I won't join a server with more than 20 slots. The people that enjoy those servers are the type that I have no interest in playing with anyway.
Couldn't you just say that you have no interest in playing those types of games, rather than making it about the people who play them? As it is, your comment is rather personal and confrontational, and probably wrong (I'm sure there are plenty of people who enjoy large games AND who enjoy small games AND whom you would enjoy playing small games with).
8v8 is what the game is designed around thats why.
Did you design the game?
Did the people who designed the game tell you that they designed it around 8v8?
Or are you just making things up?
The devs have said that the game was designed around 8v8 +/- 2. So anything from 6v6 to 10v10.
Can I get a source/quote on that? Not that I am saying you are wrong I just wanted to see how the developers stated it and their reasoning behind that official player number.
One of these days we'll stop having to debunk this "UWE intended gameplay for smaller servers" myth that people love to keep concocting on the forums.
If you like smaller servers, then play on them. You don't really need a forum thread so people can help you justify your own preferences do you? All these do is turn into massive fests of half truths or opinions. The facts have always been: some people prefer smaller, some people prefer bigger. That's why there are BOTH!
I don't feel the need for justification. I just wanted to see if peoples preferences shift over time/skill.
8v8 is what the game is designed around thats why.
I find this comment hilarious being on the same page where a dev flat out states that to be incorrect.
to be fair what matso, presumably who you're referring to, actually seemed to imply was that 8v8 was the largest server that they could balance for because anything larger died horribly late game. which does not necessarily mean that they balanced for 8x8, or that they designed this game for 8v8... but does exclude the possibility that they both designed and balanced the game for anything larger.
UWE has certainly designed the game to work in the 12-16 player range. 24 player servers are a compromise and don't work as well. This isn't opinion, it's a result of UWE's vision.
Actually, that isn't fully accurate.
NS2 is balanced for 8 player teams +/- 2 players. You can see this by the fact of the hundreds of official servers that were up on the weekend, not ONE was 6v6. Every single one was 8v8. While 6v6 is supported, the game isn't specifically balanced for 6v6 any more than it is balanced for 10v10. By balancing for 8v8 they can safely assure that the game will be relatively balanced for games +/- 2 players outside the balance point of 8 players a side. (If the game became unbalanced with a 2 player offset, then they would have a hard time balancing the game at all.)
I know it may seem like a minor point, but it needs to be said.
You people questioning the designed player size need to read the damn thread.
UWE has certainly designed the game to work in the 12-16 player range. 24 player servers are a compromise and don't work as well. This isn't opinion, it's a result of UWE's vision.
Actually, that isn't fully accurate.
NS2 is balanced for 8 player teams +/- 2 players. You can see this by the fact of the hundreds of official servers that were up on the weekend, not ONE was 6v6. Every single one was 8v8. While 6v6 is supported, the game isn't specifically balanced for 6v6 any more than it is balanced for 10v10. By balancing for 8v8 they can safely assure that the game will be relatively balanced for games +/- 2 players outside the balance point of 8 players a side. (If the game became unbalanced with a 2 player offset, then they would have a hard time balancing the game at all.)
I know it may seem like a minor point, but it needs to be said.
You people questioning the designed player size need to read the damn thread.
I have quoted it here for your convenience.
Hate to point this out to you, but Savant is not a dev. Those are his opinions, not necessarily 'what the devs say.'
So instead of regurgitating something you read as fact, perhaps you should just reference the thing you read so people can see the source and decide for themselves how reliable it is?
Ok. Fair enough. Playtesters are volunteers, I take it?
It's totally fine if you prefer large servers and that isn't dependent on whether the devs designed things that way or not. You like what you like. I personally think the game totally breaks down on larger servers.
However, if you think the developers designed the game to work with 24 players then you must think they are terrible at designing things since the game breaks at that size. Don't you think they would have addressed the egg spawn issue if they were designing it to work at that size? Why would they design it to work at 24 players and leave in such a glaring error? That defies logic.
16-18 is the best because more than that is too many players. The maps are not designed for that many players. Having so many players greatly benefits the marines. They are able to defend every area of the map, and there's no way for a skulk to get a minute of peace to bite an extractor. The marines can camp every extractor, phase gate, and tech point while having plenty of troops left over to form a pressure squad.
Whether the game works well at large player counts is a completely separate question from whether the game is intended to work well at large player counts.
The first is a matter of opinion, the second is a matter of fact.
But even if you think the game is so obviously broken at large player counts that it can't possibly be reasonably denied, that still doesn't mean that UWE doesn't want it to work and won't figure out how to make it work. It just means they haven't gotten it right yet.
People on the forums use the "the game is designed for XvX" line as a way to dismiss the opinions of people who think that larger games are okay. Rather than simply saying "I like smaller games" they feel compelled to support their opinion with some semblance of authority. But their claims of authoritative support are false, and their rhetorical device is shameful.
Stand by your own opinion. It's your opinion, after all, and nobody can dispute it. Don't try to make yourself feel good by attempting to invalidate other people's opinions using bogus statements about the developers' intent.
I like 16-18p best.
Seems like the game's pace is best optimized for it.
Maybe new maps specificly designed for 24players can improve that expirience.
Ofcourse there is the fact i have very low performace which makes me wanna avoid big clussterf*cks
Ok. Fair enough. Playtesters are volunteers, I take it?
He was an NS1 playtester, not an NS2 PT. I believe he cannot playtest NS2 for contract reasons with his job (correct me if I'm misinformed there, Savant).
Ok. Fair enough. Playtesters are volunteers, I take it?
He was an NS1 playtester, not an NS2 PT. I believe he cannot playtest NS2 for contract reasons with his job (correct me if I'm misinformed there, Savant).
I haven't looked to see where this is coming from, but yes you are correct. My contract prohibits me from working for anyone else - even on a volunteer basis. If NS2 was free I could have probably applied for an exemption. (It was why I could do betas in NS1) In any case, in case there is any confusion, a mouseover of my skulk badge will confirm my involvement was in NS1, and I speak only for myself.
As for player size, my remarks are based on observation, and dev blog posts. You will not find a single UWE 6v6 official pub server out there. Does not exist. So why would they balance a game for 6v6 and then pay for servers that go against their own design?
Can comp teams play 6v6 and have a balanced game? Of course they can. The balance in this game is not so fickle that a couple player difference will destroy game balance. But it goes both ways. You can go +/- 2 players and still get a balanced game. Anything more/less than that will have problems.
Whether the game works well at large player counts is a completely separate question from whether the game is intended to work well at large player counts.
The first is a matter of opinion, the second is a matter of fact.
But even if you think the game is so obviously broken at large player counts that it can't possibly be reasonably denied, that still doesn't mean that UWE doesn't want it to work and won't figure out how to make it work. It just means they haven't gotten it right yet.
People on the forums use the "the game is designed for XvX" line as a way to dismiss the opinions of people who think that larger games are okay. Rather than simply saying "I like smaller games" they feel compelled to support their opinion with some semblance of authority. But their claims of authoritative support are false, and their rhetorical device is shameful.
Stand by your own opinion. It's your opinion, after all, and nobody can dispute it. Don't try to make yourself feel good by attempting to invalidate other people's opinions using bogus statements about the developers' intent.
So you think they intended to make it work for larger servers and completely ignored the egg scaling issue and released a game that was broken and haven't fixed it yet even though they have worked tirelessly on many other issues?
Considering their level of passion and dedication, especially when it comes to balance and making the game work, I feel it is much more likely that they have not put any effort into the larger servers because that was not their intent.
In the future they may attempt to make the game work at the larger team sizes but I don't see them expending any resources on that currently.
I have read that. It doesn't change the fact that the game does not scale well to 24 players.
You are taking things on faith, I am looking at the reality of the situation. If you look at the state of the game, they are not supporting 24 players severs because they have put no time into making them work.
Just because they have suggested something, or even promised something, it is itrelevant until it is backed up by action.
Also, you quoting that line is you doing exactly what you accused others of doing by attempting to use it to dismiss my opinion that UWE does not currently care to make the game work properly on 24 player servers.
You can base your argument on hearsay and statements in the map editor and I will base mine on the current state of the game and how UWE is using its resources.
You may be right about them wanting to support larger servers (I'm sure they do eventually want to) but until they actually do something about it, isn't it just promises and vaporware?
Sorry. I was ignoring the ones that I'm not trying to dispute. I'll be more explicit here.
It doesn't change the fact that the game does not scale well to 24 players.
I don't dispute that.
If you look at the state of the game, they are not supporting 24 players severs because they have put no time into making them work.
I don't dispute that.
Just because they have suggested something, or even promised something, it is itrelevant until it is backed up by action.
I don't dispute that.
Also, you quoting that line is you doing exactly what you accused others of doing by attempting to use it to dismiss my opinion that UWE does not currently care to make the game work properly on 24 player servers.
I don't dispute your opinion. I also didn't intend to dismiss your opinion, and if it seems like I have, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
You may be right about them wanting to support larger servers (I'm sure they do eventually want to) but until they actually do something about it, isn't it just promises and vaporware?
UWE has certainly designed the game to work in the 12-16 player range. 24 player servers are a compromise and don't work as well. This isn't opinion, it's a result of UWE's vision.
There's nothing wrong with prefering larger servers, but that wasn't how the game was designed.
NS2 is balanced for 8 player teams +/- 2 players. While 6v6 is supported, the game isn't specifically balanced for 6v6 any more than it is balanced for 10v10. By balancing for 8v8 they can safely assure that the game will be relatively balanced for games +/- 2 players outside the balance point of 8 players a side.
The devs have said that the game was designed around 8v8 +/- 2. So anything from 6v6 to 10v10.
Now, to the degree that "designed for 8v8" means "the game's design as realized in the current implementation happens to be best at 8v8" ... well, I don't dispute that. In fact, I have no opinion at all on that subject. Nor on any of the related questions that you posed above.
But to the degree that "designed for 8v8" means "The UWE developers have deliberately designed the game to be best at 8v8, and thus the realization of that design in the current implementation reflects their intentions regarding the optimal number of players" ...
THAT is what I dispute.
As best as I can tell, UWE has NEVER made any such statement about their intended optimal number of players, and in fact have on two separate occasions stated something very much THE OPPOSITE of that. Anyone who claims otherwise is, as best as I can tell, making things up to bolster their own self-esteem in what would otherwise be pointless disputes over gameplay preferences.
For the people who didn't bother reading this in the other thread from awhile back along these lines. NS2 is NOT intended to be played at any particular player cap, no matter how much forum warriors like to think it is.
QUOTE (Jonacrab @ May 8 2012, 03:50 AM) »... they would never pop up more than 1 fade at a time in a 6v6...
... The beauty of NS1 is that the game managed this balance perfectly, but without the whole system, balance is lost.
I mean no disrespect at all Jonacrab, you often advance great arguments. But I must interject here and ask the question, how well did NS1's perfect balance work in 8v8s? 10v10s? Anything but 6v6? The answer is that it did not, at all. NS1 was only balanced for 6v6, and that is unacceptable for NS2.
6v6 8v8 fanatics always raging here because they have nobody to play with, so they are trying to "force" ppl from +20 servers to come fill their empty 16p servers. Majority of ppl just like the big playercount, so go play on the big servers or stay alone on 12-16p server. raging on forums how much "it's supposed to be 6v6" will not help. 6v6 is just an ancient relic from when competivite counterstrike was invented which happened to transfer to NS1 competitive scene.
I also play competitive NS2 but i don't play matches very often with my team because even tho i really enjoy the teamplay, 6v6 is just horrible for a strategic game like this, it's..... counterstrike :O
There is supposed to be a war between humans and aliens, and less than 20 players just cant give that feeling.
And btw it sounds stupid that 6v6 would have more strategy than 12v12, its the complete opposite. Less there are players more important the player invidual skill becomes, and the more there are players less impact will some wannabe Fatal1ty make because he just wont have enough bullets against 12 aliens stomping him Big playercount forces teamplay to achieve victory.
6v6 8v8 fanatics always raging here because they have nobody to play with, so they are trying to "force" ppl from +20 servers to come fill their empty 16p servers. Majority of ppl just like the big playercount, so go play on the big servers or stay alone on 12-16p server. raging on forums how much "it's supposed to be 6v6" will not help. 6v6 is just an ancient relic from when competivite counterstrike was invented which happened to transfer to NS1 competitive scene.
I also play competitive NS2 but i don't play matches very often with my team because even tho i really enjoy the teamplay, 6v6 is just horrible for a strategic game like this, it's..... counterstrike :O
There is supposed to be a war between humans and aliens, and less than 20 players just cant give that feeling.
And btw it sounds stupid that 6v6 would have more strategy than 12v12, its the complete opposite. Less there are players more important the player invidual skill becomes, and the more there are players less impact will some wannabe Fatal1ty make because he just wont have enough bullets against 12 aliens stomping him Big playercount forces teamplay to achieve victory.
way to paint with the big brush...personally speaking, I felt really comfortable with 20+ early on. but have become progressively more comfortable with smaller numbers. hard to ambush a marine when they travel in packs of 4. phase gates go up so friggin fast when 4 guys power it... flying a lerk around with packs of.4 roaming gets really dangerous. I shudder to imagine 24 man servers with marines that can all actually aim.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
there is not really an intention to ignore large servers. actually im trying currently to fix the most pressing issues with those, without screwing up low and medium sized servers. but at one point, the game simply changes to much no matter how good things scale. the only way to minimize scaling issues is to make the teams completely symmetrical and also the map layouts, but thats out of the question.
[Anyone who claims otherwise is, as best as I can tell, making things up to bolster their own self-esteem in what would otherwise be pointless disputes over gameplay preferences.
Let me get this straight. You are arguing that people who say the devs designed the game for a certain number of players are wrong because the devs have said that they want to support more players. You admit that the game in its present state breaks down at larger player counts and that the devs have not actually implemented any methods to actually make the game playable at larger player counts.
And you say that the people saying the game wasn't designed for larger player counts are doing this to bolster their self esteem? (
First off, I think you may be confusing the word designed with the word conceived. Did they conceive of NS2 working with larger player counts? Obviously. Did they design it to work with larger player counts? Obviously not (or they are incompetent, which clearly they are not).
My take on it is this:
Did the developers say they wanted to support larger player counts? Yes.
Do they currently? No.
What is more relevant, words or action? Action.
Have the developers actions supported larger player counts? No.
Since Actions > Words, the devs do not currently support larger player counts.
IMHO, all other arguments are semantics or hypothetical.
Honestly, I don't really care too much and I am one of those people who likes to argue (I'm thinking you are guilty of this too Eddie) and I don't want this to actually upset anyone. I agree that the game should work for slightly larger player counts. People obviously love the combat-esque gameplay of larger servers and UWE needs to give the players what they want. I'm sure they will do the design work needed to address the larger player count servers in the near future and then hopefully everyone can find the flavor of NS that suits them best.
Comments
Did you design the game?
Did the people who designed the game tell you that they designed it around 8v8?
Or are you just making things up?
Couldn't you just say that you have no interest in playing those types of games, rather than making it about the people who play them? As it is, your comment is rather personal and confrontational, and probably wrong (I'm sure there are plenty of people who enjoy large games AND who enjoy small games AND whom you would enjoy playing small games with).
The devs have said that the game was designed around 8v8 +/- 2. So anything from 6v6 to 10v10.
Can I get a source/quote on that? Not that I am saying you are wrong I just wanted to see how the developers stated it and their reasoning behind that official player number.
I find this comment hilarious being on the same page where a dev flat out states that to be incorrect.
to be fair what matso, presumably who you're referring to, actually seemed to imply was that 8v8 was the largest server that they could balance for because anything larger died horribly late game. which does not necessarily mean that they balanced for 8x8, or that they designed this game for 8v8... but does exclude the possibility that they both designed and balanced the game for anything larger.
Where?
They all run like poo anyways.
We've recently switch from 20 to 18 players on our pub(s) and they are much nicer.
I have no idea how that happened. >.<
You people questioning the designed player size need to read the damn thread.
I have quoted it here for your convenience.
Hate to point this out to you, but Savant is not a dev. Those are his opinions, not necessarily 'what the devs say.'
So instead of regurgitating something you read as fact, perhaps you should just reference the thing you read so people can see the source and decide for themselves how reliable it is?
Show me something from one of these people and you'll have a point.
It's totally fine if you prefer large servers and that isn't dependent on whether the devs designed things that way or not. You like what you like. I personally think the game totally breaks down on larger servers.
However, if you think the developers designed the game to work with 24 players then you must think they are terrible at designing things since the game breaks at that size. Don't you think they would have addressed the egg spawn issue if they were designing it to work at that size? Why would they design it to work at 24 players and leave in such a glaring error? That defies logic.
The first is a matter of opinion, the second is a matter of fact.
But even if you think the game is so obviously broken at large player counts that it can't possibly be reasonably denied, that still doesn't mean that UWE doesn't want it to work and won't figure out how to make it work. It just means they haven't gotten it right yet.
People on the forums use the "the game is designed for XvX" line as a way to dismiss the opinions of people who think that larger games are okay. Rather than simply saying "I like smaller games" they feel compelled to support their opinion with some semblance of authority. But their claims of authoritative support are false, and their rhetorical device is shameful.
Stand by your own opinion. It's your opinion, after all, and nobody can dispute it. Don't try to make yourself feel good by attempting to invalidate other people's opinions using bogus statements about the developers' intent.
Seems like the game's pace is best optimized for it.
Maybe new maps specificly designed for 24players can improve that expirience.
Ofcourse there is the fact i have very low performace which makes me wanna avoid big clussterf*cks
He was an NS1 playtester, not an NS2 PT. I believe he cannot playtest NS2 for contract reasons with his job (correct me if I'm misinformed there, Savant).
As for player size, my remarks are based on observation, and dev blog posts. You will not find a single UWE 6v6 official pub server out there. Does not exist. So why would they balance a game for 6v6 and then pay for servers that go against their own design?
Can comp teams play 6v6 and have a balanced game? Of course they can. The balance in this game is not so fickle that a couple player difference will destroy game balance. But it goes both ways. You can go +/- 2 players and still get a balanced game. Anything more/less than that will have problems.
So you think they intended to make it work for larger servers and completely ignored the egg scaling issue and released a game that was broken and haven't fixed it yet even though they have worked tirelessly on many other issues?
Considering their level of passion and dedication, especially when it comes to balance and making the game work, I feel it is much more likely that they have not put any effort into the larger servers because that was not their intent.
In the future they may attempt to make the game work at the larger team sizes but I don't see them expending any resources on that currently.
"Both the marine and alien teams have up to 16 players each"
I have read that. It doesn't change the fact that the game does not scale well to 24 players.
You are taking things on faith, I am looking at the reality of the situation. If you look at the state of the game, they are not supporting 24 players severs because they have put no time into making them work.
Just because they have suggested something, or even promised something, it is itrelevant until it is backed up by action.
Also, you quoting that line is you doing exactly what you accused others of doing by attempting to use it to dismiss my opinion that UWE does not currently care to make the game work properly on 24 player servers.
You can base your argument on hearsay and statements in the map editor and I will base mine on the current state of the game and how UWE is using its resources.
You may be right about them wanting to support larger servers (I'm sure they do eventually want to) but until they actually do something about it, isn't it just promises and vaporware?
I don't dispute that.
I don't dispute that.
I don't dispute that.
I don't dispute your opinion. I also didn't intend to dismiss your opinion, and if it seems like I have, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
I don't dispute that.
Here's what I dispute:
Now, to the degree that "designed for 8v8" means "the game's design as realized in the current implementation happens to be best at 8v8" ... well, I don't dispute that. In fact, I have no opinion at all on that subject. Nor on any of the related questions that you posed above.
But to the degree that "designed for 8v8" means "The UWE developers have deliberately designed the game to be best at 8v8, and thus the realization of that design in the current implementation reflects their intentions regarding the optimal number of players" ...
THAT is what I dispute.
As best as I can tell, UWE has NEVER made any such statement about their intended optimal number of players, and in fact have on two separate occasions stated something very much THE OPPOSITE of that. Anyone who claims otherwise is, as best as I can tell, making things up to bolster their own self-esteem in what would otherwise be pointless disputes over gameplay preferences.
I also play competitive NS2 but i don't play matches very often with my team because even tho i really enjoy the teamplay, 6v6 is just horrible for a strategic game like this, it's..... counterstrike :O
There is supposed to be a war between humans and aliens, and less than 20 players just cant give that feeling.
And btw it sounds stupid that 6v6 would have more strategy than 12v12, its the complete opposite. Less there are players more important the player invidual skill becomes, and the more there are players less impact will some wannabe Fatal1ty make because he just wont have enough bullets against 12 aliens stomping him
way to paint with the big brush...personally speaking, I felt really comfortable with 20+ early on. but have become progressively more comfortable with smaller numbers. hard to ambush a marine when they travel in packs of 4. phase gates go up so friggin fast when 4 guys power it... flying a lerk around with packs of.4 roaming gets really dangerous. I shudder to imagine 24 man servers with marines that can all actually aim.
Let me get this straight. You are arguing that people who say the devs designed the game for a certain number of players are wrong because the devs have said that they want to support more players. You admit that the game in its present state breaks down at larger player counts and that the devs have not actually implemented any methods to actually make the game playable at larger player counts.
And you say that the people saying the game wasn't designed for larger player counts are doing this to bolster their self esteem? (
First off, I think you may be confusing the word designed with the word conceived. Did they conceive of NS2 working with larger player counts? Obviously. Did they design it to work with larger player counts? Obviously not (or they are incompetent, which clearly they are not).
My take on it is this:
Did the developers say they wanted to support larger player counts? Yes.
Do they currently? No.
What is more relevant, words or action? Action.
Have the developers actions supported larger player counts? No.
Since Actions > Words, the devs do not currently support larger player counts.
IMHO, all other arguments are semantics or hypothetical.
Honestly, I don't really care too much and I am one of those people who likes to argue (I'm thinking you are guilty of this too Eddie) and I don't want this to actually upset anyone. I agree that the game should work for slightly larger player counts. People obviously love the combat-esque gameplay of larger servers and UWE needs to give the players what they want. I'm sure they will do the design work needed to address the larger player count servers in the near future and then hopefully everyone can find the flavor of NS that suits them best.