I went to NS2stats (I know it isn't perfect, but it's the best we have) and set the filter from August 1 to August 27 to get an idea of alien winrates prior to this patch. The results? 68% aliens, 32% marines. Then I changed the filter to go from August 28 to today: 57% to 43%. It's about 60/40 now, it was 70/30 before the patch
And there is no way that marines won 50% of all competitive matches... at any level other than div1 aliens were winning at least 70% of the time.
I went to NS2stats (I know it isn't perfect, but it's the best we have) and set the filter from August 1 to August 27 to get an idea of alien winrates prior to this patch. The results? 68% aliens, 32% marines. Then I changed the filter to go from August 28 to today: 57% to 43%. It's about 60/40 now, it was 70/30 before the patch
And there is no way that marines won 50% of all competitive matches... at any level other than div1 aliens were winning at least 70% of the time.
You said it right. Any other level is public game for me. period. In fact i've seen more better public games than most of the game in D2/D3 that i could watch. Sometime on RedTV they even make jokes knowing in advance the goofs (and yes it is goofs) that gonna happen.
Build 251 and 252 are about a week old combined together. Let time to the work.
I went to NS2stats (I know it isn't perfect, but it's the best we have) and set the filter from August 1 to August 27 to get an idea of alien winrates prior to this patch. The results? 68% aliens, 32% marines. Then I changed the filter to go from August 28 to today: 57% to 43%. It's about 60/40 now, it was 70/30 before the patch
And there is no way that marines won 50% of all competitive matches... at any level other than div1 aliens were winning at least 70% of the time.
You did not just do that... You even included the broken patch. Have some sense human. It's free weekend, you can't just go and compare it like that.
Aliens were winning 70% of games because they were easy to play. People bitched about it, so now it's getting rebalanced to make aliens hard to play. We're going to have marine stomps going on for awhile till everyone learns how to play aliens again. Don't expect to be able to solo skulk anymore. Marines can't solo, and now aliens can't either.
This sounds like 240 all over again, although not as extreme this time it seems. 240 put me off playing because of the vanilla rine vs vanilla skulk balance. Skulk vs rine was quite fair in 250.
I thought the balance problem was more to do with fade explosions? Which since the fades got hit with the nerf bat, why did they need to ruin skulk vs rine?
Yeah I primarily play marines and when I discovered the effectiveness of jumping around shooting down at skulks I was like "Whaaat this doesn't seem right??"
>casual players
I wouldn't call them "casual." This isn't really a casual game to begin with. New players? Yes.
And they're gonna have to learn one way or another.
Micro-positioning? If Marines are already given a chance to position themselves where you're likely already detected/likely to die if you encounter them at such distances, then you better reevaluate your game-plan.
Skulks are meant for ambushing/sneaking, not engaging head-on.
cyberkun is right, all the high level players know the maps extremely well and know pretty much every single ambush position and have practiced enough to make ambushing incredibly difficult, the only real way to have a chance of winning an engagement is to hit them head-on with multiple skulks from multiple angles.
cyberkun is right, all the high level players know the maps extremely well and know pretty much every single ambush position and have practiced enough to make ambushing incredibly difficult, the only real way to have a chance of winning an engagement is to hit them head-on with multiple skulks from multiple angles.
Ambushing doesn't mean hiding above a door, and head on engagements certainly doesn't work against marines who can aim well. A div 1 player will take down 3 skulks with lvl 1/1 if they engage head on.
Whatever the effect on balance may be, marines jumping around like fairies isn't exactly helping the atmosphere. I'd say severely nerf jumping height/frequency, and balance from there.
I was under the impression they had nerfed the Skulk bite radius as it is more difficult to connect with a bite now but it seems they have buffed the marine bunny hop. Maybe it would be an idea to nerf the bite radius in some way but not having the marine out hopping the Skulk like it is now its a bit too Benny Hill.
Whatever the effect on balance may be, marines jumping around like fairies isn't exactly helping the atmosphere. I'd say severely nerf jumping height/frequency, and balance from there.
Hate to break it to you but bunny jumping marines is essentially CORE gameplay. It's been around since NS1 and was pretty heavily nerfed in the start of NS2 if I recall correctly. It's basically the equivalent of SC2 Marine stutter stepping or any RTS scoot and shooting.
You take that away and you're going to have to buff the marines with default smart guns or something.
I´m fine with the frequency of jumps, but the height is a problem.You have to magically time your jump at the exact same time, which basically means its random guessing.You can´t respond to the future(lag comp and speed of light stuff) fast enough in these encounters.
At least leave the marine in our view not dissappear from the screen once he bunny hops into space.
I'm confused, have you seen any higher level games? The amount of ambushing in it is a lot lower than you think.
actually it's variable.
if marines are in a good position and relaxed/not time sensitive, then ambushing is nigh impossible because marines can afford to look in every cranny.
if marines are under the cosh and need to react quickly, they simply MUST throw caution to the wind. in which case ambushing is the best strategy, and this is the same from rookie pub play right up to the top tier. it's one of the main RTS fundamentals.
there are other viable strategies aside from 'direct combat' and 'ambush' too. such as avoiding marines entirely - harrassing forces marines to fall back and respond (aliens should have the upper hand on most maps with this due to their superior mobility). also, creating diversions/flanking group attacks are favourable for aliens due to the superior mobility and small marine clip size.
I'm confused, have you seen any higher level games? The amount of ambushing in it is a lot lower than you think.
actually it's variable.
if marines are in a good position and relaxed/not time sensitive, then ambushing is nigh impossible because marines can afford to look in every cranny.
if marines are under the cosh and need to react quickly, they simply MUST throw caution to the wind. in which case ambushing is the best strategy, and this is the same from rookie pub play right up to the top tier. it's one of the main RTS fundamentals.
there are other viable strategies aside from 'direct combat' and 'ambush' too. such as avoiding marines entirely - harrassing forces marines to fall back and respond (aliens should have the upper hand on most maps with this due to their superior mobility). also, creating diversions/flanking group attacks are favourable for aliens due to the superior mobility and small marine clip size.
stop pretending that ns2 is an FPS.
Tactical FPS but a FPS none the less. You are right that on some occasions competitive players don't check corners, but this often happens because intel is collected showing the alien presence is on the other side of the map or is at a known location. In pubs however most competitive marines don't often feel the need to check corners as the aim is what can carry them, plus pub aliens always use the same locations for ambushes.
I went to NS2stats (I know it isn't perfect, but it's the best we have) and set the filter from August 1 to August 27 to get an idea of alien winrates prior to this patch. The results? 68% aliens, 32% marines. Then I changed the filter to go from August 28 to today: 57% to 43%. It's about 60/40 now, it was 70/30 before the patch
And there is no way that marines won 50% of all competitive matches... at any level other than div1 aliens were winning at least 70% of the time.
If that's your single criterion of satisfaction with the game, I recommend replacing the game with a single coin toss. Heads, marines, win, tails, aliens win, there you go, perfect 50 percent balance.
I do believe when you have a skulk biting an ass or a leg is like a bear trap... Why on earth does the marines isn't slowed down ?
When a wild animal attacks you, it pounces you and tears you to pieces on the ground. The idea that you jump-jump-jump while it nibbles your ankles is ridiculous, but back with Half Life 1 engine, you could not do much else. Before Counterstrike, every FPS was about jump-jump-jump, but 10+ years later, it does not feel so fresh.
I'm confused, have you seen any higher level games? The amount of ambushing in it is a lot lower than you think.
actually it's variable.
if marines are in a good position and relaxed/not time sensitive, then ambushing is nigh impossible because marines can afford to look in every cranny.
if marines are under the cosh and need to react quickly, they simply MUST throw caution to the wind. in which case ambushing is the best strategy, and this is the same from rookie pub play right up to the top tier. it's one of the main RTS fundamentals.
there are other viable strategies aside from 'direct combat' and 'ambush' too. such as avoiding marines entirely - harrassing forces marines to fall back and respond (aliens should have the upper hand on most maps with this due to their superior mobility). also, creating diversions/flanking group attacks are favourable for aliens due to the superior mobility and small marine clip size.
stop pretending that ns2 is an FPS.
Tactical FPS but a FPS none the less. You are right that on some occasions competitive players don't check corners, but this often happens because intel is collected showing the alien presence is on the other side of the map or is at a known location. In pubs however most competitive marines don't often feel the need to check corners as the aim is what can carry them, plus pub aliens always use the same locations for ambushes.
it's not about hiding in corners though. i'd describe ambushing as simply hitting a player when they don't expect it - even if it's only a <1 second window. predicting exactly the right time to strike, using game sense e.g. when marine is coming through the doorway (knowing he's highly likely preparing to quickly check left, right or up) and therefore pounce in that 0.5 sec before he gets through the door into his 'on point' pose - usually catching him slightly disorientated.
maybe he predicts you'll pre-emptively pounce and catch you easily with prefire, but in that case his mind games were superior. ambushing is all about anticipation, mind games and game sense, generally the player under less pressure will have the advantage because the other player has fewer options.
anyway, my point is that ambushing is more complex than hiding in a corner (which is a complete and utter noob tactic) with no plan other than to attack when you see a marine, and ambushing most definitely works in every level of play in pretty much any FPS game - you can see this countless times in top tier comp games...
(been watching high level comp tournament matches since the days of UT, and (modestly lol) rate myself as a top tier player minus the motivation to play seriously - too old to take games seriously *sniff*)
Proper balance of the game relies at least on some predictability - marines being able to outshoot skulks on range, but on the other hand, aliens being reliably able to capitalize on a successful ambush. But now? Now matter from how unpredictable angle you strike, the marine will just outjump you. He does not even have to see you - no, he will just call his buddies and they will shoot you off him in no time.
strafe and elevation jumping are some of the most interesting aspects of basic marine combat... and about as far from op/gamebreaking as you can get. 100% l2p issue
While the 70/30 balance is bad resulting in a meta game in need of change, this change should be attainable through tweeks to things other then 1v1 combat.
A marine has an undeniable advantage at range (a gun) where as the strafe jump makes the individual encounter less enjoyable since it levels the close combat playing field. Getting 2 unsuspecting bites in a marine' back only to have him leep out of range of the 3rd (sure para works for armor 0) and stays out of range as he jumps around to mow you down is very unsatisfying.
I find marine boring, as i can run around that map pre fade with little worry, while we may lose to some uncontrollable event (fadeball, bile rush, out skilled) as a marine in the field who checks corners, skulks are 13 bullets from death.
In general while I agree that alien are "easy" i would argue that its not "easy" because 1v1 is OP but because aliens inevitably end up working together far more then marines... this is because unlike in NS1 where aliens did not have a comm and only had Pres, now they have all the coordination of a comm, plus they have specialized support classes (gorge, lerk) and inevitably when working together they are much more effective (thus they win).
So until mariens work together (a balanced mix of SG/GL/Flame/exo) they will continue to be stomped (unless of coarse we nerf aliens to the point where no matter how well they work together they cant win) ....
Suggestion create a support class for the marines maybe who can build turrets (sure you loss asymmetry since thats like a gorge) and weld.... give rines an alternative to all going EXO, all going SG, all going JP, alll Going Flame... because thats what ends up happening rines end up with powerful weapons and the advantage and play stupid only to have a coordinated alien push come from no where and end the game...
The change doesn't make sense on a lot of levels. The entire dynamic between aliens and marines is that one has a gun and one has a mouth. One has range and one doesn't, so the advantage is given to range and something has to be given to the melee to balance this potency. The idea was that aliens are mobile and can be elusive and close the distance and do really high DPS. Well in an engine that rolls every bullet back 200+ms and where the faster you go the more disjointed your client is from the client shooting you, dodging isn't as effective a defensive mechanic as it should be against hitscan.
But this was working, alien mobility was in a good place. But now marines move faster than skulks going backwards, and bites do not get rolled back like hitscan does. This is not an L2P issue and anyone that's saying that is just being thick and elitist (most likely while not even being apart of the elite in the game to begin with). The issues is that conceptually and mechanically the current balance makes no sense. You can cite NS1 all you want, but if you actually played it you'd know the hit detection was better and the aliens were a hell of a lot more mobile and resiliant. Yeah there was always that one guy that could kill a fade in 1 lmg clip in an open room, but dodging was a lot more viable for aliens and the gap got closed much faster.
It would be different if this mechanic was hard to use, or situational, or came at some cost, but none of that is true. It's easy, absurdly effective, abouses the weaknesses of this engine, and there's never a reason to not do it in combat. Anything in any game that is the absolute best option when it comes to confronting an enemy is too strong and needs to be reviewed.
Comments
And there is no way that marines won 50% of all competitive matches... at any level other than div1 aliens were winning at least 70% of the time.
You said it right. Any other level is public game for me. period. In fact i've seen more better public games than most of the game in D2/D3 that i could watch. Sometime on RedTV they even make jokes knowing in advance the goofs (and yes it is goofs) that gonna happen.
Build 251 and 252 are about a week old combined together. Let time to the work.
changing the UI + netcode so that alien biting is completely unpredictable and lacks feedback is not the solution to making aliens "harder"
You did not just do that... You even included the broken patch. Have some sense human. It's free weekend, you can't just go and compare it like that.
This sounds like 240 all over again, although not as extreme this time it seems. 240 put me off playing because of the vanilla rine vs vanilla skulk balance. Skulk vs rine was quite fair in 250.
I thought the balance problem was more to do with fade explosions? Which since the fades got hit with the nerf bat, why did they need to ruin skulk vs rine?
I wouldn't call them "casual." This isn't really a casual game to begin with. New players? Yes.
And they're gonna have to learn one way or another.
Micro-positioning? If Marines are already given a chance to position themselves where you're likely already detected/likely to die if you encounter them at such distances, then you better reevaluate your game-plan.
Skulks are meant for ambushing/sneaking, not engaging head-on.
Mind, the best thing for this discussion right now is someone that is good with Marines to figure out how fast one can move in this jumping system.
I'm gonna enjoy killing you as Skulk
HUEHUEHUEHUEHUEHUE
*Bangs head on keyboard*
Hate to break it to you but bunny jumping marines is essentially CORE gameplay. It's been around since NS1 and was pretty heavily nerfed in the start of NS2 if I recall correctly. It's basically the equivalent of SC2 Marine stutter stepping or any RTS scoot and shooting.
You take that away and you're going to have to buff the marines with default smart guns or something.
At least leave the marine in our view not dissappear from the screen once he bunny hops into space.
actually it's variable.
if marines are in a good position and relaxed/not time sensitive, then ambushing is nigh impossible because marines can afford to look in every cranny.
if marines are under the cosh and need to react quickly, they simply MUST throw caution to the wind. in which case ambushing is the best strategy, and this is the same from rookie pub play right up to the top tier. it's one of the main RTS fundamentals.
there are other viable strategies aside from 'direct combat' and 'ambush' too. such as avoiding marines entirely - harrassing forces marines to fall back and respond (aliens should have the upper hand on most maps with this due to their superior mobility). also, creating diversions/flanking group attacks are favourable for aliens due to the superior mobility and small marine clip size.
stop pretending that ns2 is an FPS.
Tactical FPS but a FPS none the less. You are right that on some occasions competitive players don't check corners, but this often happens because intel is collected showing the alien presence is on the other side of the map or is at a known location. In pubs however most competitive marines don't often feel the need to check corners as the aim is what can carry them, plus pub aliens always use the same locations for ambushes.
I agree. IMO this would be in the "direction" of the game. Even if it's just a little slow down.
If that's your single criterion of satisfaction with the game, I recommend replacing the game with a single coin toss. Heads, marines, win, tails, aliens win, there you go, perfect 50 percent balance.
When a wild animal attacks you, it pounces you and tears you to pieces on the ground. The idea that you jump-jump-jump while it nibbles your ankles is ridiculous, but back with Half Life 1 engine, you could not do much else. Before Counterstrike, every FPS was about jump-jump-jump, but 10+ years later, it does not feel so fresh.
it's not about hiding in corners though. i'd describe ambushing as simply hitting a player when they don't expect it - even if it's only a <1 second window. predicting exactly the right time to strike, using game sense e.g. when marine is coming through the doorway (knowing he's highly likely preparing to quickly check left, right or up) and therefore pounce in that 0.5 sec before he gets through the door into his 'on point' pose - usually catching him slightly disorientated.
maybe he predicts you'll pre-emptively pounce and catch you easily with prefire, but in that case his mind games were superior. ambushing is all about anticipation, mind games and game sense, generally the player under less pressure will have the advantage because the other player has fewer options.
anyway, my point is that ambushing is more complex than hiding in a corner (which is a complete and utter noob tactic) with no plan other than to attack when you see a marine, and ambushing most definitely works in every level of play in pretty much any FPS game - you can see this countless times in top tier comp games...
(been watching high level comp tournament matches since the days of UT, and (modestly lol) rate myself as a top tier player minus the motivation to play seriously - too old to take games seriously *sniff*)
My personal opinion, I don't like it, liked it the way before. *my two cents*
A marine has an undeniable advantage at range (a gun) where as the strafe jump makes the individual encounter less enjoyable since it levels the close combat playing field. Getting 2 unsuspecting bites in a marine' back only to have him leep out of range of the 3rd (sure para works for armor 0) and stays out of range as he jumps around to mow you down is very unsatisfying.
I find marine boring, as i can run around that map pre fade with little worry, while we may lose to some uncontrollable event (fadeball, bile rush, out skilled) as a marine in the field who checks corners, skulks are 13 bullets from death.
In general while I agree that alien are "easy" i would argue that its not "easy" because 1v1 is OP but because aliens inevitably end up working together far more then marines... this is because unlike in NS1 where aliens did not have a comm and only had Pres, now they have all the coordination of a comm, plus they have specialized support classes (gorge, lerk) and inevitably when working together they are much more effective (thus they win).
So until mariens work together (a balanced mix of SG/GL/Flame/exo) they will continue to be stomped (unless of coarse we nerf aliens to the point where no matter how well they work together they cant win) ....
Suggestion create a support class for the marines maybe who can build turrets (sure you loss asymmetry since thats like a gorge) and weld.... give rines an alternative to all going EXO, all going SG, all going JP, alll Going Flame... because thats what ends up happening rines end up with powerful weapons and the advantage and play stupid only to have a coordinated alien push come from no where and end the game...
But this was working, alien mobility was in a good place. But now marines move faster than skulks going backwards, and bites do not get rolled back like hitscan does. This is not an L2P issue and anyone that's saying that is just being thick and elitist (most likely while not even being apart of the elite in the game to begin with). The issues is that conceptually and mechanically the current balance makes no sense. You can cite NS1 all you want, but if you actually played it you'd know the hit detection was better and the aliens were a hell of a lot more mobile and resiliant. Yeah there was always that one guy that could kill a fade in 1 lmg clip in an open room, but dodging was a lot more viable for aliens and the gap got closed much faster.
It would be different if this mechanic was hard to use, or situational, or came at some cost, but none of that is true. It's easy, absurdly effective, abouses the weaknesses of this engine, and there's never a reason to not do it in combat. Anything in any game that is the absolute best option when it comes to confronting an enemy is too strong and needs to be reviewed.