Combat Mode Relaunch

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Comments

  • JibrailJibrail Join Date: 2009-04-16 Member: 67200Members
  • ZEROibisZEROibis Join Date: 2009-10-30 Member: 69176Members, Constellation
    rantology wrote: »
    Jibrail wrote: »
    a res model instead of XP points ( xp will still be in but will work differently ) so players will buy everything with res, now most upgrades will stay with you throughout the game but if you die you lose your class/weapon and the res you spent wont be refunded.

    Dislike this idea, it kind of deviates from the entire idea of the oldschool combat model. If I wanted consequences for losing a lifeform/engagement, I would play vanilla NS2.


    also having every server op having their own set of balance rules would be rather annoying imo, kind of like how every server had their own version of AMX mod for combat back in NS1. It was horrible and often times the people running them were very bad at judging balance, so not only would it be very confusing, it would also be horrible gameplay.


    Under this logic we should not let people run their own restaurants b/c they will all have different food and some of them will suck. Does having 1 group determine the food for everyone sound like a good system? A system where there is no freedom to try different things for better or worse is a system doomed to fail. Servers that run with shitty balance will not get players and will go out of business just like a restaurant that serves crappy food. Trying to "protect" all the stupid people from making bad decisions is not a solution to anything.
  • pipe7pipe7 Join Date: 2013-04-13 Member: 184794Members
    Let me first start off by saying that I really appreciate your work and that I enjoy playing your mod more than the unmodded version. At this time, the game play is a bit unbalanced, and I understand that balancing it is not an easy task. I think that you guys should attempt to bring back an exo suit of some kind, and maybe even the onos, imo the fade is much more powerful in the right hands than an onos can ever be, and yet you guys have not changed it around at all.
  • FaustFaust Join Date: 2004-11-18 Member: 32852Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    ZEROibis wrote: »
    rantology wrote: »
    Jibrail wrote: »
    a res model instead of XP points ( xp will still be in but will work differently ) so players will buy everything with res, now most upgrades will stay with you throughout the game but if you die you lose your class/weapon and the res you spent wont be refunded.

    Dislike this idea, it kind of deviates from the entire idea of the oldschool combat model. If I wanted consequences for losing a lifeform/engagement, I would play vanilla NS2.


    also having every server op having their own set of balance rules would be rather annoying imo, kind of like how every server had their own version of AMX mod for combat back in NS1. It was horrible and often times the people running them were very bad at judging balance, so not only would it be very confusing, it would also be horrible gameplay.


    Under this logic we should not let people run their own restaurants b/c they will all have different food and some of them will suck. Does having 1 group determine the food for everyone sound like a good system? A system where there is no freedom to try different things for better or worse is a system doomed to fail. Servers that run with shitty balance will not get players and will go out of business just like a restaurant that serves crappy food. Trying to "protect" all the stupid people from making bad decisions is not a solution to anything.

    To be fair, combat would be more comparable as a franchise restaurant. Typically franchise operations stay consistent with each other. Ex: McDonalds typically offers the same menu throughout all stores in a region.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    dat analogy


    (no comment, lol)
  • ZEROibisZEROibis Join Date: 2009-10-30 Member: 69176Members, Constellation
    Faust wrote: »
    ZEROibis wrote: »
    rantology wrote: »
    Jibrail wrote: »
    a res model instead of XP points ( xp will still be in but will work differently ) so players will buy everything with res, now most upgrades will stay with you throughout the game but if you die you lose your class/weapon and the res you spent wont be refunded.

    Dislike this idea, it kind of deviates from the entire idea of the oldschool combat model. If I wanted consequences for losing a lifeform/engagement, I would play vanilla NS2.


    also having every server op having their own set of balance rules would be rather annoying imo, kind of like how every server had their own version of AMX mod for combat back in NS1. It was horrible and often times the people running them were very bad at judging balance, so not only would it be very confusing, it would also be horrible gameplay.


    Under this logic we should not let people run their own restaurants b/c they will all have different food and some of them will suck. Does having 1 group determine the food for everyone sound like a good system? A system where there is no freedom to try different things for better or worse is a system doomed to fail. Servers that run with shitty balance will not get players and will go out of business just like a restaurant that serves crappy food. Trying to "protect" all the stupid people from making bad decisions is not a solution to anything.

    To be fair, combat would be more comparable as a franchise restaurant. Typically franchise operations stay consistent with each other. Ex: McDonalds typically offers the same menu throughout all stores in a region.

    If this was a franchise then the setup would be as the original from ns1 where as we did have control over these things...

    What instead is ultimately going to occur here is that server operators will need to make their own branches in the workshop all of the same mod with their settings edited ed into the files directly. So while yes I understand where your going here but what your going to end up with will not be a bunch of McDonalds instead your going to have everyone copy McDonalds and call it DcDonalds and then do what they want and unlike in the real world there is nothing to stop this.

    So rather than force operators to branch out and have 10 different physical versions floating around it is more logically to just have 1 version with configuration options. Imagine if every server needed to run its own version of DAK just to configure shit, not very fun.
  • woodywoody SoCal Woody56 Join Date: 2004-02-14 Member: 26541Members

    JimWest wrote: »
    We can't and won't make every value editable via a command for admins.
    Making such a system would take more time then creating the whole combat mod.

    Just some general things like time limit, maybe some upgrades (enable, disable onos, buildings).

    Too bad NS2 is not as easy as amxx was with NS, Keep up the good fight all :)

    Her is my old plugin.ini when I shut down my co / mvm server

    ; AMX Mod X plugins - KcK bot server

    ; Admin Base - Always one has to be activated
    admin.amxx ; admin base (required for any admin-related)
    ;admin_sql.amxx ; admin base - SQL version (comment admin.amxx)
    ; Basic
    admincmd.amxx ; basic admin console commands
    adminhelp.amxx ; help command for admin console commands
    adminslots.amxx ; slot reservation
    ;multilingual.amxx ; Multi-Lingual management
    ; Menus
    menufront.amxx ; front-end for admin menus
    cmdmenu.amxx ; command menu (speech, settings)
    plmenu.amxx ; players menu (kick, ban, client cmds.)
    telemenu.amxx ; teleport menu (Fun Module required!)
    mapsmenu.amxx ; maps menu (vote, changelevel)
    ; Chat / Messages
    adminchat.amxx ; console chat commands
    antiflood.amxx ; prevent clients from chat-flooding the server
    scrollmsg.amxx ; displays a scrolling message
    imessage.amxx ; displays information messages
    adminvote.amxx ; vote commands
    ; Map related
    nextmap.amxx ; displays next map in mapcycle
    mapchooser.amxx ; allows to vote for next map
    timeleft.amxx ; displays time left on map
    ; Configuration
    pausecfg.amxx ; allows to pause and unpause some plugins
    ; NS Specific plugins
    idlekicker.amxx ; kicks idle players
    nscommands.amxx ; extra commands for Natural-Selection
    unstuck.amxx ; Free stuck players (engine & ns modules required!)
    ; Custom - Add 3rd party plugins here
    amx_selfweld.amxx ;debug
    ;amx_adminvoice.amxx
    ;---- B ----
    bouncygrenades.amxx
    ;Bullet_Whizz.amxx
    bot_combat_building.amxx
    ;---- C ----
    combat_buildings.amxx
    classctrl.amxx
    c_limitplus.amxx
    commannouce.amxx
    co_voice_comm_block.amxx
    crabmapmanager.amxx
    ctb.amxx
    ;---- D ----
    dmgdoors.amxx
    donateres.amxx
    dcnest.amxx
    disableMTSOF.amxx
    ;---- E ----
    extralevels3.amxx
    ;---- F ----
    fireworks3.amxx
    ;---- G ----
    glow.amxx
    glblock.amxx
    ;godModeForBots.amxx
    ;---- H ----
    hiveccstatus.amxx
    hive-cc_protect.amxx
    heavyjp.amxx
    Handheldsiege.amxx
    ;---- I ----
    invis.amxx
    instant_respawn.amxx
    ;---- J ----
    jedigrab.amxx ;debug
    jr_ragequit.amxx
    ;---- K ----
    killer_hp.amxx
    kp.amxx
    ;---- L ----
    loadingsound.amxx
    latejoin.amxx
    lerkspike.amxx
    ;---- M ----
    ;mvm_allinone.amxx
    more_mines.amxx
    ;medarmory.amxx
    me_superlift.amxx
    ;me_mines.amxx
    me_helper.amxx
    ;me_meal.amxx
    ;---- N ----
    ;NSBalancer.amxx
    ns_parachute.amxx ;debug
    nightvision.amxx
    ;ns_weaponswitch.amxx
    ;ns_bot_rtd.amxx
    ;nscrashfix.amxx
    ;---- O ----
    ;overview_fixer.amxx
    ;---- P ----
    ;paradmg.amxx debug
    pingkicker.amxx debug
    protectcomm.amxx
    public_rules.amxx
    ;---- R ----
    rtd.amxx ;nr
    ;amx_rocket.amxx
    ;rr_nofire.amxx
    rrmusic.amxx
    ;---- S ----
    ;serverswitcher.amxx
    ;sparks.amxx debug
    ;spawninvfun.amxx debug
    ;ServerRules.amxx ;using public_rules.amxx
    ;---- T ----
    ;teamselector.amxx
    ;teamDevour.amxx
    teamrestrictns.amxx
    ;---- U ----
    ;upgradestatus.amxx
    ;ut_sounds.amxx
    ;---- V ----
    votemapaftercrash.amxx
    ;---- W ----
    ;ns_WeaponSwitch.amxx debug
    wb_control.amxx

  • MCMLXXXIVMCMLXXXIV Join Date: 2010-04-14 Member: 71400Members
    The problem is that with the old combat mod infrastructure getting even just one more editable value into the config file takes a lot of developer effort and potentially breaks existing stuff, and then you have the problem of syncing up those values between the server and the client which is much harder because of how haywire the old NS2Combat code is.

    It should be a lot easier to do this kind of thing in the new mod architecture, so I'll definitely try and get a system like this in place when we do the Combat relaunch. Your comments have not gone unnoticed, trust me!
  • MCMLXXXIVMCMLXXXIV Join Date: 2010-04-14 Member: 71400Members
    edited April 2013
    Just an FYI, I've written a section about the planned release of the new Combat architecture in the Xenoswarm announcement thread:

    http://forums.unknownworlds.com/discussion/129797/xenoswarm-a-new-mod-from-the-ns2combat-team
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Damn, no onos or exos made me really happy (as both sides). Shame :(
  • JibrailJibrail Join Date: 2009-04-16 Member: 67200Members
    edited April 2013
    The changes we made resulted in each team having 2 oni/exos I think that isn't such a bad number compared to how chaotic it was before that.
    Since this is working relatively well at this time I don't see a change in next patch to super units, instead I will focus on smaller things and maybe fades.
  • SecuritySecurity Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2013
    MCMLXXXIV wrote: »
    The problem is that with the old combat mod infrastructure getting even just one more editable value into the config file takes a lot of developer effort and potentially breaks existing stuff, and then you have the problem of syncing up those values between the server and the client which is much harder because of how haywire the old NS2Combat code is.

    It should be a lot easier to do this kind of thing in the new mod architecture, so I'll definitely try and get a system like this in place when we do the Combat relaunch. Your comments have not gone unnoticed, trust me!

    Looking forward to it. Thanks.

    rantology wrote: »
    dat analogy


    (no comment, lol)

    He is right with what he is trying to say though, which still is: People like different things. So let everyone have what they want. ;]
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Jibrail wrote: »
    The changes we made resulted in each team having 2 oni/exos I think that isn't such a bad number compared to how chaotic it was before that.
    Since this is working relatively well at this time I don't see a change in next patch to super units, instead I will focus on smaller things and maybe fades.

    ..Fade buffs?
  • JibrailJibrail Join Date: 2009-04-16 Member: 67200Members
    Maybe raising the hardcap not sure yet or perhaps adding a cooldown timer for when you die as one, multiple fades specially in the right hands are pretty overwhelming ATM.
    Yesterday I played a game of 9v9 where we had 5 fades, marines had absolutely no chance against us even with lvl3 armor and weapons + SG.
  • DarkSeraphDarkSeraph Join Date: 2004-06-07 Member: 29174Members
    edited April 2013
    Jibrail wrote: »
    Maybe raising the hardcap not sure yet or perhaps adding a cooldown timer for when you die as one, multiple fades specially in the right hands are pretty overwhelming ATM.
    Yesterday I played a game of 9v9 where we had 5 fades, marines had absolutely no chance against us even with lvl3 armor and weapons + SG.

    I'm glad I'm not the only one that has noted this. Once ns2stats is up I'd be interested in removing blink for fades - it sounds like a drastic change and it is, but this will affect the pro players more than the new.

    edit: yeah this is too much, sorry dumb idea.
  • JibrailJibrail Join Date: 2009-04-16 Member: 67200Members
    Fades actully kick ass with shadow step ( is that what its called? ) and not blink per say, I actully get blink last just because I have the xp points to do so and I end up with a VERY good K/D ratio and am not pro, Ive seen fades use the same method I use wich is blink--->jump--->blink and be extremly fast and they will end up with something like 50kills/6deaths and most of those deaths are prolly as a skulk.
  • SecuritySecurity Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2013
    DarkSeraph wrote: »
    I'd be interested in removing blink for fades - it sounds like a drastic change and it is, but this will affect the pro players more than the new.

    Balancing things by removing features is never a good idea. I thought we would have learned that much from the exo/onos removal. ;]

    Limiting number per players, increasing the cost or adding a cooldown timer for re-evolving sound like good balancing options.

  • JibrailJibrail Join Date: 2009-04-16 Member: 67200Members
    edited April 2013
    ^exactly

    on a different note I talked to Jim about adding the "invisible cysts" into the extra entity mod to give you more control over infestation and we might even turn on destructible/weldable power nodes for next version and will tweak from there to make it a less hideous process for both sides.
  • RighteousoukaRighteousouka Join Date: 2013-04-07 Member: 184694Members

    Jibrail wrote: »
    Fades actully kick ass with shadow step ( is that what its called? ) and not blink per say, I actully get blink last just because I have the xp points to do so and I end up with a VERY good K/D ratio and am not pro, Ive seen fades use the same method I use wich is blink--->jump--->blink and be extremly fast and they will end up with something like 50kills/6deaths and most of those deaths are prolly as a skulk.

    I agree blink is often a low priority(not even starting talking about vortex) for pro players. The some tweaks you could do are:

    -Increase the energy cost of shadow step so they need to be cautious of their energy use or EMPs.

    -Reduce the speed that it launches the fade so it takes longer and more shadow steps to escape.

    -Make shadow step a tier 2 ability along with blink so it requires an investment.

  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    I think you should really contemplate only having onos and exos available at certain times rather than continuously from the lategame onward. It just waters down gameplay to the point where it feels very stale and there is little skill involved. Granted lowering the total amount to 2 has helped, I feel like gameplay would benefit immensely if both teams only periodically got an onos or an exos and had to keep them alive. (rather than just suiciding in some place, respawning and re-evolving, rinse repeat)

  • JibrailJibrail Join Date: 2009-04-16 Member: 67200Members
    edited April 2013
    2 per team is MUCH better than what it was before, we also had cooldown timer wich we disabled because of some bug, hopefully we can get that to work again. so if you lose an exo or onos you wont be able to re-evolve instantly and will give this chance to another player, imo having a universal cool down timer is a bad idea someone can just evolve get killed and screws it for everybody else.
  • DarkSeraphDarkSeraph Join Date: 2004-06-07 Member: 29174Members
    edited April 2013
    Agreed, dumb suggestion on my part. You guys have a lot of good ideas about what to do with fades.

    My only issue with the cooldown timer: logistically, you die as exo, you have 5 extra points. Someone else just stole your exo spot, so now you have two choices. Attempt combat without half of your points spent, or just wait in base until someone else with an exo dies. Even if someone else doesn't steal your spot it's not like its worth participating in combat with half of your points unspent, and spending the points & refunding seems unnecessary for a 30 second wait. The only thing that I think is good about the timer is for the opposing team it becomes much easier to attack their base when there is an onos/exo timer, which I like a lot. This could be solved by greatly increasing the gestation period for onos & exo instead of the timer.
    Jibrail wrote: »
    on a different note I talked to Jim about adding the "invisible cysts" into the extra entity mod to give you more control over infestation and we might even turn on destructible/weldable power nodes for next version and will tweak from there to make it a less hideous process for both sides.

    This is awesome! Have you guys talked about adding a last stand mode (no healing hive/cc after 25 min) instead of the current alien default win?
  • JibrailJibrail Join Date: 2009-04-16 Member: 67200Members
    yes, end game was brought up alot lately still not sure what we are doing no healing is right up there and as we go we will discuss if we slow down spawn time or anything else besides the no healing.

    Also I know alot of people are complaining about hydra spam and what we will prolly end up doing is you can only build a certain amount of buildings in one place, also we might add a radios around the CC/hive where no buildings are allowed so for example the alien team wont be able to sit under the hive with 3 crags and 3 gorges healing or having the hive covered by dozens of hydras, this will hopefully be in around the time the build menu is implemented ( no eta, when its done ).
  • XaoXao Join Date: 2012-12-12 Member: 174840Members
    Hydra spam, every fucking game the hive drops to 50% or so from 2-3 rines and from then on it's lost, 3-4 people gorge and drop 20+ hydras and you're fucked, GL is too shit to clear anything out on top of that much heal spray, SG you get floored by 10+ hydras hitting you while it takes 3+ shots to kill one hydra, LMG you spend 1 LMG mag per hydra, please do something about this.

    There is no reason why hydras should be alive when a gorge dies, bare minimum those fat fucks should have to do is re drop hydras, limit to 2, drastically lower HP, anything really.
  • DarkSeraphDarkSeraph Join Date: 2004-06-07 Member: 29174Members
    @Xao, you should check your math, 4 gorges = 12 hydras. What bothers me is that if there was a last stand (no healing hive) I'm guessing your team would have won anyways, since you were already in their base at the end of the game. Game balance might not be to blame as much as alien default win.
  • CuelCuel Join Date: 2013-01-22 Member: 181295Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    No healing sounds like a good idea. Maybe restore both cc/give to 100% to 'even' it out (give both teams a chance to rush) a little if the cc was attacked seconds before the 25 mark leaving it unweldable, tho I guess it would suck if you were shooting the hive on 20% the moment the timer struck 25 min. Maybe some sort of combat check?

    Also limting hydras are indeed needed, some sort of radius preferably.

    And I'm not certain about this resupply change, wouldn't it be better if it was 1 point but only worked out of combat? Considering aliens can regen (including armor) anywhere on the field for only 1 point.

    Now I don't even bother spending the points on resupply, feels overall better to just go sg+jp quickly and then you can just jp back to base really quick for a resupply and heal.
  • ZEROibisZEROibis Join Date: 2009-10-30 Member: 69176Members, Constellation
    Healing with the default win worked fine in ns1. There were many great games where 1 gorge managed to keep the hive alive and just 1hp was the difference between a win and a loss. Now that was a blast!
  • DarkSeraphDarkSeraph Join Date: 2004-06-07 Member: 29174Members
    Cuel wrote: »
    No healing sounds like a good idea. Maybe restore both cc/give to 100% to 'even' it out (give both teams a chance to rush) a little if the cc was attacked seconds before the 25 mark leaving it unweldable, tho I guess it would suck if you were shooting the hive on 20% the moment the timer struck 25 min. Maybe some sort of combat check?

    And I'm not certain about this resupply change, wouldn't it be better if it was 1 point but only worked out of combat? Considering aliens can regen (including armor) anywhere on the field for only 1 point. Now I don't even bother spending the points on resupply, feels overall better to just go sg+jp quickly and then you can just jp back to base really quick for a resupply and heal.

    Each team still seems evenly disadvantaged there, and to be honest if your main building is at 20% at the 25min mark you're likely going to lose after that regardless.

    I too now delay resupply much longer, if I ever get it.

    ZEROibis wrote: »
    Healing with the default win worked fine in ns1. There were many great games where 1 gorge managed to keep the hive alive and just 1hp was the difference between a win and a loss. Now that was a blast!

    You are confusing association with causation. Will there not be equally epic games where one team destroys the enemy base only 1 second before theirs is lost?
  • SecuritySecurity Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited April 2013
    Xao wrote: »
    Hydra spam, every fucking game the hive drops to 50% or so from 2-3 rines and from then on it's lost, 3-4 people gorge and drop 20+ hydras and you're fucked, GL is too shit to clear anything out on top of that much heal spray, SG you get floored by 10+ hydras hitting you while it takes 3+ shots to kill one hydra, LMG you spend 1 LMG mag per hydra, please do something about this.

    There is no reason why hydras should be alive when a gorge dies, bare minimum those fat fucks should have to do is re drop hydras, limit to 2, drastically lower HP, anything really.
    Cuel wrote: »
    Also limting hydras are indeed needed, some sort of radius preferably.
    Jibrail wrote: »
    Also I know alot of people are complaining about hydra spam and what we will prolly end up doing is you can only build a certain amount of buildings in one place

    I will ask again:

    How are hydras in combat even a problem, with weapon upgrades, grenade launchers, flamethrowers and exos so quickly and readily available, compared to standard NS2?

    I never quite understood why people are complaining about them. I find it hard and tiresome to even keep them up as a gorge.
    They also give a good amount of xp to marines, when they are killed.
    I feel that they are only useful to slow down marines in the early game, where kharaa are very vulnerable and at a disadvantage.

    They become more or less useless once marines get weapon upgrades.



    Jibrail wrote: »
    also we might add a radios around the CC/hive where no buildings are allowed so for example the alien team wont be able to sit under the hive with 3 crags and 3 gorges healing or having the hive covered by dozens of hydras, this will hopefully be in around the time the build menu is implemented ( no eta, when its done ).

    Why? All that was extremely fun and worked just fine on NS1 Combat Servers with CombatBuildings Plugin!

    Sometimes I get the feeling that people are just complaining about random things, for the sake of complaining.

    (And that you should not necessarily listen to them, but rely on game mechanics that have been proven to be working, good and fun in the past..)

  • ZEROibisZEROibis Join Date: 2009-10-30 Member: 69176Members, Constellation
    DarkSeraph wrote: »
    Cuel wrote: »
    No healing sounds like a good idea. Maybe restore both cc/give to 100% to 'even' it out (give both teams a chance to rush) a little if the cc was attacked seconds before the 25 mark leaving it unweldable, tho I guess it would suck if you were shooting the hive on 20% the moment the timer struck 25 min. Maybe some sort of combat check?

    And I'm not certain about this resupply change, wouldn't it be better if it was 1 point but only worked out of combat? Considering aliens can regen (including armor) anywhere on the field for only 1 point. Now I don't even bother spending the points on resupply, feels overall better to just go sg+jp quickly and then you can just jp back to base really quick for a resupply and heal.

    Each team still seems evenly disadvantaged there, and to be honest if your main building is at 20% at the 25min mark you're likely going to lose after that regardless.

    I too now delay resupply much longer, if I ever get it.

    ZEROibis wrote: »
    Healing with the default win worked fine in ns1. There were many great games where 1 gorge managed to keep the hive alive and just 1hp was the difference between a win and a loss. Now that was a blast!

    You are confusing association with causation. Will there not be equally epic games where one team destroys the enemy base only 1 second before theirs is lost?

    When your that gorge I can tell you it is awesome! It was also fun when I killed the gorge when the roles were reversed and got the hive. But this was also all with xmenu where as 1 gorge is equal to like 5 with sent of the ancients maxed out.
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