Balance-Discussion

RammlerRammler Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
Balance is a big part in an asymmetrical game like Natural Selection 2. In my expirience in build 251 we got a little bit balance issues between the aliens and marines. In my opinion we have a lot more alien wins than marine wins.
This is not just an assumption. Looking on websites like ns2stats.org gives us an overview about win-ratings in public gaming AND competitive gaming.
The statistics are awful.

Win rating in 251 pub: Marines: 39.9%. Aliens: 60.1%

Win rating in 251 comp: Marines: 24.18%. Aliens: 75,82%


Especially the comp rating was crazy. looking in the forums of the comp players i found this thread:

http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/131308/div2-3-pcws-are-boring#latest

It seems we have a big balancing problem in division 2 and 3. Not even the pubs are suffering under the balancing problems, even the pro players have problems with the strong aliens.
but what can we do? i think its time to buff marines or nerf the aliens. since the balance mod in 250 and update in 251 marines got massive degradation: Weaker shotguns, armory does not heal armor, upgrades are more expensive, buy wielder all the time, e.t.c.

but aliens got buffed: faster skulks, early fades for 40. res, gorges for only 5. res, drifter can build and give "armory-enzym", more health with biomass, e.t.c.

i hope that some of the UWE-devs will read this and recognize the problems that we have in this game. in my opinion ratings like 24%:76% are far away from a good game

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Comments

  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members
    edited August 2013
    Fades become exponentially more powerful the less players there are in a game. One of the main reasons why lower player count games, like 6v6, is not balanced.

    Right now, I think 6v6 play is too contingent on Fade play. If Alien fades do well, they most likely win, if the marines manage to take out most of the alien fades (which you don't see often), the aliens will likely lose.

  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Res wrote: »
    Fades become exponentially more powerful the less players there are in a game. One of the main reasons why lower player count games, like 6v6, is not balanced.
    *bangs head on table untill brains fall out*
  • StrikerX3StrikerX3 Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168423Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    @Grissi what if the only way to have fades was from egg drops, instead of p.res? Of course, there would need to be some sort of p.res sink, perhaps by increasing trait costs on the fade. That way aliens cannot have 3-4 fades simultaneously spawning, it would need to be staggered or they would need to delay fades until they had all the eggs ready.
  • RammlerRammler Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    Its nice to hear some opinions from the comp. players because i have just expiriences in pub. games. but i spent a lot of team by working with the statistics, win-ratings and balancing. this ratings of 24%:76% are far away from normal. even 39%:61% in pubs are outside of the normal. do you really think this is just an issue of mobility? the statistics for divison 2 and 3 are a disaster
  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members
    Shotguns aren't what they used to be and it's much easier to constantly move as Fade now compared to the old shadowstep cooldown. A single blink thrust is all you need to escape. Once 6+ mins arrives, if Marines don't already have a good enough eco then they lose all ground to Fades.

    Maybe limit Alien spawning/increase respawn time so they are more heavily punished for dying in the early game.

  • BiteyBitey Join Date: 2012-05-06 Member: 151622Members, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
    Flame throwers were almost a good choice for fade balls prior to 251 :$

    -from a phone
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    Grissi wrote: »
    This is from competitive prespective.

    The biggest issue with the balance right now is connected to the alien resource flow, after they get to a certain point its near impossible to bring it back. This means that marines need to keep either an even game or an advantage throughout the game and have much less room for error. One of the biggest factor here is the ability to drop fade eggs. If marines don't manage to use their advantage before aliens manage to get a full fade ball out with overflow of tres then its really doubtful they will have any chance og coming back into the game.

    Marines have to keep up really strong zoning and postitonal advantage throughout the game, if a fade ball manages to pick out 2-3 marines without taking any major damage your map control will probably be lost. It can be near impossible to get back if aliens use their advantages and take down a phase gate, but it is possible if marines have enough pres to spend.

    Aliens also have a mobility advantage in the game, this allows the aliens to strike at any point in the map without much delay. That itself is ok but the problem is that they can use up skulks/gorges for baserushes and not get punished for it. Since there is no real gain outside mapcontrol for killing an oppoment both teams can suicide rush constantly later in the game with their base weapons/lifeforms. Aliens however gain more from this.

    The balance of combat is actually pretty good in the game, currently there is more of a logistical factor that are causing issues. Marines could however get a buff in their basic movement so they would not depend on medpacks to survive against aliens. If marines had the ability to evade skilled alien you would increase the skill ceiling giving marines more room to improve.

    I VERY much agree with marine movement. Two options is just not enough. And jumping down a ramp is usually not an option.

    Base speed UP
    Strafe acceleration UP
    Speed/acceleration upon landing from jump DOWN (or the same)
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    the game is balanced. just make your marines hit all their targets instead of missing. make them do this in every single engagement and successfully apply pressure on the alien team

    sounds ridiculous, but that's how marines are expected to compete they way the game is designed.
    before it was quite demanding also, but a bit more forgiving

    even looking at raw win rates is misleading.

    the stacked games will be 50-50
    if you just look at the balanced games with two "even" teams, it's even more lopsided in favor of alien
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    That would be quite interesting.
  • RammlerRammler Join Date: 2013-06-18 Member: 185607Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow
    biz wrote: »
    the game is balanced. just make your marines hit all their targets instead of missing. make them do this in every single engagement and successfully apply pressure on the alien team

    sounds ridiculous, but that's how marines are expected to compete they way the game is designed.
    before it was quite demanding also, but a bit more forgiving

    even looking at raw win rates is misleading.

    the stacked games will be 50-50
    if you just look at the balanced games with two "even" teams, it's even more lopsided in favor of alien

    You just look from the wrong side. Do you think the teams in Division 2 and 3 can not aim? This problem is deeper than just aiming. And by the way: We are no machines. Everyone can miss a target. If we would have a team with 100% aiming rate it would win ALL games. We should not try to see the 100% aiming marine as standard. as you can see on the win ratings the requirements on aiming and what marines should do is maybe too high
  • FrozenFrozen New York, NY Join Date: 2010-07-02 Member: 72228Members, Constellation
    matso wrote: »
    Personally, I've always wanted to let competitive teams bid for right to play aliens; both teams would simple bid how much extra tres they are willing to let the marine team have. The highest bid is used for all the games, and the team the bid the most gets to play alien (so if there is a tie-breaker game, the team that bid the highest will play aliens vs the boosted marines).

    This would have a couple of major advantages:
    1 - more games that are actually balanced
    2 - comp games can be balanced separately from pub games.
    3 - you would get an idea of just how unbalanced the game is (and at what skill levels - you might get different bids in div 1 compared to other divisions).

    This is only a way to balance a tie-breaker and it does not balance a map. Big difference if the tie-breaker is veil compared to another map, no? However I think it IS a great idea for the tie-breaker, knowing the map and auctioning alien play for the tie-breaker ONLY. Sure that could be interesting and at least better than what we have now where the team who plays alien first gets that advantage.
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited August 2013
    @biz
    If Grissi and Fana (both members of the best teams) said, there is something wrong with the balance, maybe there is something wrong?
    Who knows.

    And btw: i dont think "skillmovement" for marines is an solution for the current problems.
  • kalakujakalakuja Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159045Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter
    Bodyblocking fades enhanced
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Join Date: 2013-05-09 Member: 185176
    Wat? Are you even playing in pubs? I mean, not every two weaks I mean every day. Yeah it´s far from balanced but the problem is not the resourceflow, Alienunits are just too weak, regardless of the damage they can do, they are too easy to kill(75res Onos(yes it is 75res, you shouldnt even try to attack without upgrades) often gets killed by 2-3 Marines). Today I played a longer game and it was horrible, the Marines could defend anything and we had to get 6(!) Onos to get the base down.
    Especially the Lerk is very frustrating to play since it can be shot quite easily(everyone knows that rage if you are on low health, try to escape and get shot right bevor the saving corner)
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited August 2013
    There is a reason why all new/rookie player try to play marines. And if marineteam is full they must play classes they cant handle.
    Holy groundlerk, thats the reason for pub stalemates.

    Aliens too weak?
    So your balance formular is:
    More armor to onos, more hp for lerk and more speed for fades?
    75% pub alien wins are not enough it seems.
  • matsomatso Master of Patches Join Date: 2002-11-05 Member: 7000Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Squad Five Silver, Squad Five Gold, Reinforced - Shadow, NS2 Community Developer
    mattji104 wrote: »
    matso wrote: »
    Personally, I've always wanted to let competitive teams bid for right to play aliens; both teams would simple bid how much extra tres they are willing to let the marine team have. The highest bid is used for all the games, and the team the bid the most gets to play alien (so if there is a tie-breaker game, the team that bid the highest will play aliens vs the boosted marines).

    This would have a couple of major advantages:
    1 - more games that are actually balanced
    2 - comp games can be balanced separately from pub games.
    3 - you would get an idea of just how unbalanced the game is (and at what skill levels - you might get different bids in div 1 compared to other divisions).

    This is only a way to balance a tie-breaker and it does not balance a map. Big difference if the tie-breaker is veil compared to another map, no? However I think it IS a great idea for the tie-breaker, knowing the map and auctioning alien play for the tie-breaker ONLY. Sure that could be interesting and at least better than what we have now where the team who plays alien first gets that advantage.

    Hmm... well, maps are played in pairs, so I guess you could bid for each map rotation rather than just once. With enough games, you would then be able to figure out the per-map balance as well :-)
  • bizbiz Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167386Members
    Rammler wrote: »
    biz wrote: »
    the game is balanced. just make your marines hit all their targets instead of missing. make them do this in every single engagement and successfully apply pressure on the alien team

    sounds ridiculous, but that's how marines are expected to compete they way the game is designed.
    before it was quite demanding also, but a bit more forgiving

    even looking at raw win rates is misleading.

    the stacked games will be 50-50
    if you just look at the balanced games with two "even" teams, it's even more lopsided in favor of alien

    You just look from the wrong side. Do you think the teams in Division 2 and 3 can not aim? This problem is deeper than just aiming. And by the way: We are no machines. Everyone can miss a target. If we would have a team with 100% aiming rate it would win ALL games. We should not try to see the 100% aiming marine as standard. as you can see on the win ratings the requirements on aiming and what marines should do is maybe too high

    This is exactly my point. The developers have ridiculous expectations for how marines are expected to play relative to alien, and it's not working.

    When it does kind of work, it only works for the very very elite teams and the rest of the game is unbalanced

    What players need is the tools to be effective in different ways based on their individual skillsets. The problem is that anything field marines do (other than placing mines) is going to be limited by how well they can aim. the developers can only balance for some level of accuracy and anything outside that level will be broken.

    Meanwhile aliens have this wide variety of options and support roles... yet people cry about grenades and flame being "too easy"
  • godriflegodrifle Join Date: 2006-12-01 Member: 58815Members
    matso wrote: »
    Personally, I've always wanted to let competitive teams bid for right to play aliens; both teams would simple bid how much extra tres they are willing to let the marine team have. The highest bid is used for all the games, and the team the bid the most gets to play alien (so if there is a tie-breaker game, the team that bid the highest will play aliens vs the boosted marines).

    This would have a couple of major advantages:
    1 - more games that are actually balanced
    2 - comp games can be balanced separately from pub games.
    3 - you would get an idea of just how unbalanced the game is (and at what skill levels - you might get different bids in div 1 compared to other divisions).

    Yes please... in fact we should just start trying this out.
  • Zomb3hZomb3h Join Date: 2011-01-27 Member: 79241Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2013
    Grissi wrote: »
    This is from competitive prespective.
    If marines had the ability to evade skilled alien you would increase the skill ceiling giving marines more room to improve.
    Exo booster in any direction saved my butt during a lot of encounters since its implementation. The last time Marines had something that turned the tides of early battles back then was when rifle butt smacked skulks away at a considerable range before it was voted "OP."

    The introduction of momentum preservation when you jump on a higher surface was probably one of the best things Marines could get to potentially get an edge by out-maneuvering Kharaa players.

    Two suggestions for evasive techniques for base-marines I can think of is either making Marine juking more competent, and/or something similar to the Exo's 360 directional boosting with a cool-down long enough so that there is some form high-risk, high-reward aspect to the decision making.
  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
    Yeah thank god for exo booster....
  • MrChokeMrChoke Join Date: 2012-12-13 Member: 174990Members, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
    WELL, HERE WE GO AGAIN. The nightmares of build 239 are back full swing it seems. Actually, no... worse. Nice 24% win rate for marines. The worst I have ever seen. I stopped capturing my own stats quite a while ago after this game was fixed with build 240-something. Then comes 250 and 251 and I guess its time to keep track again. I had a bad feeling since 250 that aleins were winning too much again but I decided to believe I was just in a bad rut. Apparently not. The game is "broke" again.
  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    250 actually plays out much much better than 249. The balance in the both versions are quite similar but the gameplay is much more rewarding. If that patch had not been released I doubt we would have a active competitive scene by today.
  • MrChokeMrChoke Join Date: 2012-12-13 Member: 174990Members, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
    Grissi wrote: »
    250 actually plays out much much better than 249. The balance in the both versions are quite similar but the gameplay is much more rewarding. If that patch had not been released I doubt we would have a active competitive scene by today.

    Don't get me wrong, I really like all of the changes that 250 has as well. But balance is key and I guess the lock is broke right now if marines have a 24% win ratio.


  • GrissiGrissi Join Date: 2003-08-28 Member: 20314Members, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    There are more things important than balance. As fun as it is to have a game where both teams have 50% chance of winning its more enjoyable to have good mechanics to play with. Good, fun and quality gameplay mechanics is the key to make people stay in a game. Even if balance is 60-40% it would be ok if people can enjoy the games.

    But even though mechanics are usually more important than balance its true that the alien dominance has stayed around for a quite awhile. But Sewlek is still pretty new at this so I think we should see how the next content patch turns out before we start having to many worries. Hopefully with few big changes it will be enough to turn it around.

    Currently there are few mechanics that makes it really hard to balance up the alien play, one of the biggest being the fade factory and that its better to keep the alien commander out of the hive rather than in it. With that removed aliens will have to think more about how to keep their fades alive since they won't be getting new fades easily.

    About the tech explosion, we can't really say that's a issue. The reason is that its simply part of how the resource system is made for ns2. The chances of reworking the whole resource system is quite slim and I would not expect that to happen. What can be done however is to adjust the game to allow marines to force aliens to spend extra pres in the early game. Not as a part of a pres sink but rather by forcing lerk and gorges. It would be nice to see other mechanics fit in there but it must be a mechanic that makes the gameplay better, not simply something that players are forced to spend pres on. There are alot of more stuff I could add but I think this enough for now :).

    Now about Your comment Biz where you mention that accuracy is the most important skill for a marine, I don't agree with that. Its true that you need a pretty good level of accuracy but more importantly you need to know how to position yourself. Position and Movement is at least 50% of how good marines manage to get this really good accuracy you mention. Having good awareness, ability to coordinate with the marine next to you and predict the movement of your opponent is they key to victory. For example when fighting fades never do it in open areas when they have the whole room as their playing ground. You should try to force them to engage you where they have limited ability to move around allowing you to predict them with ease. The key difference between the strongest marines and the other marines is the ability to create these scenarios.
    You can actually see a good example of just how important positioning is in fps games by watching the recent quakecon. After you reach a certain level of aim it gets much more important to maximize your other skills to support it.
  • MistenTHMistenTH Join Date: 2003-01-01 Member: 11706Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    I like matso's idea of bidding tres. Doesn't split the game into 2 allows competitive to be self balancing.

    Its almost like the Bidding system the Clans use in the battletech universe, where commanders show how elite they are by giving up advantages to make it a fair fight, and to minimise unnecessary losses.
  • HeatSurgeHeatSurge Some Guy Join Date: 2012-09-15 Member: 159438Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited August 2013
    biz wrote: »
    Rammler wrote: »
    You just look from the wrong side. Do you think the teams in Division 2 and 3 can not aim? This problem is deeper than just aiming. And by the way: We are no machines. Everyone can miss a target. If we would have a team with 100% aiming rate it would win ALL games. We should not try to see the 100% aiming marine as standard. as you can see on the win ratings the requirements on aiming and what marines should do is maybe too high

    This is exactly my point. The developers have ridiculous expectations for how marines are expected to play relative to alien, and it's not working.

    When it does kind of work, it only works for the very very elite teams and the rest of the game is unbalanced

    What players need is the tools to be effective in different ways based on their individual skillsets. The problem is that anything field marines do (other than placing mines) is going to be limited by how well they can aim. the developers can only balance for some level of accuracy and anything outside that level will be broken.

    Meanwhile aliens have this wide variety of options and support roles... yet people cry about grenades and flame being "too easy"

    So what do you propose? Make aliens easy to hit, slow them down, reduce health, etc. etc.? Then the people who can actually aim trællol alien teams and whenever you have a decent marine team, they easily win. It's extremely unpleasant to play aliens against competent marines in the early game right now, especially without carapace, let alone with further nerfs.

    Aside from that discussion, IMO increasing the bullet size in 250 made marine gameplay an easy joke compared to what it used to be. I was sort of joking about adding glancing bullets if skulks get glancing bites in the 230 patches - and they finally kind of did :-D ... In effect, the larger bullets are like a larger bite cone - for marines :-) .

    I think the concept of melee vs ranged is fundamentally flawed and impossible to balance - but what is there now is actually not too bad.

    IMO, a pressing issue right now is that it feels like gorge is OP - imo the energy cost of heal spray should probably be at least double what it is right now, and should be obstructed the same way projectiles are obstructed by other marines. :-P There is no thought process (choice or timing) or consequence to heal spray spam - a gorge just needs to hold the button. And where there's no thought process, there's dull gameplay.

    Also, it's too easy to get full carapace too early in the game IMO, which compounds the gorge problem even more. Starting t.res for both sides needs to be decreased to 20 IMO. That, or also let marines get weapons 2 20 seconds into a round (the equivalent of dropping 2 shells and gorge-building them).
  • hf_hf_ Join Date: 2011-06-10 Member: 103639Members
    So the un-official official response from UWE regarding balance in this game is that the teams should bid on how much extra TRes to give the marine team?

    What?!
  • hf_hf_ Join Date: 2011-06-10 Member: 103639Members
    Here's an idea for balance test: make everything Natural Selection 1, and then slowly add more NS2 features to see what causes the most imbalance between teams.

    The whole res situation in this game is a joke. We have TRes and PRes, which is confusing enough, but the commanders don't earn PRes as commanders because UWE hasn't fully thought through NS2.

    Scrap everything, start from a perspective that you know works, and then add mechanisms that expand depth of strategy, playability, and enjoyment.

    I really think NS2 should go back to the basics and implement customization options for players that suits their gameplay style. For instance, marines could unlock weapon attachments such as scope upgrades and increased magazine capacity based on their player score, or aliens could unlock adaptations that make their skulk model smaller with decreased hitbox, but slightly less armor.

    Vanilla skulk and marine play is identical each match. Adding incentives to do well that also complements how you like to play the game makes gameplay more enjoyable. It also would help differ the game than the original.
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