Build 241 is now live on Steam! - Natural Selection 2

SystemSystem Join Date: 2013-01-29 Member: 182599Members, Super Administrators, Reinforced - Diamond
edited March 2013 in NS2 General Discussion

imageBuild 241 is now live on Steam! - Natural Selection 2

In the battle that is the shipping of a big patch, we do our best to achieve total victory. The bane of our development lives is the ‘hotfix.’ Hotfixes are horrible. They suck up disproportionate amounts of development time, they are inefficient uses of development resources, and just generally suck.

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  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    Bump to get comment thread to show up.
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2013
    At their release, Babblers were a little bit useless. This uselessness boiled down to the fact that they were too slow to keep up with their host Gorge, catch players it by the baitball, and close distance with marines. Now, they are much faster, and much more useful.
    However, some of this improvement came from a bug causing Skulk’s to lose momentum when they hit the ground. That is fixed in 241, so we expect the probability of marine wins to decrease back below 0.5 for now.
    Fixed bug where Alien attacks got blocked by attached Babblers.

    :)
  • StrikerX3StrikerX3 Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168423Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Walls received an extra coating of super-strength glue which causes skulks to lose all momentum when touching them. :(
  • countbasiecountbasie Join Date: 2008-12-27 Member: 65884Members
  • KioKio Join Date: 2013-03-01 Member: 183501Members
    What about a fix to the mic bug?
  • .ADHd.ADHd Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
    StrikerX3 wrote: »
    Walls received an extra coating of super-strength glue which causes skulks to lose all momentum when touching them. :(

    Please god no.
  • StrikerX3StrikerX3 Join Date: 2012-11-08 Member: 168423Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    .ADHd wrote: »
    Please god no.

    If you manage to reach 11 speed walljumping on a straight clean wall (think Cargo force field) you're a god.
  • MrChokeMrChoke Join Date: 2012-12-13 Member: 174990Members, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Shadow
    Let me rationalize this a bit. The game is the most balanced ever at 50.7%. Ok, let's change it and make sure marines start getting owned again. Thanks. Just when I started really liking the game again along comes this change.

    You call marines able to actually shoot a skulk every now and then a bug. I call it a critical fix. And now its back to BROKEN again. Marines were winning because in early game they could actually hold RT for more than 2 seconds.

    Let me ask you, as much as you hate hot fixes, are we going to get one to balance the game again? What will bring the game back to 50.7% or better and when will we have see it?
  • nsguynsguy Join Date: 2010-01-03 Member: 69869Members
    Okay, time to see whether the skulk is enjoyable to play again.
  • droenndroenn Join Date: 2013-03-07 Member: 183750Members
    Awesome, I'm looking forward to Skulking around later tonight then!
  • Wombat o_OWombat o_O Join Date: 2012-02-29 Member: 147769Members
    MrChoke wrote: »
    Let me rationalize this a bit. The game is the most balanced ever at 50.7%. Ok, let's change it and make sure marines start getting owned again. Thanks. Just when I started really liking the game again along comes this change.

    You call marines able to actually shoot a skulk every now and then a bug. I call it a critical fix. And now its back to BROKEN again. Marines were winning because in early game they could actually hold RT for more than 2 seconds.

    Let me ask you, as much as you hate hot fixes, are we going to get one to balance the game again? What will bring the game back to 50.7% or better and when will we have see it?

    Learn to aim and you won't have that problem...
  • RockyMarcRockyMarc Join Date: 2009-11-24 Member: 69519Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Good starting patch after the Gorgey update :)
  • DraptorDraptor Join Date: 2013-03-05 Member: 183721Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited March 2013
    Aiming is only half the battle. Maintaining good sightlines, forcing the skulk to cross open ground towards you, and awareness of the geometry around you are often overlooked.
  • _jay_jay Join Date: 2012-11-04 Member: 166951Members
    edited March 2013
    MrChoke wrote: »
    Let me rationalize this a bit. The game is the most balanced ever at 50.7%. Ok, let's change it and make sure marines start getting owned again. Thanks. Just when I started really liking the game again along comes this change.

    I've posted this in another thread, so I hope the mods don't mind me cross posting this but I think this is perfectly relevant as a reply for this. If it isn't, I apologise in advance.

    'Fair' is an illusion between 239 and 240. Take a close look at that second bar on wins by round length. And before you say it, yes I have included modded servers, however it is far better to have a larger sample size where effects of mods become more irrelevant as it's likely they would provide benefits either way especially when we're looking at a base mechanic. Ignore anything after halfway mark (35mins) of the Wins by Round Length graph as the size of these is statistically meaningless.

    239:
    EdFqQo0.gif


    240:
    uRnVC2Q.gif
  • ChizzlerChizzler Join Date: 2013-01-04 Member: 177532Members
    MrChoke wrote: »
    Let me rationalize this a bit. The game is the most balanced ever at 50.7%. Ok, let's change it and make sure marines start getting owned again. Thanks. Just when I started really liking the game again along comes this change.

    You call marines able to actually shoot a skulk every now and then a bug. I call it a critical fix. And now its back to BROKEN again. Marines were winning because in early game they could actually hold RT for more than 2 seconds.

    Let me ask you, as much as you hate hot fixes, are we going to get one to balance the game again? What will bring the game back to 50.7% or better and when will we have see it?

    The skulk movement this fix addresses was a bug. The fact that it lead to a more balanced game is irrelevant...I Can't think of any game where a bug would be left in because it didn't break balance.

    I've loved build 240, and had a higher proportion of balanced matches, but if something is broken and doesn't fit in with the developers vision (in this case, the way skulks play) then i have no problem with them changing it. I don't think we'll drop back to a 60-40 split as a result of this fix due to the other changes (such as improved hit reg) so there'll still be good matches to be had and the developers can focus on improving balance whilst maintaining unit's play styles that were intended.

    Basically, go and give the new build a chance before you moan about broken game balance
  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    I was really hoping I was going to be able to play with the new build. :(
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    I'm trying bentring! :)
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    _jay wrote: »
    NS2Stats Graphs

    Please, everyone that looks at these graphs, remember that the sample size here is relatively small. That's not to say NS2Stats.org is not a valid source of information. It absolutely is. It is one of the best community initiatives in NS2, right up there with Summit and ENSL.org. But the sample size is limited and the sample a specific subset of servers with a propensity to host players with a particular playstyle. It provides amazing information into competitive play especially.

    When I give out a number like I did in the news post (0.507) that is a parameter, not a statistic. There is a very important distinction. That's why you will see a difference between what I say was the win probability in 240 and what NS2Stats.org says it is. Neither is lying.
  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    IronHorse wrote: »
    I'm trying bentring! :)

    I know! :) Just a subtle poke at the folks that love to complain that it could be worse. ;)
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    _jay wrote: »
    NS2Stats Graphs
    When I give out a number like I did in the news post (0.507) that is a parameter, not a statistic.

    I'm taking a entirely soul-destroying course in statistics right now. I wish that in the future, parameters will be used all the time, instead of statistical things that hurt the brain.
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    edited March 2013
    Then, lo and behold, the game did swing to 0.5. However, the method by which it got there was unacceptable to a very vocal and passionate group of NS2 players.
    To be fair Hugh, they are also an extremely small group of NS2 players, perhaps 1/100th of one percent of the 300,000+ customers you have. While they shouldn't be ignored, their objections shouldn't be considered gospel either. While you have a game to balance, you also have considerations like this to 'balance' as well. :)

    I should be clear, I agree with the need to fix what was clearly an unintentional change to the skulk. Just because it balances the game, keeping a broken game mechanic doesn't do anyone any favours since sooner or later you're gonna have to fix it. However, perhaps what could have been done was to counterbalance the skulk change with another change to soften the blow. (not to mention you have proposed changes like this that might swing things even further)

    Hey, once the stats come in, you'll look at it and see where you need to go. I'm not worried. I just hope that we don't end up back where we started with 60/40. It would be a shame, given how even things have been in the last couple days and how much work you guys have done.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    MrChoke wrote: »
    Let me rationalize this a bit. The game is the most balanced ever at 50.7%. Ok, let's change it and make sure marines start getting owned again. Thanks. Just when I started really liking the game again along comes this change.

    You call marines able to actually shoot a skulk every now and then a bug. I call it a critical fix. And now its back to BROKEN again. Marines were winning because in early game they could actually hold RT for more than 2 seconds.

    Let me ask you, as much as you hate hot fixes, are we going to get one to balance the game again? What will bring the game back to 50.7% or better and when will we have see it?

    Balance is important, but fixing major bugs is more important, as is preserving the fun of the core gameplay. Besides, as long as the bug is there the balance stats are tainted and the true state of the game's balance cannot be measured, which hinders further balance work.
  • ChrisAUSChrisAUS Join Date: 2012-11-17 Member: 172108Members
    Savant wrote: »
    I should be clear, I agree with the need to fix what was clearly an unintentional change to the skulk. Just because it balances the game, keeping a broken game mechanic doesn't do anyone any favours since sooner or later you're gonna have to fix it. However, perhaps what could have been done was to counterbalance the skulk change with another change to soften the blow.

    Hey, once the stats come in, you'll look at it and see where you need to go.

    Come on man, give 'em a chance! The best way to actually make proper balance changes is the way they are doing it.

    Fix bugs that are messing with balance, let the build play awhile and then see which direction the build takes.

    Saying: "Since you fixed the skulk bug you should blindly change something else to nerf aliens" would probably end up with the balance getting worse and then you have to change that back in the future, find out where you are at and then you can finally start moving forwards.

    Like you said in the last paragraph, now they can let the stats come in and work on the knowledge gained from that.
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members
    Savant wrote: »
    To be fair Hugh, they are also an extremely small group of NS2 players, perhaps 1/100th of one percent of the 300,000+ customers you have. While they shouldn't be ignored, their objections shouldn't be considered gospel either.

    To be fair Savant, you could say that by ANY group arguing any points in this forum. Only a very small percentage of the people who bought this game post on the forums.

  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    Res wrote: »
    Savant wrote: »
    To be fair Hugh, they are also an extremely small group of NS2 players, perhaps 1/100th of one percent of the 300,000+ customers you have. While they shouldn't be ignored, their objections shouldn't be considered gospel either.
    To be fair Savant, you could say that by ANY group arguing any points in this forum. Only a very small percentage of the people who bought this game post on the forums.
    I agree 100%. Personally I think the devs should be balancing the game on what they think is best for ALL of their 300,000+ customers.

  • GoldenGolden Join Date: 2004-09-01 Member: 31169Members, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Silver, NS2 Community Developer
    StrikerX3 wrote: »
    .ADHd wrote: »
    Please god no.

    If you manage to reach 11 speed walljumping on a straight clean wall (think Cargo force field) you're a god.

    ...

    11 speed is easy there. I know some people that can read 18-20.

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