you don't deserve it.
  • SolaritySolarity Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    sotanaht wrote: »
    Solarity wrote: »
    Some of the best games we were down to 2 bases and 3 nodes, but were able to come back and win. I think having a couple of arcs in base seems like an expensive way to combat this.

    Been there, done that, but you really shouldn't be ABLE to do that. When the enemy has a 3 to 1 advantage on you for nearly 30 minutes you don't deserve it.

    Epic come backs occur all the time on our server. As the khamm can easily move things he can just build whips through out the game. Those games tend to last long and it is nice to beat a team that got over cocky and got their onos and fades killed while we counter with arcs and heavies.
  • maD_maX_maD_maX_ Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184678Members
    I can echo faster then you can arc!!! Hahaha... But seriously it is pretty OP.

    Played a game, where rines were making a big comeback, arcs outside deposite, half my team gorge trying to keep it alive the other half dies trying to push them back. Meanwhile JP in cave kills all but one shell, and takes the hive to 75%... We're done or should be....

    I pull my remaking 3 whips up to sorting drop 9 more.... After some misting I echo 4 whips to repair powernode and 4 whips to operations powernode.... Power goes down in both... They kill the 4 in operation, but my 4 in repair bile everything as I cyst in and spread them out... I wait a few seconds and echo my last 4 whips to operations powernode which kill the rines welding and keeps them from repairing the node long enough for my team to sweep through and finish them off.....
  • Mattk50Mattk50 Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182824Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    a contaminate push costs a hell of a lot of tres and time. You will need to put down the contaminate ability a number of times for your whips to survive long enough to do damage, plus bonewalls to defend them from being mowed down. And you need to have matured whips, which means a significant investment awhile before the actual push. Hardly OP. If your at that stage of the game, and your opponent has that much tres to blow on this tactic, you're fucked anyway. Its a counter to marine turtles.
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    edited September 2013
    If you let them get three hives you have to recognize that you are now on a timer and that killing one of those hives is imperative to staying in the game. If you sit back too long and give them enough time to get both biomass upgrades on their third hive, build mass whips, and then mature those whips, then you will lose. You gave the other team enough time to secure a very large advantage, and now they're going to use it to get their deserved win. However, if you do realize the threat, plan for it, and execute a hive kill you can absolutely come back. I've seen it before, I've commanded it before, and it is very much a viable, if difficult, comeback.

    Comebacks are supposed to be high risk with a lower chance of success, mind you. That's why it's a comeback - you're trying to come back from a position where the other team had been winning the game. Winning fights earlier on has to be meaningful later on or the game is just a turtle to high tier tech.

    It's also worth noting that it's not actually that hard to turtle against this strat and try to buy additional time. All you need is a flamethrower - literally, that is all you need. A whip an immature whip that is on fire can't do anything. Sure, if they back it up with an actual push it's not quite that simple, but then we're not really talking about winning the game with whips alone, either.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    Flamethrowers don't disable whips.
  • ekrizonekrizon Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 170924Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Needed something to break those marine turtles. That was the worst thing about the game..
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    edited September 2013
    sotanaht wrote: »
    Flamethrowers don't disable whips.

    Prrrrretty sure they do. Apparently doesn't affect mature whips; reported as bug.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited September 2013
    Narfwak wrote: »
    sotanaht wrote: »
    Flamethrowers don't disable whips.

    Except that they do. Try it.

    They should, but they don't, maybe it's a bug but when I see whips being flamed they still whack me.
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    I just tested it. Attacking a whip with a flamethrower = whip isn't attacking me back at point-blank range. If you get hit by it then it's probably because there's some lag time where the whip got a swing in before the server saw that it was actually on fire.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
  • NarfwakNarfwak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5258Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica PT Lead, NS2 Community Developer
    edited September 2013
    Tested again; only seems to work against whips that are not fully matured. So... that's weird. I guess that also makes me half wrong, at least. Reported it as a bug. >_>
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I like this mechanic from a balance standpoint.. but that's about it. It's not very fun to be on the receiving end of, since there are essentially no counters to it. There probably shouldn't be any counters to it I guess.. but it just feels bad, man. :(
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Marine turtles needed to go, they were by far the worst part of the game. Not sure if Contamination is the best way to go about ending them, but it does work, so that's something.

    Frankly, the way I see it, if the marines have allowed the aliens to hold three tech points and haven't pushed/destroyed a hive in the five minutes or so it takes to get to biomass 9, they've already lost. Maybe some will disagree with me on that, but that's the way I see it.
  • FLuXFLuX Join Date: 2002-12-30 Member: 11633Members, NS2 Playtester, Subnautica Playtester
    Two ARCs in a main base will completely negate Contamination as the cyst will be killed off before they have a chance to even allowed the infestation to spread.
  • SolaritySolarity Join Date: 2012-11-13 Member: 170515Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I dont mind a way to end turtles, I am saying an A-Bomb like this shouldn't be the way. If aliens got the res, they should have no problem coordinating a big attacj
  • DraptorDraptor Join Date: 2013-03-05 Member: 183721Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Solarity wrote: »
    Some of the best games we were down to 2 bases and 3 nodes, but were able to come back and win. I think having a couple of arcs in base seems like an expensive way to combat this.

    Thus forcing the making the Marine commander make a choice between spending the res on ARCs, or using that same res to outfit and support a push or ninja phase to destroy a hive. To me that's added command depth, and the game is better for it. One of the big complaints many folks have is the perceived linear tech tree, and this is one more branch being added to it.

    NS2 from a strategic perspective is about denying the enemy assets while exploiting ones you've held, containing the enemy, then defeating him. The beginning to mid game is the battle for map control, and the victor of that battle gets a large advantage, while the loser is still able to tech up but much more slowly. And that's what they deserve- they were out played and have to pay the price. If you've been losing and the enemy makes a mistake, that's your opportunity for a comeback (assuming you and your team are good enough to recognize and capitalize on that mistake).
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Solarity wrote: »
    I dont mind a way to end turtles, I am saying an A-Bomb like this shouldn't be the way. If aliens got the res, they should have no problem coordinating a big attacj

    And yet clearly they did. For months the aliens would have the res needed to win the game and it still took 20+ minutes. There's no question something needed to be done.
  • 1dominator11dominator1 Join Date: 2010-11-19 Member: 75011Members
    edited September 2013
    I doubt its very fun for the aliens, considering it works even with 0 cooperation.
    As for turtles, that is precisely when this does not work. With the whole marine team in their base the whips wont be able to do much. Contaminate is just a cheap auto kill one a single marine base when they are busy elsewhere. Like arcs, except it takes less planning or strategy and is best countered exclusively by the commander (this isnt a damn rts! Comms should not be winning the game but supporting their players as those win the game).

    P.S. can you even kill the damn cysts? I remember emptying like 3 rifle clips at it and the hit reg indicators did not even light up once.

    P.P.S. I have not seen a protracted marine turtle for a really long time now, if the aliens have the slightest bit of coordination turtles are not so hard to break. Besides marines are meant to be hard to finish, that is why they have things like beacon, sentries and no limit on IPs. If the devs really wanted to cure turtles they would limit the # of ips allowed per comm chair.
  • zeqzeq Join Date: 2012-02-14 Member: 145493Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Pretty sure you are supposed to be able to kill contamination like you can with bonewalls, but it either doesn't take damage, or there is no damage indicator. Whatever it is, it is probably a bug. Also in addition to arcs, I have seen nerve gas grenades work really well against these kind of pushes, where one grenade and a few guys could clear out the 10+ whips echoed in by the khamm. I think we did that three times before the combined effort of the alien push and whip echo got us. Aliens are at their weakest when forced to attack from two passageways against an entire marine team, so this goes a long way to helping break up turtles. From what I have seen is that marine turtles, no matter how under teched can repeatedly deal with alien pushes or whip echoes, but not both. Also I have seen the ideal uses of it not to take out power, but to be used in tandem with a push to focus down the arms lab, advanced armory, or some important structure helping the marines turtle.
  • CaptivaCaptiva Join Date: 2013-09-01 Member: 187588Members
    I think if everyone got the nerf they wanted for marines, nobody would play them.
    Any time it takes and Alien more then a second to kill a marine, it seems like they are on the forums complaining.

    I have also noticed a rash of commanders who try and call the game long before it is over (everyone press f4, or this game is gg) while we are still in the middle of the fight with 2 bases, Or they constantly berate their fellow teammates on everything they are doing wrong, but refuse to support anyone.

    Mainly Marines, but I have also noticed this with aliens too.

    So it usually isn't hard for an alien commander of any ability to out command most of the people who insist on jumping into the command chair for Marines game after game.

    Free weekend nobody wanted to command, now I can never get into the chair as the same clueless people keep jumping in.
  • sotanahtsotanaht Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Members
    I doubt its very fun for the aliens, considering it works even with 0 cooperation.
    As for turtles, that is precisely when this does not work. With the whole marine team in their base the whips wont be able to do much. Contaminate is just a cheap auto kill one a single marine base when they are busy elsewhere. Like arcs, except it takes less planning or strategy and is best countered exclusively by the commander (this isnt a damn rts! Comms should not be winning the game but supporting their players as those win the game).

    P.S. can you even kill the damn cysts? I remember emptying like 3 rifle clips at it and the hit reg indicators did not even light up once.

    P.P.S. I have not seen a protracted marine turtle for a really long time now, if the aliens have the slightest bit of coordination turtles are not so hard to break. Besides marines are meant to be hard to finish, that is why they have things like beacon, sentries and no limit on IPs. If the devs really wanted to cure turtles they would limit the # of ips allowed per comm chair.

    I have seen some REALLY long marine turtles if exos are present, especially dual exos. Also, none of that means marines are SUPPOSED to be hard to "finish".
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