Natural Selection 2 Build 245 Released - Natural Selection 2

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  • hozzhozz Join Date: 2012-11-20 Member: 172660Members
    Hamlet wrote: »
    What this game is missing are anime rifles, pink shotguns and Helly Kitty flamethrowers.
    Add all the Quake and UT sound effects you can muster and NS2 is good to go.

    Not.
    This.
    What people forget that nobody decided to hate modded servers just out of spite.
    There are very good reasons.
    These are some of those reasons.
    Add infuriatingly counterproductive UI mods (transparent minimap, "better" armory) and I know why I prefer vanilla servers. That didn't just happen because I'm such a mean person :)

    ---

    I find it sad that in order to make something "more Alien friendly", all kinds of open spaces just disappear and mappers have to desperately clutter the map with random columns and crates and sight blockers. Like the new Sorting or Crusher room on Mineshaft, it's just a random mess.

    I'd rather see the Skulk fixed so it is usable outside of narrow surroundings, because that's the reason why open spaces have to disappear. It also impedes mappers a lot if open spaces (not even huge ones, just like Locker Room or Departures on the Docking map) are essentially a no-go.
  • SecuritySecurity Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Just listen to Max. He is awesome. ;]
  • lwflwf Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58311Members, Constellation
    edited April 2013
    Allow players to filter sound downloads is not a good idea since it would severely limit total conversations mods use of sounds. Imagine for example if ambient sound used like the music in the bar used to be could simply be disabled. While I'm sure many would do that if they could it's not a good thing.

    You're too short-sighted wanting to make sounds optional just because someone might could add Quake/Unreal sounds to NS2, something I have not even managed to find. The real solution is for such a mod to add an option to enable/disable it on the client, or just not play there and it will sort itself out.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    edited April 2013
    That's a good idea
    The reason modded servers were stigmatised is because of the plethora of mods available, while some are innocuous like NS2Stats or DAKAdmin kit or the heightened consistency check mod, there are others that change how the game is played(Combat).
    Like Max said on page 3.. you can clearly see combat maps and combat servers from the server browser.
    Same with the faded mod or any Total conversion...

    Sooo all that's remaining are those "innocuous" mods like NS2stats or DAK?...
    So why are you upset, again?

    I see some users expressing their discontent, but i am not seeing an argument that hasn't already been refuted or doesn't apply?
    Those modded servers were going to be modded anyways.. in fact moreso now that they aren't "stained yellow".
    So finding a pure server is basically going to boil down to Official UWE servers pretty soon.

    Which i think is a good thing considering what great tools / features come from most of those "innocuous" mods!
    An easy solution for NS2stats sounds is to do what CS plugins did. You can turn off sounds by typing /sounds or something. But this falls on the mod makers, not UWE obviously. So go leave feedback on their steam workshop page. :)
  • FarknutFarknut Join Date: 2013-03-18 Member: 184065Members
    edited April 2013
    hakenspit wrote: »
    I should not have to join a server to discover whether or not its mod'd, being forced to play on UWE official servers (8v8 max (mostly 6v6 as you often have 1-2 in ready room and an empty slot)).
    UWE have indicated they plan to have a detailed view accesible in later patches....well this says it all...clearly they agree that its not acceptable.
    I just dont understand why they felt it could not wait until both things could happen at once.

    All that needs to be said. Yet another decision that doesn't make any logical sense, and yet we still have some people on here defending it. Unbelievable.
  • SecuritySecurity Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33133Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    IronHorse wrote: »
    that behavior will discourage open developer communication like you've seen in this thread (3 + posts from the man who made spark)

    I have to agree. I really like it when developers share their thoughts, intentions and future plans about things, instead of leaving us in the dark.
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
    Max wrote: »
    We're going to add a "details" window in the server browser that shows you information about a specific server, such as the mods that it is running. It will be in a future patch.

    Having it simply tell you modded versus not-modded was not consistent with our goals. Ultimately we would like almost every server to be running mods -- like server administration tools -- which the community can do a better job at than we can.

    Then why not wait until this detail windows is ready ?

  • FarknutFarknut Join Date: 2013-03-18 Member: 184065Members
    edited April 2013
    IronHorse wrote: »
    @Farknut : Who urinated in your cheerios, man? Why can't you simply disagree, instead of being insulting and rude all the time? I really don't see what warrants those kind of responses - and what's worse : that behavior will discourage open developer communication like you've seen in this thread (3 + posts from the man who made spark)

    You are wrong and so is he. I'm not into hero worship (I'm still waiting for the devs to prove they even know what they are doing), and I don't see how agreeing with the most legit point made here is rude or insulting. I also don't understand how you or anyone else can argue that this change needed to be made now, that this change was logical, or that this change couldn't just wait until the replacement feature was complete.

    How about you or one of the devs post up something that is a legitimate argument for any of those counterpoints. This change at this time has zero benefit to the players, and a huge negative aspect, regardless of whether or not the modded server designation was entirely accurate previously. This whole attitude of "we'll screw something up now and fix it later" needs to stop, it's disrespectful to the playerbase, as is you telling people who disagree to just hit the silly little disagree button. If the devs don't want to engage with their playerbase because some people don't agree/post criticism/don't worship them enough then that is their problem for not caring about their community enough to bother, not mine.
    Security wrote: »
    I have to agree. I really like it when developers share their thoughts, intentions and future plans about things, instead of leaving us in the dark.

    Are you even playing the same game I am? That might have been true in the past. It isn't true any more. The only people who know what is coming are the playtesters, and judging by IronHorse's cryptic replies in so many threads, they can't even tell us.
  • lwflwf Join Date: 2006-11-03 Member: 58311Members, Constellation
    Wake wrote: »
    I can't understand the point of masking vanilla servers ? Modded, unmodded, let's make it clear where you're going and where you want to go.

    The people that don't want to go modded will not. I don't see the point of luring them.
    They were already masked. The reason for the change was in the changelog.
    Wake wrote: »
    Then why not wait until this detail windows is ready ?
    You're asking the company that released their first commercial games as an alpha, in actual alpha quality, and built on it for years until release, why they released a feature early and before all the other parts were in place.
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
    lwf wrote: »
    You're asking the company that released their first commercial games as an alpha, in actual alpha quality, and built on it for years until release, why they released a feature early and before all the other parts were in place.

    Nice try but both are one question. Masking is not feature, making modded server yellow was a feature. So actually, a feature was removed before it's replacement was ready.

    And please, don't get into the alpha thingy there. It has nothing to do with the matter and I'm not asking UWE anything (I never did although I send contributions more than once, back in days where the game was 100% free), I'm just commenting was I feel as a unecessary move.

    I think that 90% of UWE's moves are smart, I don't feel this one is a part of it.

    Please allow me to disagree, and keep playing the ball, not the player. Thanks.

    Peace.
  • Comrade SuhovComrade Suhov Join Date: 2012-12-29 Member: 176626Members, Reinforced - Diamond
    edited April 2013
    I hope that devs will change their mind about moded servers. Server mods gave me shivers back in the day when I played CS:S in 04-06's. Untill I discovered "cl_downloadfilter none" command. And that thing gave me piece of mind in all Source games. I do not want to join moded server so my game client will be flooded with unneded mods and pissed over by some admin mods. I like the most default experience no matter what online game I play: CS:S, TF2, BF:BC2, BF3, NS2 - the more defalt - the better.

    I do not mind custom maps, but everything else should be blocked until user himself allow each of every mod installed. By masking moded servers you removed a choise.
  • bongofishbongofish Join Date: 2003-08-17 Member: 19893Members
    hakenspit wrote: »
    Oh I am sorry I offended your belief as to what the best player count is, shame that the player base seems to disagree given that the number of high pop player servers seems to not only be increasing but is also popular.
    I like the higher player count servers as it means I am less likely to have a server die due to 3 or 4 people leaving at the same time.

    Why do you guys who like high population severs get so upset about other people not liking them?

    The game doesn't scale well, that's a fact. So high population servers do deliver a sub-optimal NS2 experience (I'm sure this will be fixed at some point.) You may prefer this, it doesn't bother me. I just don't understand the defensiveness.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited April 2013
    What exactly is the problem with the modded filter if you are so keen on absolutely avoiding modded servers. Seems a bit silly that the game's modifiability should suffer just because a few members in the community don't want to use a filter. Or why not make an exception in this modded server filter system for harmless plugins like DAK?

    EDIT: I just now realised they took it out, but why? Why can't we have a modded filter for the purist, just have it off by default? There wouldn't be nearly as much harm to modded servers as there was with the modded filter + yellow listing system.
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
    Xarius wrote: »
    What exactly is the problem with the modded filter if you are so keen on absolutely avoiding modded servers. Seems a bit silly that the game's modifiability should suffer just because a few members in the community don't want to use a filter. Or why not make an exception in this modded server filter system for harmless plugins like DAK?

    The only problem is that there is no mod filter at the time being, there is just a game filter wich is not of really use because the game is actually displayed on the server list (ns2, combat, forsaken etc.)

  • Vahn_PaktuVahn_Paktu Join Date: 2002-10-28 Member: 1666Members, Constellation
    edited April 2013
    IronHorse wrote: »
    That's a good idea
    The reason modded servers were stigmatised is because of the plethora of mods available, while some are innocuous like NS2Stats or DAKAdmin kit or the heightened consistency check mod, there are others that change how the game is played(Combat).
    Like Max said on page 3.. you can clearly see combat maps and combat servers from the server browser.
    Same with the faded mod or any Total conversion...

    Sooo all that's remaining are those "innocuous" mods like NS2stats or DAK?...
    So why are you upset, again?

    I see some users expressing their discontent, but i am not seeing an argument that hasn't already been refuted or doesn't apply?
    Those modded servers were going to be modded anyways.. in fact moreso now that they aren't "stained yellow".
    So finding a pure server is basically going to boil down to Official UWE servers pretty soon.

    Which i think is a good thing considering what great tools / features come from most of those "innocuous" mods!
    An easy solution for NS2stats sounds is to do what CS plugins did. You can turn off sounds by typing /sounds or something. But this falls on the mod makers, not UWE obviously. So go leave feedback on their steam workshop page. :)

    Which I think is a BAD thing considering what terrible sounds/res4kills come from most of those "bad" mods!

    An easy solution would have some way to filter out modded servers. You could push a button to instantly see which servers were modded and which weren't. But this falls on UWE, not the mod makers obviously. So go leave feedback on their forums. :)
  • dePARAdePARA Join Date: 2011-04-29 Member: 96321Members, Squad Five Blue
    In times of 4tb HDDs people dont want to download some small mods? Most mods are only a few mb in size. So, this isnt a real argument for me.

    And as i said before: 90% of the mods didnt change anything in the gamemechanic.

    But these are things the "im against all-people" dont want to hear.
    If modded servers flagged in red instead of yellow since 245, im sure the same people had arguments against here.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    dePARA wrote: »
    In times of 4tb HDDs people dont want to download some small mods? Most mods are only a few mb in size. So, this isnt a real argument for me.

    UT2k4 had a nice distinction there: manually installed mods vs server-downloaded cache files.
    The server cache files were essentially the same as the actual files (you could just rename them properly with file extension and they would act the same), just disguised with some cryptic file name and in their own folder. The server would first check to see if the client has the file regularly installed and otherwise let him download the cache files and mount them from there.
    A setting in the INI would then make sure that cache files are automatically deleted X days after they were downloaded (by default 30 days), so your HDD would not be polluted with too many mods if you happened to join many different modded servers months ago.

    NS2 already distinguishes whether a mod file was subscribed to by the user in the Workshop or downloaded automatically. So I guess such a garbage purge could take place here as well. I know for sure that it already deletes outdated versions of mods if newer versions are released.
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
    dePARA wrote: »
    But these are things the "im against all-people" dont want to hear.
    If modded servers flagged in red instead of yellow since 245, im sure the same people had arguments against here.

    Again please, play the ball not the players, thanks.
    Disliking this feature removal does not make one a "I'm against all".

  • Vahn_PaktuVahn_Paktu Join Date: 2002-10-28 Member: 1666Members, Constellation
    invTempest wrote: »
    The only server that runs res4kill is the voogru ones and those didn't even show up as modded prior to this change... Why are people making such a big deal when servers were bypassing the mod flag by overwriting the game files (which Max explained causes issues)? This change just adds visibility for the end user and makes it easier for server admins to keep their mods up to date by using the workshop like it was designed.

    Most of the popular servers were probably already running DAK, but now these servers don't have to use a bypass so you can actually *see* what these servers are running.

    If anything, people should be happy that these servers can now actually report what mods they are running rather than try to hide them so their server isn't flagged.

    So it adds visibility to the end user by removing their ability to see servers that are modded?

    People cheat, stuff breaks, "totally" the game's fault. If server admins want custom mods, they are modded.
    It would be nice to have a white list/ "Clean" API but those ideas were rejected (Not a complaint just a fact).
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    • People cheat regardless of modded servers
    • Stuff breaks regardless of modded servers
    • Unless it was an UWE Official Server, chances are it was probably already modded, you just didn't know it
    • Improvements are incoming, as stated
    • The sky is not falling :)
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    The one thing I would love to see would be a means to control whether a mod is downloaded onto my machine. (talking client-side mods here) I've joined some servers and ended up with 4 or more unnamed mods in my mod list. A toggle in the options to allow a person to disable mod downloads would be a welcome change. If a person doesn't have the mod they get disconnected. Or perhaps prompt before allowing the download. I'd just like to have a bit more control over what gets dumped onto my machine and by whom.
  • |DFA| Havoc|DFA| Havoc Join Date: 2009-08-07 Member: 68375Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    IronHorse wrote: »
    So finding a pure server is basically going to boil down to Official UWE servers pretty soon.

    Not true, not all server owners are mod-crazy. Some of us prefer the purist 'plain vanilla' approach. :P

    I can appreciate that things are being fixed so that mods can't be hidden any more, but as others have said, they were often treated as second class for a reason: many people want to stick to the original format and are simply not interested in experimenting. It sounds like detailed server information will be added to the browser, but I hope that the option to filter out mods or non-whitelisted mods will be added back in.

    If not, many players may indeed switch to playing on UWE servers only by default so they don't have to manually examine and vett each server they might consider playing on, and this in turn would deter new players from potentially jumping in to 'plain vanilla' community-run servers like ours.
  • Flash8798Flash8798 Join Date: 2013-02-04 Member: 182814Members
    edited April 2013
    A quick fix would be to not distinguish between servers in the browser list, such as the ugly yellow coloring, but also keep the option for filtering the modded servers. Therefore, you'd less stigmatize modded servers, while also keeping the option open for players to play on vanilla or lightly modded (DAK Admin Kit, etc.) servers without their way of playing the game possibly being compromised. Thus, you allow so called purists to continue to play on vanilla servers without the fear of unsolicited mods being downloaded, while also leaving open for the option that people can just jump right into the pile if they so choose to do. But the reason so many people are upset about this change in general is that they had no choice or say in regards to what they want to play, and a filtering option was a supposed 'player' choice that was chosen for them.

    Just add the filter button back, and if people want to take risks, don't force it upon them. If modders should be free to do what they want with their servers, players should be free to decide if they want to play on said servers or not without the fear of mods that could possibly cause a majority of ingame glitches or unfair advantages that ruin their gaming experience, which would ultimately cause them to possibly drop the game altogether and, god forbid, go back to playing something like Black Ops 2 or Battlefield 3.
  • FrothybeverageFrothybeverage Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13593Members
    _Necro_ wrote: »
    Like you don't know the 5 - 10 vanilla servers in your region by name now, which you are joining every night.
    What do you suggest I do if those servers are all full or empty(All servers seem to be one or the other.), and I don't want to play on a modded server?

    The in-game full server join functionality is broken.

  • FrothybeverageFrothybeverage Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13593Members
    edited April 2013
    Max wrote: »
    They were exploiting, so you guys chose to remove functionality without having a replacement ready to go?
    The reason modded servers were stigmatised is because of the plethora of mods available, while some are innocuous like NS2Stats or DAKAdmin kit or the heightened consistency check mod, there are others that change how the game is played(Combat).
    Unless the server states in the server name WHAT mod they are running, we are forced to go in blind.
    You can filter on Combat or other large game changing mods using the "game" filter in the server browser.
    Yep, which overrides sorting by ping.

    Thanks for talking down to me like I'm an idiot though.
  • invTempestinvTempest Join Date: 2003-03-02 Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    I think people are making this isn't a bigger issue that it really is. With all these people that are against this change why don't people advertise *NOT MODDED* on their servers? Find a server that meets your non-modded standard and favorite it - Problem solved.
  • FrothybeverageFrothybeverage Join Date: 2003-02-15 Member: 13593Members
    edited April 2013
    Not that anyone at UWE will give a shit, because they already got my money but
    http://i.imgur.com/VoSrTtw.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/QCVLs0z.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/eNjvijt.jpg
    reduced image spam to links - GISP
    It's hard enough to find a decent(read: Non-stacked and/or troll-filled) game without having to dodge mods.
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