Siege Maps

HatchanHatchan Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-06-04 Member: 185478Posts: 2
Is anyone working on siege maps anymore? I use to play siege on NS1 back on the IAM-Clan server. It was some of the best games I have ever played. Iv been looking around, and I just cant find anything on it. I'm hoping silence is not my answer.
kendope
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Comments

  • xen32xen32 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Posts: 1,011 Advanced user
    There are at least 2 siege maps, hivesiege and veilsiege.
  • HatchanHatchan Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2013-06-04 Member: 185478Posts: 2
    Has any one seen any one running them on there server?
  • TheriusTherius Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Posts: 750 Advanced user
    I never ever understood the appeal of siege maps and I, perhaps unjustly, think very badly about people who like them.

    The first 5-10 minutes is just idling, the greatest part of the game is just combat with the leveling system taken out and it has an effective time limit to end it. Could someone try to explain the appeal for a cynical bonehead like me?
    AurOn2Ghosthree3RegnarebRedSword
  • xen32xen32 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2012-10-18 Member: 162676Posts: 1,011 Advanced user
    Hatchan wrote: »
    Has any one seen any one running them on there server?
    There was 32 (and 50 at some point, lol) slot server in russia for weeks, now it's online from time to time (was online yesterday).

    @Therius it's just lotsa fun
    I find time before doors are open very strategic, you got tons of res, yet you can't afford everything by 5 minute mark, so you gotta spend your res carefully. Should you get arcs, or exos, or jetpacks with gl, or block every hallway with armories? Then doors are open and brainless carnage begins!
  • TheriusTherius Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Posts: 750 Advanced user
    @xen32

    I only have experience of NS1 siege maps, so I cannot comment on the NS2 ones. But in NS1 you really could afford everything you wanted, and the only question was whether to go for JP or HA, sometimes you managed to get both.
    xen32 wrote: »
    brainless

    This is my keyword for what it was in NS1. Cannot find it to be a positive thing.

    Regnareb
  • DestherDesther Members Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Posts: 520 Advanced user
    Team Work and Tactics had a server up a few weeks ago which was full during peak times (20-24 player). The more classic map layout HiveSiege was really laggy, probably half the framerate of normal NS2. Veil Siege is an extension of normal Veil and it doesn't work that well for Siege. It also has too many RT, you can have Onos about 30s after the doors open.

    It's not as much fun to play as NS1 siege, probably needs a bit more refinement.
  • ellnicellnic Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2010-07-19 Member: 72559Posts: 915 Advanced user
    siege maps is what NS was all about for me, its what made me a NS fan all those years ago before combat took over pretty much every server. Still liked combat don't get me wrong I just personally preferred siege
  • unter_hosenunter_hosen Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11858Posts: 108
    Team Work And Tactics siege will be making an appearance very soon. Problem we had was it running 100% CPU causing the server eventually to overheat. I am hoping the new cooling I have just installed will allow us to run it again.
    Team Work and Tactics Server Admin

    Go and give the servers a try, if clans need a server, I'm sure we can help out :)
  • DogbiteDogbite Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2004-03-14 Member: 27329Posts: 90
    edited June 2013
    Siege maps were always more fun for me than NS1 combat maps...............just sayin' . Glad to see it's coming back on NS2.
    image
  • countbasiecountbasie Members Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Posts: 824
    edited June 2013
    Therius wrote: »
    Could someone try to explain the appeal for a cynical bonehead like me?

    Yes.
    When you had good players on both sides, there were two interesting situations that could happen:

    1. HA rush - kind of an all-in move. The interesting part of a HA rush was to not let the tiniest Alien lifeform pass, because it could set up a base behind your rows and own your marine start.

    2. Using JPs to defend until the siege doors open. The game was not over when the doors were open (most of the alien players gave up at that point), but the game had just started. The cool part were the DC and MC walls and the Fades that got energy and health from them if they managed to reach the siege room. These were extremely intense battles. Marines were trying to get the damn sieges up and the Fades had to choose between healing and attacking sieges while being under endless HMG fire constantly, and sieges already shooting the DC wall. One mistake from either side could end the game.
    It was a frag fest on the highest skill level in 1 room. ratatatatta-Blinkblinkblink-hit-blinkblinkblink-whhheou-hit-blinkblinkblink-hit-rattatattaa-fly-blink-hit-splat-hit-ratttatatata...you know. Being unconcentrated for 1 millisecond meant you were instantly dead. When both teams were good, these situations could last 10 minutes or even more.
    In years of FPS experience, these battles were some of the most intense I've ever had.


    The problem with siege maps is that you wait 15 minutes just to find out that your teammates suck and only 2 Fades try to get inside the siege room for the rest of the game.
    The battles outside of the siege rooms were not fun at all, I'll give you that.

    They were awesome in 5% of the games, the rest was...yeah idling 15 minutes and then owning/getting owned.

    I hope that helped.
    Post edited by countbasie on
    Pampelmuse
  • unter_hosenunter_hosen Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11858Posts: 108
    Well, Team Work And Tactics Siege is back online. I will be monitoring the temps of the CPU in the mean time, if things start getting out of hand, will have to shut it down. It is now water cooled with two 3.5A fans blowing through the rad.... not sure what else I can do to keep 4.6GHz of i7 3930K cool :/
    Team Work and Tactics Server Admin

    Go and give the servers a try, if clans need a server, I'm sure we can help out :)
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    I accidentally joined a server running siege maps a little while ago. I was getting something like 40fps max at the start, and this rapidly dropped to 10, and less in combat. For reference, I get about 120-130 at the start in vanilla, dropping to 40 in combat spikes in the late game (i7 860 at 3.8GHz, Radeon 5870).
    So, aside from the tedious 'gameplay,' it was also a completely unplayable lagfest that held absolutely no interest for me at all, I'm afraid.
    (I never liked siege in NS1 either, tbh)
    For all your gorge busting needs.
    It is very strange how some1 who spend so much time makeing videos to help mans, can fall and take miror image of dark ages bourgeoisie, outdated set of belifs
    How True.
  • WakeWake Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Posts: 723 Advanced user
    With all the respect due to people actually paying on their time to produce maps and stuff, imo, failure to go to brand new things is dangerous. In nostalgia's name, some people will enjoy playing it again, but conceptually, it can't last. They've already got tired of it, they will again faster.
    Freak out
  • TheriusTherius Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Posts: 750 Advanced user
    @countbasie

    Not sure that helped. You basically just described what I already knew, but with rose-tinted glasses, while I described it with bile oozing from my lips. Very little strategic choice and depth, and it all boils down to long and intense (tedious and brainless) combat. This combined with the retarded 10-minute limit before you can actually start playing just makes for a shitty experience for me.

    Perhaps I will just never understand.
  • countbasiecountbasie Members Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Posts: 824
    edited June 2013
    Therius wrote: »
    intense (tedious and brainless) combat.

    Perhaps I will just never understand.

    Sounds like you never enjoyed instagib in UT or Quake from time to time. If you did, you should have at least a slight understanding.
    Sometimes some people want to fck all the choices and depth of a game and have some matches that are only about pure reflexes in between. I never minded a siege map every 6th mapchange.

    Yes, it was tedious outside of the siege room, but not in the situations i described. Which happened not very often. So I completely understand people who don't like siege maps at all.

    BTW, I actually learned how the Tech-Tree works in siege maps :D they were a pretty good tutorial.
  • TheriusTherius Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Posts: 750 Advanced user
    The biggest problem I have with it is that neither NS1 or NS2 have very engaging combat mechanics. It doesn't cater well to deathmatch-style carnages, so taking out the depth makes only for a sub-par shooter. This is the same reason I do not and did not enjoy combat at all, but combat nonetheless feels less retarded than siege.
    Regnareb
  • DestherDesther Members Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Posts: 520 Advanced user
    Therius wrote: »
    The biggest problem I have with it is that neither NS1 or NS2 have very engaging combat mechanics. It doesn't cater well to deathmatch-style carnages, so taking out the depth makes only for a sub-par shooter. This is the same reason I do not and did not enjoy combat at all, but combat nonetheless feels less retarded than siege.


    NS is a fantastic corridor shooter even without the building elements. The strategy element in classic is still heavily outweighed by how well you aim (at pub level anyway) rather than which tech you chose so it doesn't add that much more depth to the fundamental shooting game.
    Just like how the best way to improve in Starcraft isn't to try and outwit your opponent by scouting or countering his strat, you just need to work on the basic mechanics and beat with a-move because you will have more units - IOW kill skulk and cap RT.
  • SoundFXSoundFX Members Join Date: 2003-08-21 Member: 20048Posts: 234 Fully active user
    countbasie wrote: »
    Therius wrote: »
    intense (tedious and brainless) combat.

    Perhaps I will just never understand.


    Sometimes some people want to fck all the choices and depth of a game and have some matches that are only about pure reflexes in between.

    You mean like combat?
  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Members Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Posts: 1,866 Advanced user
    SoundFX wrote: »
    countbasie wrote: »
    Therius wrote: »
    intense (tedious and brainless) combat.

    Perhaps I will just never understand.


    Sometimes some people want to fck all the choices and depth of a game and have some matches that are only about pure reflexes in between.

    You mean like combat?

    Exactly. I've always felt that Siege maps were like the other side of the Combat coin.
    Auto correct, I am tired of your shirt!
  • unter_hosenunter_hosen Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11858Posts: 108
    if you want to have a go at siege

    bonkers.teamworkandtactics.co.uk:27019
    Team Work and Tactics Server Admin

    Go and give the servers a try, if clans need a server, I'm sure we can help out :)
  • ellnicellnic Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2010-07-19 Member: 72559Posts: 915 Advanced user
    LONG LIVE THE SIEGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • GnubboloGnubbolo Members Join Date: 2007-11-01 Member: 62793Posts: 38
    siege maps in a 30 slots server.
    is a battle, a real battle.
    ellnic
  • kk20kk20 Members Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164592Posts: 263
    edited June 2013
    seige was good. It was an alternative to vanilla (and combat). Sure it isnt for everyone but then again choice is good.

    Last time I comm'd on the team work and tactics servers one of the maps was broken - there wasnt a second CC point (there was a room but no pad). Has that been fixed?
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Posts: 1,194
    Therius wrote: »
    The biggest problem I have with it is that neither NS1 or NS2 have very engaging combat mechanics. It doesn't cater well to deathmatch-style carnages, so taking out the depth makes only for a sub-par shooter. This is the same reason I do not and did not enjoy combat at all, but combat nonetheless feels less retarded than siege.

    Quake supposedly has the "most engaging combat mechanics" in a deathmatch. Even so, it's still 90% aim. Every shooter it's about aim. I suppose you really appreciate the subtle little things. But it doesn't make a game retarded lacking those.

    If you want a sub-par shooter, check out Call of Battlefields, where the winning move is strafe left or right accompanied by pressing M1 the right moment.
    image
  • bp2008bp2008 Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2012-11-28 Member: 173581Posts: 243 Fully active user
    edited June 2013
    Hi everyone.

    I'm afraid I am responsible for the hivesiege and veilsiege maps.

    When creating these, I found there are several difficulties adapting the siege idea to standard NS2, which might explain why nobody else has finished a siege map or siege mod.

    First of all, it is more than a bit complicated building a functional siege room that can't be entered or built in before the door opens. This is due to things like infestation reaching through walls, the nav mesh breaking or not breaking as desired at locked doors, and MACs/ARCs/Drifters not following the same collision rules as players. What I've found is that you can work around the worst of these limitations with careful map design. This is why the siege room in veilsiege is so ... strange. Some of those issues also apply to the other locked doors. Aliens can, for example, cyst through the locked doors at the start of the game and build on the other side if nobody is around to stop them.

    Second, NS2 doesn't run very well in intense battles that involve everyone on both teams and two commanders each with enough income to spam things like there is no tomorrow. This should change for the better with B249's speed improvements, I think.

    Third, the "siege" weapons in NS2 can move, which means if the siege room is directly connected to marine territory, marines can build up a stockpile of ARCs and steamroll the hives when the time comes without much of a buildup and no need to draw soldiers away from the front line.

    ----
    kk20 wrote: »
    seige was good. It was an alternative to vanilla (and combat). Sure it isnt for everyone but then again choice is good.

    Last time I comm'd on the team work and tactics servers one of the maps was broken - there wasnt a second CC point (there was a room but no pad). Has that been fixed?

    That map is not broken. The server admin simply included (perhaps by accident) the version of hivesiege intended to be run with NS2C. I built this particular flavor of hivesiege based on feedback from the first guy to run a siege server. The main differences are that marines only get one tech point (because they don't need a second one in NS2C) and the siege room door is replaced with a teleporter. The teleporter is 2-way for marines, the Siege Room -> Marine Start direction is disabled for aliens. Anyway the idea was that NS2C is much better suited for a siege map because its mechanics mimic those of NS1 where siege was originally envisioned.
    7P1fgAb.jpg
    CrazyEddie
  • bp2008bp2008 Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2012-11-28 Member: 173581Posts: 243 Fully active user
    if you want to have a go at siege

    bonkers.teamworkandtactics.co.uk:27019

    See the bottom of my post above, and thanks for hosting my maps :D
    7P1fgAb.jpg
  • TheriusTherius Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Posts: 750 Advanced user
    edited June 2013
    Therius wrote: »
    The biggest problem I have with it is that neither NS1 or NS2 have very engaging combat mechanics. It doesn't cater well to deathmatch-style carnages, so taking out the depth makes only for a sub-par shooter. This is the same reason I do not and did not enjoy combat at all, but combat nonetheless feels less retarded than siege.

    Quake supposedly has the "most engaging combat mechanics" in a deathmatch. Even so, it's still 90% aim. Every shooter it's about aim. I suppose you really appreciate the subtle little things. But it doesn't make a game retarded lacking those.

    If you want a sub-par shooter, check out Call of Battlefields, where the winning move is strafe left or right accompanied by pressing M1 the right moment.

    It's not the aim, of course I respect aim. But the fact that there are only two weapons for the marines (GL and FT don't really count) with no recoil, no spread, no projectile drop, no nothing, and there really is no engaging movement mechanic for the marines. The movement of aliens is slightly more engaging, but only for the fade and the lerk, and even those feel a bit lackluster in my opinion. The alien weapons deserve no mention, for obvious reasons.

    Can you really see NS2, or NS1 for that matter, competing with any other capable shooter if the combat mod was the only core gameplay? I know I'd rather be playing both Battlefield and any modern CoD over NS2 if it only came to the shooter mechanics.

  • unter_hosenunter_hosen Members, Constellation Join Date: 2003-01-05 Member: 11858Posts: 108
    bp2008 wrote: »
    That map is not broken. The server admin simply included (perhaps by accident) the version of hivesiege intended to be run with NS2C.

    Thats exactly what I had done. I have now fixed it, thanks for pointing out the mistake :)

    The problem with Siege is that the CPU gets raped within an inch of its life. It will use 100% of a core running at 4.6GHz and you just cant throw anymore at it, this is why there are very few Siege servers out there.


    Team Work and Tactics Server Admin

    Go and give the servers a try, if clans need a server, I'm sure we can help out :)
  • countbasiecountbasie Members Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Posts: 824
    edited June 2013
    Therius wrote: »
    Can you really see NS2, or NS1 for that matter, competing with any other capable shooter if the combat mod was the only core gameplay? I know I'd rather be playing both Battlefield and any modern CoD over NS2 if it only came to the shooter mechanics.

    Focus Cara Fade vs LVL3 Shotgun in NS1 was pretty awesome for pure deathmatch.
    Combat mode was (before xmenu appeared) still pretty good in general. Xmenu made it boring.
    Of course classic NS mode is what makes NS worth playing overall.

    EDIT: Only talking about aliens movement: Hell, I'd throw CoD/Battlefield out of the window just to Bhop in NS for half an hour.
  • kk20kk20 Members Join Date: 2012-10-30 Member: 164592Posts: 263
    Hivesiege on teamworks wont let you build a res node on one of the marine locations (invalid placement).

    Second cc builds though.
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