No good reason to choose crag as first or second hive

Mr.GreedyMr.Greedy Join Date: 2012-07-21 Member: 154270Members
edited June 2013 in NS2 General Discussion
Its a good idea to try to adjust the other tech-trees. Even on old Beta-days I was preferring the shade hive. Unfortunately it was just the third hive in most of all games. But now the whole crag-path is ridiculously nerfed and will take the third-hive place. The "balancing"-objective failed hard in this case (anyway, I like most of the changes in this patch).

testet on a explore game:

tickrates :

Skulk : 6 HP (was 10)
Gorge : 6,5 HP
Lerk : 6 HP
Fade : 10 HP
Onos : 36 HP


time to get fully healed up:

Skulk : ~ 30 secs
Gorge : ~ 70 secs
Lerk : ~ 55 secs
Fade : ~ 70 secs (!)
Onos: ~ 70 secs

U can easily just run back to the hive, healing up, and return to your last location in half the time. So, whats the sense of regen ? It works in battle now so u gain a littel HP boost .....like carapace. In fact we have got now 2 skills with nearly the same function. Thats stupid.

Carapace is way to low now.

Skulk : 10 armor, 30 with carapace
Gorge : 75 armor, 100 with carapace
Lerk : 45 armor, 60 with carapace
Fade : 80 armor, 100 with carapace
Onos : 450 armor, 550 with carapace

The thing is that the gain of armor is so low that there is no appreciable impact on the gameplay ( except the skulk).

Whats only left is the healing wave and the drifter ability. Wasent that easy to testing that effectivly. Maybe someone else can tell if it is worthless or not?

So, tell me plz why its still a good idea to choose crag @ first or second hive. Maybe I have miss something.

In my eyes the gameplay have to much changed into walking walking walking and waiting for heal heal heal.(even for marines). Thats boring

Comments

  • RabidWeaselRabidWeasel Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5337Members
    edited June 2013
    Cara is still great for early game skulks but honestly I'd rather have crags as being a bit on the weak side than too good. "Has more hp" and "heals faster" are just less fun to play against, and less meaningful in terms of how they dictate strategy, than the other upgrades available, especially celerity and aura. Biomass has removed the absolute requirement for carapace in order to survive vs. upgraded marine weapons and that is a good thing.

    I should probably test exactly how regen works in game now, the changelog said it was 5%, BT had it at I think 7%, and I still don't know if the healing it does takes modified biomass hp into account.
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    edited June 2013
    Great post, really helps me decide on whether crag hive is actually useful. now i think it's perfectly not viable to use it. I never thought i would say this..
    But crag hive needs a buff. *puts on shades* Okay we can go home now shade enthusiasts

    (to admin:
    also i would like to point out that palagi is unfairly using the spam vote option invalidly and he be warned appropriately.)

  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Regen is still worthwhile. Cara on the fade is a woeful increase in effective hp, but on skulks is good. There is currently no reason always to pick one or two of the options (give it time for the meta to play out), and that's one of the major successes of 250.
  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members
    Lots of people losing lifeforms now since the patch. The crag upgrades are no longer super powerful like they once were. Just for the fact that cara means you are less likely to lose a lifeform makes it still a good choice but with the nerf to crags, I do find myself being much less effective with fade/onos and spending a lot more time sitting under a hive, healing.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Join Date: 2003-11-28 Member: 23688
    I find celerity most useful for early game. Celerity working in combat really helps against marines who know how to dodge.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2013
    Crag upgrades are weird conceptually. By their very nature they will either be so good that they are pretty much necessary for success (like they were in 249, carapace was at least) or they aren't really that good.
  • EmooEmoo Ibasa Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11198Members
    Crag upgrades are weird conceptually. By their very nature they will either be so good that they are pretty much necessary for success (like they were in 249, carapace was at least) or they aren't really that good.

    I don't think this is a huge issue for regen, it could be used for good hit and run tactics. But yeh carapace is kinda boring, I would not be upset if they just threw it out for something else more interesting.

  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    Maybe feign death could be an interesting replacement for carapace? Why was that removed again? You could make it so the amount of shells determine the time frame you remain invisible for instance.
  • ChrisAUSChrisAUS Join Date: 2012-11-17 Member: 172108Members
    A way to make Regen useful might be to steadily increase it's regen rate, from some base level to an ever improving amount. (Taking damage resets it back to base level?).

    Won't stop the Fades ducking into a vent after over-extending (me) for 5 seconds (before nerf) and coming back out on full hp but it might help marine teams who are quick to react to lifeform blocking.

    I also think solo Crags are basically useless. Heal rates are probably something like the OP regen numbers. Higher lifeforms are generally the only ones thinking about heal locations outside of hives, and they may as well go back to the hive since they will get full HP and be back in position quicker that way.

    Perhaps since Crags don't stack, but can heal 3 units/structure at the same time...if there was only 1 unit around then it would get the full x3 effect?
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    Regen is great. Working in combat isn't about a boost in total HP - it means you can catch a few stray bullets and not even care because it's already healing. Or bite an RT and heal all your health by the time you're done.
  • ChrisAUSChrisAUS Join Date: 2012-11-17 Member: 172108Members
    ^ I think the recent nerf to regen basically screwed that up. Skulks can switch between cara/regen as they please as time permits but the higher lifeforms need more bang for their buck in a way.

    Take the OP as an example as a Fade. You come in on a marine and you have Regen level 3. You take two big shots killing him and end up on ~30 hp. Currently that would take you around 65 seconds to heal up fully. This means that you are not engaging in combat at all, since one good shot kills you. If you wait 30 seconds you might be able to go in for a swipe, but as soon as you take any sort of damage you have to run, since it will put you back into the 1 shot territory.

    Now, if you pick cara instead you have more effective HP, and if you do get those 2 big shots and get put down to ~50 hp you can go back to the hive, fully heal and be back in the mix in well under 30 seconds. Basically regen went from OP to "I only need it when I do something really really silly and have to hide in a vent for 2 whole minutes" <---- this is me vs a mix of some US teams. (Before I even knew regen got nerfed wtf).

    That said, I think it's going to be tweaked (cara and regen) and hopefully a happy medium can be found where skulks don't rely on on hive path and lerk/fade rely on another.
  • RabidWeaselRabidWeasel Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5337Members
    His point was that if you blink in and don't get in a proper fight and just take some glancing hits you will be back at full hp in a few seconds. If you're nearly dead then yeah regen is pretty hopeless, and I find aura more useful for hit+run anyway because knowing exactly where the enemies are means you can usually get hit less anyway.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited June 2013
    @auron2 thanks but I always notice those. ;-)

    Ya i pretty much ignore regen now, given the faster speeds of lifeforms (quicker to just go back to hive)

    And can crags please heal faster? They no longer stack, and there's no shortage of grenades that can't be whipped back, meaning its incredibly easy to clear them out now.. Yet is painfully slow to heal.
  • carnage-wp-carnage-wp- Join Date: 2012-10-13 Member: 162250Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    No crag will not be the "3rd hive". It will always be the first hive in competitive play (for the most part) because carapace, while not having a big affect on higher lifeforms, has a significant effect on skulk play. The higher lifeforms are learning to adjust to what upgrades they think make them most effective, but as it stands, 3 shells allow a skulk 70/30 even on biomass 1. The 70/30 is extremely sought after as a skulk... because yeah, celerity is faster, but you're still paper thin. That hasn't changed.
  • Blarney_StoneBlarney_Stone Join Date: 2013-03-08 Member: 183808Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Another possibility would be to replace carapace with another upgrade (Focus?) and have armor scale with biomass.
  • kalakujakalakuja Join Date: 2012-09-11 Member: 159045Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter
    You will want that cara when you dive 2 saunamen sgs with your fades.
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members
    edited June 2013
    Regen works fine. Your statistics, Mr Greedy assume that the lifeform is dead and then becomes fully healed up? Realistically with the Onos you retreat near half HP, meaning you heal for 30 seconds (at most, usually combined with a crag). I have been using the regen ability along with every lifeform, including the Onos, thus far. I am frequently getting KD's above 20, even on servers with "good" players.

    Regen and Carapace are excellent for skulks. IMO right now Celerity is also excellent as it's easier to wallhop and also catch the side jumping marines. Aura is the best for the skulk right now.

    Regen is the best for the lerk, closely followed by aura (depending on your style - prefer more bite play than mere spikes?).

    You don't need Adrenaline for the fade, and I move marginally slower without Celerity. Phantom and Aura are superior to Regen but Regen is still very good - especially when you consider it's the best for the lerks, and very good for the skulk.

    Without doubt the most important evolution is Celerity for the Onos. No question. Phantom is second, and Regen third. However, by the time you have an Onos you should have the second hive up so in these terms IMO Shift hive is always second. I tend to prefer Crag first due to Regen and Crags.



    Edit: Regen should heal Fades a little faster (though I am reluctant because I am getting 30+ KDs with it - i suggest it for others). Carapace HAS to be buffed to an acceptable level for the Gorge and Onos. Increase it by 10 to make it more viable for the Lerk.

    We want to give players the CHOICE. Phantom and Aura are both excellent skills. Want to pick off enemies with ambushes? Go for Aura with your Skulk, Lerk, Gorge (to see ahead) and Fade. Want to defend your hive with an Onos? Go Aura. Want to do surprise attacks on the base? Pick Phantom. SIlent killer Fade? Phantom.

    So provide the same choices with Crag hive. Hit and run or all in until incredibly low?
  • naXynaXy Join Date: 2008-07-12 Member: 64618Members
    It seems like all sorts of healing were slowed down by a lot and its really boring to wait at a crag/hive etc. to heal up for a long time.
  • Mr.GreedyMr.Greedy Join Date: 2012-07-21 Member: 154270Members
    edited June 2013
    I think some people have a very bad sense of time when they read datas like that. Even when u are just "near half hp" -> 30 seconds of waiting without doing anything is incredible long for a videogame like NS2. Just take a clock and start counting every second till 30. You cant tell me that u are cool with it.

    You need a second and maybe a third healsource with regen (higher lifeforms). Anything else is a pain in the ass.

    @BestProfileName: learn to spot your enemys just by hearing them through the wall. Need to be trained but isent that hard. Silent marines are very rare. Phantom is the first choice for me.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    Neoken wrote: »
    Maybe feign death could be an interesting replacement for carapace? Why was that removed again? You could make it so the amount of shells determine the time frame you remain invisible for instance.

    Things should fit the tech path type, I think.

    Feigning death is a "perception and confusion" thing and would be more suited for the Shade path.

    Crag is "endurance and healing" and would rather go well with some special kind of armor that reduces certain types of damage (not universal, otherwise it would be OP) by a certain amount. Or perhaps an ability that makes all damage apply 100% to armor first and only starts to work off HP once armor has been fully cleared - including that the last hit that clears armor away still doesn't do any damage to HP, so you can basically take one Shotgun blast for free as Skulk.

    Shift is "movement and energy". It could probably do well with some kind of trait that works like an emergency adrenaline dose and has basically no effect at full HP but becomes more powerful the closer the lifeform is to death. It could be simple stuff like movement speed, attack rate and energy regeneration buffs. Using this trait would require players to put higher lifeforms more at risk if they wanted to profit from it.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    I'm still going to take cara, even if it isn't as significant before, those extra hitpoints CAN and probably WILL save your life at some point.
  • RabidWeaselRabidWeasel Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 5337Members
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    I'm still going to take cara, even if it isn't as significant before, those extra hitpoints CAN and probably WILL save your life at some point.

    If you're in a fight or series of fights that lasts for a grand total of more than 8 seconds after you first get shot as a fade then you will soak up more damage total before dying with regen than cara. I can only see those 40 more ehp being helpful if you get ambushed by 3 guys with shotguns round a corner or something.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    You shouldn't be in a fight for more than 8 seconds lol...
  • BestProfileNameBestProfileName Join Date: 2013-01-03 Member: 177320Members
    Mr.Greedy wrote: »

    @BestProfileName: learn to spot your enemys just by hearing them through the wall. Need to be trained but isent that hard. Silent marines are very rare. Phantom is the first choice for me.

    Of course I can do that...But the point with aura is that you can see their health and you know which marines to prioritise first.
  • DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members
    Bring back Focus and everything will be right in the world.
  • Mr.GreedyMr.Greedy Join Date: 2012-07-21 Member: 154270Members
    edited June 2013
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    I'm still going to take cara, even if it isn't as significant before, those extra hitpoints CAN and probably WILL save your life at some point.

    Of course its possible. Even when carapace gives just 1 extra armor. That 1 armor CAN and WILL probably save a life ;) .

    Seriously: I think its the better deal to take that 70 res from crag hive and just spend it for extra biomass. Free extra-HP for everyone + higher techlevel .

    Edit :

    Just tested it out in practise mode. 3 extra biomass costs 80 res (hive 40 res + 2 * 20 res upgrade) Fade gets 30 extra hp and Onos 150 ( + 10 and + 50 per level). Thats nearly the same amount of carapace. One more biomass-up and it IS even. Biomass just sucks for gorge and Lerk ( only +2 hp per biomass level WTF?!). For Skulks its ok (+4 hp per level)

  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, Belgium Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester
    CrushaK wrote: »
    Neoken wrote: »
    Maybe feign death could be an interesting replacement for carapace? Why was that removed again? You could make it so the amount of shells determine the time frame you remain invisible for instance.

    Things should fit the tech path type, I think.

    Feigning death is a "perception and confusion" thing and would be more suited for the Shade path.

    Crag is "endurance and healing" and would rather go well with some special kind of armor that reduces certain types of damage (not universal, otherwise it would be OP) by a certain amount. Or perhaps an ability that makes all damage apply 100% to armor first and only starts to work off HP once armor has been fully cleared - including that the last hit that clears armor away still doesn't do any damage to HP, so you can basically take one Shotgun blast for free as Skulk.

    Shift is "movement and energy". It could probably do well with some kind of trait that works like an emergency adrenaline dose and has basically no effect at full HP but becomes more powerful the closer the lifeform is to death. It could be simple stuff like movement speed, attack rate and energy regeneration buffs. Using this trait would require players to put higher lifeforms more at risk if they wanted to profit from it.

    Yeah, I just feel like carapace is sort of a lackluster kind of upgrade compared to some of the other upgrades. I thought it might be more interesting to have biomass be the main method of scaling up both HP and armor, while replacing carapace with some other sort of upgrade. It doesn't have to be feign death per se, it just came to mind.
  • Mr.GreedyMr.Greedy Join Date: 2012-07-21 Member: 154270Members
    edited June 2013
    Neoken wrote: »
    Yeah, I just feel like carapace is sort of a lackluster kind of upgrade compared to some of the other upgrades. I thought it might be more interesting to have biomass be the main method of scaling up both HP and armor, while replacing carapace with some other sort of upgrade. It doesn't have to be feign death per se, it just came to mind.

    I think thats the point. Carapace cannot be strong like in old days in reason of biomass. It feels like they have just split the extra HP/Armor u can gain between biomass and carapace. No wonder that carapace is so low.

    Crag is a defensive tech. Maybe we should put it in a greater "defensive" position. Regen could work with an increased effect on own territory. Carapace could give you a defensive buff that decreased incoming damage @ 20 % on infestation only (maybe with 1/2 effect outside of infestation). <--- that would automatically increase the crags itself because they would heal the carapace players with a 20% higher efficiency if I dont think wrong ^^ .

  • EmooEmoo Ibasa Join Date: 2002-12-20 Member: 11198Members
    How about something similar to hardened shields on immortals from SC2.

    The jist of hardened shields is that each individual attack can only do so much damage.
    So say the cutoff was 10 damage, an attack that does 10 or less damage does exactly that damage but if the attack would normally do 20 damage it's cut off to only do 10.

    Would be good protection against something like the GL and shotgun which do lots of damage in one attack but pretty useless against something like the LMG that does lots of attacks with little damage.

    Hell you could still call it Carapace.

    Mix that with other ideas such as, CrushaKs doing all damage to armor first or treating all damage as light attacks. I'm sure we could come up with an upgrade that's more interesting than just more health.
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