ARCS need a limit!

MaLuSMaLuS Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182769Members
edited March 2013 in NS2 General Discussion
I was on a server with a group of new players doing the free weekend, so i was showing them what everything is and this is how the marines ended the game...

<img src="https://us.v-cdn.net/5019629/uploads/FileUpload/c8/2844625b5f02aab14fac45ba0c342d.jpg&quot; />

Take a look at this screenshot and tell me how you would counter this, there was so many arcs that it lagged the server while they were moving and the server crashed when they fired.

A commander should not be able to make this many arcs, it is not counter-able.

Edit:
As people are getting stuck on the balance issue or what happened in this particular game i would like to state that it is not the balance issue that im raising. The issue is no team should be able to make so many entities on the map that it would result in a server crash, for this reason i believe there should be an upper limit on the entities that each team could possibly make so to prevent someone from using this to crash a server.
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Comments

  • AngeluszAngelusz Harmonic entropist Join Date: 2003-07-10 Member: 18072Members, Forum Moderators, Constellation, NS2 Playtester
    Bile bombs! This is an excessive amount indeed. You won't see this many in a 'normal' game - there's never that many resources available to a team. If there are, the game will end way before the comm can build this many. The only way to get to this point, is by dragging out the game unneccesarily (/intentionally). So, not a problem.
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I just shat myself laughing.
  • TheriusTherius Join Date: 2009-03-06 Member: 66642Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Supporter
    Bile bomb counters any amount of ARCs, and if the marine commander had that many resources available, he would have been able to end the game and win much earlier anyway. This is just a matter of goofing around.

    Though a hard cap on ARCs would still not be a bad thing. I find it strange that the 5 per CC limit is on MACs, which will rarely be used in numbers, but there's no limit on the amount of ARCs.
  • MaLuSMaLuS Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182769Members
    they camped the base and pushed with exos stopped the new player getting in there to stop them, most of the players on alien it was their first ever round so they didnt know what to do and even telling them didnt help coz they couldn't get close to stop them. my point is there should be a cap on the number of arcs that can be built. this number of arcs actually crashed the server.
  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    3-5 per CC would be a good limit.
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
    Based on your Screenshot I'd say a limit of 50 would make sense ^^
  • Wyattx3Wyattx3 Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18386Members
    There already is, in effect, a limit on the number of arcs you can produce. It's the number of resource towers you allow the marines to hold. Should a marine team be able to create and secure 50 ARCs, they should win; and imposing a hard cap on them just doesn't make sense.
  • MaLuSMaLuS Join Date: 2013-02-02 Member: 182769Members
    the map control was 50/50 5 res tower each
  • current1ycurrent1y Join Date: 2003-12-08 Member: 24150Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester
    Angelusz wrote: »
    Bile bombs! This is an excessive amount indeed. You won't see this many in a 'normal' game - there's never that many resources available to a team. If there are, the game will end way before the comm can build this many. The only way to get to this point, is by dragging out the game unneccesarily (/intentionally). So, not a problem.

    With new players this isn't necessarily true. Was comming a game last night and granted i am a terrible comm the marines just failed to push into a hive w/o getting caught at the door and eventually dieing. This is with A/W 3 jetpacks and exos. So i built a big arc army and 2 shotted warehouse twice, repair once, server once and then elevator.



  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    current1y wrote: »
    Angelusz wrote: »
    Bile bombs! This is an excessive amount indeed. You won't see this many in a 'normal' game - there's never that many resources available to a team. If there are, the game will end way before the comm can build this many. The only way to get to this point, is by dragging out the game unneccesarily (/intentionally). So, not a problem.

    With new players this isn't necessarily true. Was comming a game last night and granted i am a terrible comm the marines just failed to push into a hive w/o getting caught at the door and eventually dieing. This is with A/W 3 jetpacks and exos. So i built a big arc army and 2 shotted warehouse twice, repair once, server once and then elevator.



    and in SC2 you can make a 200/200 army of carriers from a single base.

    it's not a problem in a game where the players know roughly what they're doing.


    that said, it would make sense to have a cap... because babblers, hydras, sentry, mac and drifter all have a cap (don't they?). it's very rare that you need more than ~5 ARC's anyway.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    If someone crashes a server with ARCs it's called trolling, not a flaw in game mechanics. =_='

    "Plz remove recycle because people keep recycling the entire base" -No.

    ON ANOTHER NOTE: Bilebomb could use a serious buff. No, seriously, try to Bile ARCs nowdays. It's like 10 biles to kill something. And the AoE range has been nerfed to hell. Bilebomb attacking a base is not worth ANYTHING anymore. Unless the marines take a minute to respond, you're not going to down anything.
  • GorgenapperGorgenapper Join Date: 2012-09-05 Member: 157916Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    If the marines were able to make so many arcs (15 res EACH) and roll them down into your hive without resistance, they were going to win anyway regardless of arcs.
  • mushookeesmushookees Join Date: 2008-03-26 Member: 63967Members
    the fewer arcs the better.

    you want to know why alot of the time nobody bothers to defend ARC's in pubs ? Its because they are a clusterf#$k and an eyesore to be around. Every time i see an ARC ... i want to run in the opposite direction.


  • CrushaKCrushaK Join Date: 2012-11-05 Member: 167195Members, NS2 Playtester
    Yeah, Bile Bomb got overnerfed. Splash reduction, range reduction and damage reduction were too much. One of them should be reverted. The problem with Bile was also only really related to Power Node rushing, the rest was fine.
    Maybe there should only be a limit on how many Bile Bombs can stack on a structure at a time or just buff Nanoshield to give more protection against them.
  • Racer1Racer1 Join Date: 2002-11-22 Member: 9615Members
    Perhaps a better way of saying it: "Commander controlled units needs a limit". Make it a sufficiently high number so as to not hit it in a normal match, but enough to keep spam from becoming an issue and crashing the server on long games. 50 total should easily be enough.
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call? Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited March 2013
    That is quite some epic troll. How, if you were 5 res nodes a piece throughout the game, did you not have an entire team of oni 10 minutes before this arc train? You could have swarmed their other bases 5 times over in the time it takes to get the resources, build, move, depoy and fire those arcs.

    I lol'd

    EDIT:

    so that's about 50 arcs or so by the look of it. That's 50*15 res + the research and building cost... that's in the region of 800 resources right there. 800.


    800






    EIGHT
    HUNDRED
  • ijustpwnedu96ijustpwnedu96 Join Date: 2013-01-27 Member: 182320Members
    Limit arcs to 5 or 10 max.
  • oldassgamersoldassgamers Join Date: 2011-02-02 Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    I do agree. ARc's most have a limit so people won't spam arcs which cause server performance.
  • Brad_RBrad_R pandas | brad Join Date: 2002-11-12 Member: 8273Members, Constellation
    Make a game-changing limit based on a pic of newbs goofing around. Great thread.
  • RisingSunRisingSun Rising California Join Date: 2004-04-19 Member: 28015Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited March 2013
    No arc limit. This is a means to an end. If the marine team is allowed to amass this much they deserve to steam roll everything.

    If only Aliens had something similar. I guess you could say the onos and onos eggs, but as we all know new players arent aggressive enough and whips are pointless :(

    Edit - A hard limit of 50 or so to save the server would be good, but nothing that limits gameplay like a 3-4 limit.
  • It's Super Effective!It's Super Effective! Join Date: 2012-08-28 Member: 156625Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    Given the opportunity, aliens could spam just as many server crashing entities, hallucinations, whips, etc. While some sort of limit (probably high) should be made for the sake of server stability, it shouldn't be made because of situations like this.

    $0.02
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    There is a limit on ARCs, they call them 'extractors'. Kill off the extractors and they won't be able to afford them.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    Savant wrote: »
    There is a limit on ARCs, they call them 'extractors'. Kill off the extractors and they won't be able to afford them.

    Then expand this to everything. No Sentry, MAC or drifter limit either.

  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think it's fair to put a high limit on ARCs for server performance reasons. Gameplay-wise though I don't see any issue with this, it's a joke strat. The aliens have countless ways to handle it.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    I think people are concentrating too much on the picture in the OP.
    A limit on ARCs isn't to prevent 100 of them from rolling directly into the hive and destroying it. Its to prevent 10 from rolling directly into the hive and destroying it.

    From the first shot, 10 ARCs will take 5 seconds to knock a hive from 100 to 0. I know we live in a new age of instant gratification and fast paced gameplay, but I think 5 seconds to destroy an enemies primary base is pushing it a little, especially considering that zero actual players are involved.

    And if you think 10 ARCs is a clear sign that aliens are being bad, lets take a look at what we consider typical in a game of NS2.
    Firstly, marines should always have more res nodes than the aliens. Apparently that is a prerequisite. Secondly, there are 9 extractors on an average map, which means that even if its split straight down the middle (unlikely), that's 5 extractors to the marines, which is one ARC every 18 seconds. 10 ARCs is far from unlikely, and almost a sure thing in a stalemate game, in which the marines can critical mass, but the aliens can't.

    This kind of play requires no finesse, no skill, no forward thinking, no strategy.
    5 seconds is too short. 2 ARCs per comm chair.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Limits are not balancing tools, strofix.

    Using them as such sounds very cheap and unimaginative.
  • WakeWake Join Date: 2003-03-05 Member: 14351Members, Constellation
    MaLuS wrote: »
    they camped the base and pushed with exos stopped the new player getting in there to stop them, most of the players on alien it was their first ever round so they didnt know what to do and even telling them didnt help coz they couldn't get close to stop them. my point is there should be a cap on the number of arcs that can be built. this number of arcs actually crashed the server.

    x => Concede !

  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    Limits are not balancing tools, strofix.

    Using them as such sounds very cheap and unimaginative.

    How many bullets you got in a magazine?

  • MMZ_TorakMMZ_Torak Join Date: 2002-11-02 Member: 3770Members
    If this had happened at any time other than a free weekend, it might carry some weight. However, I still can't wrap my head around how the aliens let them build this many ARCs AND let them get into position, other than being totally oblivious to what is going on around them. That lack of awareness is not a game fault; but a player fault.
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