Making unfair spawns "more fair"

MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate placesValencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
edited May 2013 in Competitive Play
The other day someone (sorry I don't remember who it was) said that for these maps with unfair spawns the game should just repeat the spawns for both teams. This actually makes sense so I was thinking on ways of implementing it and possible downsides.

The easiest way is repeating the spawns since map load so both teams can think of their strategies with enough time (if it was chosen on "ready", then saved, the second round would be easier and you couldn't prepare in the same way for the first one).

Then again, this might cause lots of draws (ie. Warehouse spawn). The other thing is that we could "lock" it to maps with these kind of spawns and maps like summit could be played default.

This is easy to get into my already existing spawns mod (although I'd probably need the ENSL approval if I wanted to include it there), so, what do you think? Additional ideas? Is this a horrible thing and I should get shot in the street?
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Comments

  • PaLaGiPaLaGi Join Date: 2008-01-03 Member: 63331Members, Constellation
    Always feel bad when I see teams spawn in shipping on tram or fabrication on descent.

    I would like to see maps tweaked and balanced much more often (felt like it took forever for changes to happen on veil). I assume this is what the map testers group helps with. Then again, I am not a mapmaker or have the skills to make changes frequently and test them, so easier said than done I'm sure.
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
    Well, this would be a band-aid fix to make maps more fair until they're better balanced.
  • JonacrabJonacrab Join Date: 2003-08-02 Member: 18705Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester
    I would like to see maps tweaked and balanced much more often

    Be more vocal about the problems you see with maps, and get more people involved in the discussion. I have had a hell of a time getting constructive criticism in which to make decisions about maps. I've even directly contacted high level competitive teams in order to discuss what they see as problems only to be completely ignored by them. Problems are not always as obvious as they seem, and the lack of feedback keeps changes from being made. Its hard to see one person say "oh this is a problem" and make changes based on that feedback. If more people were involved it would be a lot easier to gauge the problems and make changes. Otherwise the only option is to let things playout until we see persistent problems, and then make changes. If there isn't discussion, change wont come quickly.
  • WobWob Join Date: 2005-04-08 Member: 47814Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Mendasp, it's a good idea to fix spawns for both rounds in one game, but not to fix it every game. We don't want games to me even more monotonous! Keep all the spawns available but yeah, if aliens start warehouse, then the aliens the next round should too.
  • ezekelezekel Join Date: 2012-11-29 Member: 173589Members, NS2 Map Tester
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Static spawns lol...

    Anyway, until we get the maps balanced further, Mendasp's suggestion is the best fix. Repeating spawn locations will not effect the game that much.
  • vartijavartija Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60193Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow
    If you are going to make fixed spawns why not always make good spawns for both team instead of bad ones?
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    afaik Tram is done with changes. Olmy is focusing on new maps, any changes done to Tram will have to come from the community.

    That said, I was wondering the other day how it might play if you simply remove the techpoint and RT from server room for an "NSL" version of the map. Because top spawn is definitely an issue.
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
    vartija wrote: »
    If you are going to make fixed spawns why not always make good spawns for both team instead of bad ones?
    I'm not making fixed spawns, they are still random, but the first random choice of spawns will persist until map change. Still, I could easily exclude "bad" spawns and that wouldn't require me to write a single line of code, but I think I prefer this solution to that one.
    rantology wrote: »
    afaik Tram is done with changes. Olmy is focusing on new maps, any changes done to Tram will have to come from the community.

    That said, I was wondering the other day how it might play if you simply remove the techpoint and RT from server room for an "NSL" version of the map. Because top spawn is definitely an issue.
    I don't think the techpoint itself is the problem, with a Warehouse spawn you can get 4-5 harvesters and it's not too hard to defend, which is the actual issue.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    edited May 2013
    You almost always hold server RT/TP with little contest when you cut the line down the middle from Ore to Mez, removing server tp/rt would at least alleviate some of this issue. I think the North Tunnels--> Mez vent is also still quite powerful.

    Another option is removing server as a spawn and this frees you up to remove Mez RT ?

    I'm not really sure what else to suggest. At the very least, the consistent spawns idea from round to round in the OP is a good start.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    While I definitely agree that this idea is more "equal" isn't part of the beauty of the game being able to adapt to your spawn conditions?
  • joshhhjoshhh Milwaukee, WI Join Date: 2011-06-21 Member: 105717Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    edited May 2013
    I agree with mendasp. The actual tech point is not the problem. Its the whole entire design of the north side of tram that gives aliens too many (easily defended) rt's.

    Repeating spawns at least gives both alien teams the advantage if one team spawns north.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    While the concept is fine, I feel the implementation would be problematic because of potential disagreements on what is considered 'bad spawns'.
    joshhh wrote: »
    Repeating spawns at least gives both alien teams the advantage if one team spawns north.
    I like this better as it ensures matches are less biased by spawn location. For example, if your opponent spawns in warehouse as aliens at least you have the knowledge that you will spawn in warehouse during your alien round.
  • vartijavartija Join Date: 2007-03-02 Member: 60193Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow
    Mendasp wrote: »
    I'm not making fixed spawns, they are still random, but the first random choice of spawns will persist until map change. Still, I could easily exclude "bad" spawns and that wouldn't require me to write a single line of code, but I think I prefer this solution to that one.

    Ok. I just thought I misread you at first time since there is one huge flaw. On second round both teams then have the information of other team's spawning position before the game even starts.
  • Racer1Racer1 Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Members
    edited May 2013
    A number of games (including RTCW) have a feature like this where two round are played with switched teams. If both teams win one round, then the winning team is determined by giving victory to the team with the fastest win time. The problem with this is that if team A wins in 8 minutes, then team B must win before 8 minutes or they lose the match no matter what the result -- sometimes causing players to concede after 8:01.
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
    vartija wrote: »
    Mendasp wrote: »
    I'm not making fixed spawns, they are still random, but the first random choice of spawns will persist until map change. Still, I could easily exclude "bad" spawns and that wouldn't require me to write a single line of code, but I think I prefer this solution to that one.

    Ok. I just thought I misread you at first time since there is one huge flaw. On second round both teams then have the information of other team's spawning position before the game even starts.
    The idea is to make whatever spawns get chosen during map load be persistent. This has no downsides that I know of.
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    rantology wrote: »
    You almost always hold server RT/TP with little contest when you cut the line down the middle from Ore to Mez, removing server tp/rt would at least alleviate some of this issue. I think the North Tunnels--> Mez vent is also still quite powerful.

    Another option is removing server as a spawn and this frees you up to remove Mez RT ?

    I'm not really sure what else to suggest. At the very least, the consistent spawns idea from round to round in the OP is a good start.

    What about removing platform RT? That would mean if you spawn top you have the advantage of the close TP, but you'd get one less RT with it. Platform is probably the easiest RT to defend (as aliens at least) imo.. mezz has always seemed fairly easy to harass unless it's got crags/gorge support.
  • CragChristCragChrist Join Date: 2013-05-15 Member: 185239Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I agree that the mezz-plat vent is too powerful. It lets aliens move through 3 rooms instantaneously, 3 of which contain RTs and one of which is a TP. I can't think of any vent that is as close as powerful as that.

    While it is true that either side will know their spawn and their enemy's spawn on the 2nd round, this makes the first round require some form of ghosting to instantly acquire the knowledge of a spawn. A minor risk or cost of res, but nonetheless it is there. That wouldn't happen on the 2nd match. If teams knew their spawn after ready declaration and then could be given a time extension or 2nd ready phase, this makes both the 1st and 2nd instance of the matches exactly the same, no drawbacks, and also doesn't require static spawn.
  • 3del!3del! Join Date: 2009-05-11 Member: 67386Members
    edited May 2013
    If this would be implemented, you could allow close spawns again as well. Thus i think it might even add variety. And if you could already see in the pregame where the spawns will be, it would also be fair overall.
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
    edited May 2013
    CragChrist wrote: »
    While it is true that either side will know their spawn and their enemy's spawn on the 2nd round, this makes the first round require some form of ghosting to instantly acquire the knowledge of a spawn. A minor risk or cost of res, but nonetheless it is there. That wouldn't happen on the 2nd match. If teams knew their spawn after ready declaration and then could be given a time extension or 2nd ready phase, this makes both the 1st and 2nd instance of the matches exactly the same, no drawbacks, and also doesn't require static spawn.

    Not really, you can scout where your enemy is before typing "ready". This is why the spawns are decided on map load.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    edited May 2013
    I would rather see static spawns or more spawn location exclutions on problematic maps, than a the suggested band-aid in the OP. The problematic spawns don't play better by forcing it on both teams.

    Something like this:
    Tram - alien randomly in Warehouse/Server Room | marines static in Shipping
    Veil - alien static in Cargo

    I'm not sure about Descent, haven't played it too much after the recent changes, energy flow/fabrication is not as bad for aliens as it used to be.
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
    swalk wrote: »
    I would rather see static spawns or more spawn location exclutions on problematic maps, than a the suggested band-aid in the OP. The problematic spawns don't play better by forcing it on both teams.

    Something like this:
    Tram - alien randomly in Warehouse/Server Room | marines static in Shipping
    Veil - alien static in Cargo

    I'm not sure about Descent, haven't played it too much after the recent changes, energy flow/fabrication is not as bad for aliens as it used to be.
    Those are pretty horrible static spawns. Also I don't think there's any reason to have static alien spawns in Veil right now.
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    Mendasp wrote: »
    swalk wrote: »
    I would rather see static spawns or more spawn location exclutions on problematic maps, than a the suggested band-aid in the OP. The problematic spawns don't play better by forcing it on both teams.

    Something like this:
    Tram - alien randomly in Warehouse/Server Room | marines static in Shipping
    Veil - alien static in Cargo

    I'm not sure about Descent, haven't played it too much after the recent changes, energy flow/fabrication is not as bad for aliens as it used to be.
    Those are pretty horrible static spawns. Also I don't think there's any reason to have static alien spawns in Veil right now.
    Forgot about the recent veil changes when I was writing my previous post, so I take that back. What's so horrible about removing an extremely terrible alien spawn on tram and making it the marine static spawn? JUST LIKE THE MAP WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED FOR ;)
  • CragChristCragChrist Join Date: 2013-05-15 Member: 185239Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Mendasp wrote: »
    Not really, you can scout where your enemy is before typing "ready". This is why the spawns are decided on map load.

    Exactly my point though. First and second match are started with the same knowledge. The second match is always dependent upon the first if we do your implementation. This is why the first match must have that kind of free information to be completely fair.
  • ritualsacrificeritualsacrifice Join Date: 2012-11-14 Member: 171148Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited June 2013
    swalk wrote: »
    What's so horrible about removing an extremely terrible alien spawn on tram and making it the marine static spawn? JUST LIKE THE MAP WAS ORIGINALLY DESIGNED FOR ;)

    Have you not experienced the 5 rt build on north side? Even if you manage to harass the alien RT's and kill 2 of them, they still have enough RT's to out-tech you.

    I've heard many many times that as marines you should try to keep a 5 to 3 ratio of RT's, 5 of yours for every 3 of theirs. When the aliens expand and take 5, in order to keep that ratio you have to kill 2 of theirs. While you're killing 2 of theirs, you're going to lose at least one of yours, but most likely 2-3. Since the map only has 10 Rt's, if the aliens start north side and cap all the rt's from ore-mez, there's really nothing you can do as marines even if you keep up constant pressure.

    *edit*

    What about something like this? You could have the mez vent come out under the power-node area in hub + remove the platform RT, It would keep the mez vent useful without giving too much of an advantage, and would also require the marines to be more defensive with their phase gates in hub. You could then have the aliens static spawn in warehouse so they can't get to the mez vent as quickly. It would allow the aliens to be more careful about scouting hub since you could use the props around the (relocated) vent as cover, and use the vent as an escape route. Also it would make that Observation RT less of a clusterfuck at the beginning since it would be harder for the aliens to get there undetected.

    The static spawn in Warehouse + the removal of platform RT means the aliens could play it safe and expand towards server without such a large advantage, or they could be a little riskier and go towards repair for their first 3 RT's

    5z2p0o.jpg
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
    CragChrist wrote: »
    Mendasp wrote: »
    Not really, you can scout where your enemy is before typing "ready". This is why the spawns are decided on map load.

    Exactly my point though. First and second match are started with the same knowledge. The second match is always dependent upon the first if we do your implementation. This is why the first match must have that kind of free information to be completely fair.
    Uh... my implementation is exactly that, both matches have the same free information.
  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
    edited May 2013
    Sigh, quotes.. Nevermind.
  • LagLightLagLight Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149708Members
    Isn't there an advantage to keeping your hive location mostly hidden in competitive play, for instance on maps like NS2_Veil? The Marine players in round two would instantly know which side of the map to pressure and which side to expand making it harder for the Aliens.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    To this day there have always been various exploits available to figure out the enemy spawn in the first 2 seconds of a game, there is no such thing as hidden spawns in ns2 so that's fairly negligible.
  • MendaspMendasp I touch maps in inappropriate places Valencia, Spain Join Date: 2002-07-05 Member: 884Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Retired Community Developer
    LagLight wrote: »
    Isn't there an advantage to keeping your hive location mostly hidden in competitive play, for instance on maps like NS2_Veil? The Marine players in round two would instantly know which side of the map to pressure and which side to expand making it harder for the Aliens.

    Besides what rantology says, I wouldn't apply this to veil right now. I was thinking of tram mostly, maybe descent.

    Also both rounds would have the same information (you can scout pre-game), so there would be no difference between round one and two.
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