Sewlek's Beta Test Mod

halfofaheavenhalfofaheaven Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168660Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Gold
edited June 2013 in NS2 General Discussion
http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=130391092

Boom.

IMO the first balance mod that looks promising.

Any servers running this?
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Comments

  • YMICrazyYMICrazy Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165986Members
    Armory heals no armor? Srsly. I like how he takes into account player scaling though.
  • XariusXarius Join Date: 2003-12-21 Member: 24630Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    edited March 2013
    Omg yes, this mod looks amazing. Now all it needs is focus upgrade and camo/silence merged into one upgrade and I will throw my money at Sewlek.

    Only thing I'm a little on the fence about is crag change, if they get rid of heal stacking they should probably consider boosting its healrate a little. Somebody please host this on a server!
  • YMICrazyYMICrazy Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165986Members
    WasabiOne wrote: »
    this mod is being assembled for massive testing before possible implementation the game. it will be changing a lot over the next week or so, then it will be loaded onto 20+ servers for public testing and feedback.

    I think I heard in one your podcasts that they were thinking about including a button on the front page that tells people what the server is for and to connect if they wanted to test a few changes. Will this be added? I think it's a good way to actually get people to join.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    Looks interesting, although I don't quite understand what biomass does?
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    edited March 2013
    Typhon wrote: »
    Looks interesting, although I don't quite understand what biomass does?

    Unlocks alien abilities. Instead of individually researching abilities, you would simply upgrade the Biomass level of your hive(s). Each ability requires a certain amount of biomass before it automatically unlocks. Gorge Tunnels require 2 Biomass. Leap/blink require 3, etc etc. All the way up to the endgame abilities which require 9 (3 hives fully upgraded to max Biomass). Each hive can have up to 3 Biomass levels, each level costing more res to research (it's 30 res to upgrade to a level 2 Biomass hive, 50 for a level 3 Biomass hive iirc).
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    edited March 2013
    I suppose the idea is that particular lifeforms don't get 'left behind' due to the commander not investing the tres to get their abilities?

    And that would be in keeping with shells unlocking Regen and Cara together, not one or the other.

    Removes some khammander decision making, but the alien players gain some as a result.

    Interesting, I look forward to trying this out.
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I think he uses his balance mod as a testbed for different potential changes. Ones that work well are sometimes included into the game (e.g. early versions of the infestation spikes and bubbly infestation).
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Not necessarily. While that's a positive side effect that no one's favorite ability or upgrade gets "forgotten", it also in effect expands the options for the alien commander. Would you go for Biomass 2 or Upgrade or 2nd Hive first? And at what rate, rush biomass 3 or wait until you can get your tier 3 shell upgrades up? Would you want to turtle on 1 hive and go for the more expensive level 3 Biomass hive or drop an expansion hive and get a cheaper level 2 Biomass hive?

    At the very least I would say the Alien commander loses nothing in terms of tech paths/choices. In the best case scenario the Khamm would have several viable opening strategies to choose from.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    edited March 2013
    Ah, true, it hadn't clicked in my brain that this means some abilities can be unlocked on one hive. That does increase khamm choices too.

    And with the new chamber system the marines have to kill multiple structures to remove an upgrade, and for aliens to get it back they just have to rebuild the structures, rather than build and upgrade.

    Looking forward to this even more then!
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members
    really?... armory not healing armor..... so dumb.

    Everything else looks pretty interesting though. Would be interested to know about movement code changes.
  • gnoarchgnoarch Join Date: 2012-08-29 Member: 156802Members, Reinforced - Gold
    edited March 2013
    Sounds exciting.
    Only question for me is: WTF is khamm doing then?
    I mean deciding which upgrades come when is one of the few things a khamm can control at the moment. If youre doing shells/spurs/veils NS1 style as well as lifeform abilities, all khamm has to do is count res ticks and press the proper button.
    Dont get me wrong, I don't think it's neccessarily bad but I think the next step will be to think really hard whether khamm is needed or his remaining 3 tasks can't be given to the players.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    Sound like drifters will become something needing more active usage, rather than just parking them somewhere to scout, so there's that.
  • gnoarchgnoarch Join Date: 2012-08-29 Member: 156802Members, Reinforced - Gold
    well, but do you really think managing drifters is a big enough task? Especially as the "real" abilities like illusion will cost res which you should save for the next "click on X res"
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    edited March 2013
    Could say the of the comm. Why med/ammo drop when you could just save the res to click the next upgrade button at base? Problem has always been that the khamm's abilities have always been so lackluster compared to the comm's which are extremely useful.

    Make the khamm's abilities useful enough and he'll have plenty to do aside from clicking the next upgrade.
  • gnoarchgnoarch Join Date: 2012-08-29 Member: 156802Members, Reinforced - Gold
    well, comm has lots of buildings/bases to manage and actually decides which weapons and upgrades come next.
    If there were just CC(including ONE upgrade you can research multiple times aka biomass), Armory, Arms Lab, MACs(which spawn from CCs) and meds/ammo, then at least I would say yes, comm is not neccessary.
  • ResRes Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20245Members
    edited March 2013
    dux wrote: »
    Good to see the armoury armour healing removed.....
    .

    why... why... why? It makes no sense whatsoever.


    Marines should have at least someway to heal armor outside of counting on a teammate to spend 5 p.res on a welder AND spend the time to heal you.

    I'm all for promoting teamplay and causing marines to stick together when attacking, but not when it comes to the characters personal hp/armor when they are AT A BASE.... well.... I guess it would force the comm to build MAC's to heal armor.... which is pretty absurd.
  • invTempestinvTempest Join Date: 2003-03-02 Member: 14223Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    I put up a server running this mod for people to test if they want - "Team Inversion Balance Mod | Sponsored by NS2servers.com"

    You can type "connect inv.ns2servers.com" in console to join.
  • BentRingBentRing Join Date: 2003-03-04 Member: 14318Members
    I'll definitely be trying this once it's out.
  • briatxbriatx Join Date: 2013-01-18 Member: 180352Members
    Armories not healing armor is absolutely insane.

    Maybe if welders were free... but even then I have a baaaad feeling about this.
  • Slyfox101Slyfox101 Join Date: 2012-11-11 Member: 169370Members
    edited March 2013
    Res wrote: »
    dux wrote: »
    Good to see the armoury armour healing removed.....
    .

    why... why... why? It makes no sense whatsoever.


    Marines should have at least someway to heal armor outside of counting on a teammate to spend 5 p.res on a welder AND spend the time to heal you.

    I'm all for promoting teamplay and causing marines to stick together when attacking, but not when it comes to the characters personal hp/armor when they are AT A BASE.... well.... I guess it would force the comm to build MAC's to heal armor.... which is pretty absurd.

    Nope. Gorges = Welders + Medpacks for aliens.

    Gorge = 10 pres, likely more on hydras/tunnels
    Welder = 5 pres
    Medpacks = 1 tres each

    This sounds pretty balanced to me, which is the point of this test.

    It also makes armor upgrades more useful. Most of the time you see marines lose all of their armor, get medpacks back to 100 hp and then continue to fight with no armor. This will encourage team-welding which will result in marines having their armor more often.

    I like the changes a lot. Not sure about Biomass.
  • YMICrazyYMICrazy Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165986Members
    edited March 2013
    Res wrote: »
    dux wrote: »
    Good to see the armoury armour healing removed.....
    .

    why... why... why? It makes no sense whatsoever.

    Marines should have at least someway to heal armor outside of counting on a teammate to spend 5 p.res on a welder AND spend the time to heal you.
    I'm all for promoting teamplay and causing marines to stick together when attacking, but not when it comes to the characters personal hp/armor when they are AT A BASE.

    It's ridiculous. Try that on aliens as well. Only a Gorge can heal armor. Within pubs being dependent on teammates to heal armor with a welder is a bad idea. Especially because it makes them not wield a gun and use a welder that heals one target making 2 people vulnerable in addition to wasting 5 res which we all know pubs are likely not to do. Hard enough right now getting people to weld the most basic of structures and so this is my main concern. I doubt this will stop armory humping because even with negating the armor effect, now people will run back when they lose health because they will feel more vulnerable without armor.

    People are already not spending pres on welders in pubs because they are saving up for exo or whatever. Not to mention the xenocides late game that will absolutely make playing annoying and more frustrating. If NS2 pubs always had players where team work and camaraderie were present this would work fantastically. However if you spend a lot of time in pubs you will know how most players act. I had a guy with 55 pres yell for others to get a welder when he was an exo and yet he refused to get one when he died and some one else was an exo even though I died welding his butt earlier.

    Gorge bile bombs/alien attacks will tear down armor even from level 3 and after that point you better hope someone is nice enough to purchase a welder if you have a lot of expensive gear on you because no one is doing it now.

  • Slyfox101Slyfox101 Join Date: 2012-11-11 Member: 169370Members
    edited March 2013
    Res wrote: »
    dux wrote: »
    Good to see the armoury armour healing removed.....
    .

    why... why... why? It makes no sense whatsoever.

    Marines should have at least someway to heal armor outside of counting on a teammate to spend 5 p.res on a welder AND spend the time to heal you.
    I'm all for promoting teamplay and causing marines to stick together when attacking, but not when it comes to the characters personal hp/armor when they are AT A BASE.

    It's ridiculous. Try that on aliens as well. Only a Gorge can heal armor. Being dependent on teammates to heal armor with a welder is a bad idea. Especially because it makes them not wield a gun and use a welder that heals one target making 2 people vulnerable in addition to wasting 5 res. Not to mention the xeno cides late game that will absolute make playing annoying and more frustrating.

    Gorge bile bombs/alien attacks will tear down armor even from level 3 and after that point you better hope someone is nice enough to purchase a welder because no one is doing it now.

    Seriously? Do you ever see Xenocide used to help win a game? Do you ever see Gorges using bile bomb to take down marine armor?

    If anything, these changes will promote those underused mechanics. Being dependent on teammates is exactly what this game is about.

    Did you miss the commander role?

    EDIT: If you're going to disagree with my post, at least respond and tell me why. Otherwise I will regard it as a troll.
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
    Typhon wrote: »
    I suppose the idea is that particular lifeforms don't get 'left behind' due to the commander not investing the tres to get their abilities?

    And that would be in keeping with shells unlocking Regen and Cara together, not one or the other.

    Removes some khammander decision making, but the alien players gain some as a result.

    Interesting, I look forward to trying this out.

    yeah exactly, those were the reasons for the change. keep in mind when playing that mod, its very early stages and probably completely changes. especially the movement code will change. you can imagine that such kind of a change is not something you can "just implement" and it works.
  • YMICrazyYMICrazy Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 165986Members
    edited March 2013
    Slyfox101 wrote: »

    Seriously? Do you ever see Xenocide used to help win a game? Do you ever see Gorges using bile bomb to take down marine armor?

    If anything, these changes will promote those underused mechanics. Being dependent on teammates is exactly what this game is about.

    Did you miss the commander role?

    First off I am speaking for pubs.

    As marine teams advance they lose armor. Unless someone is nice enough to bring welders which they usually do not you will be likely wiped out unless your team is heavily coordinated which pubs are usually not. Especially during those heavy armory pushes where everything turns hectic do you think people will whip out their welders and weld with that slow rate and risk getting killed? Once your armor goes down you will not get it back unless you are welded. This includes when your main base is being assaulted. The only way I can see this working is if welders are 0 pres and you have a choice between the switch axe and a welder. Then I will be ok with it. I am specifically talking about pubs which people horde their pres. They will not buy them. That is my issue. Xenocide will just add to the frustration late game and bile bomb is targeted at exos with marines trying to weld them. Forward bases will be much weaker.

  • tarquinbbtarquinbb Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166314Members
    lol another divide - armory heal armour or not?

    personally i hate the idea of having 100 hp and no armour in late game... you'd get instagibbed by anything and lose all of your gear. the only way to prevent that is running around the map looking for a guy with a welder?

    it might be okay in comp play, but pub players aren't reliable enough. i'd literally have to run back to spawn and type 'kill', then respawn with my armor.

    aliens have crags and hives to heal armour, in addition to gorge.
  • Slyfox101Slyfox101 Join Date: 2012-11-11 Member: 169370Members
    edited March 2013
    Slyfox101 wrote: »

    Seriously? Do you ever see Xenocide used to help win a game? Do you ever see Gorges using bile bomb to take down marine armor?

    If anything, these changes will promote those underused mechanics. Being dependent on teammates is exactly what this game is about.

    Did you miss the commander role?

    As marine teams advance they lose armor. Unless someone is nice enough to bring welders which they usually do not you will be likely wiped out unless your team is heavily coordinated which pubs are usually not. Especially during those heavy armory pushes where everything turns hectic do you think people will whip out their welders and weld with that slow rate and risk getting killed? Once your armor goes down you will not get it back unless you are welded. This includes when your main base is being assaulted. The only way I can see this working is if welders are 0 pres and you have a choice between the switch axe and a welder. Then I will be ok with it. I am specifically talking about pubs which people horde their pres. They will not buy them.

    Yes, I see people with welders now and I expect more people to use them in the future with these changes. The problem you are not considering is that Aliens need to use Gorges to heal out of their base. Marines now use Armories, not Gorges, which do not cost one of your players to have.

    For balance, both teams need to require some sort of personal investment to heal each other to full in combat. For Aliens now, it's Gorges. For Marines it should be Welders, but instead right now it is Armories. I hope this explains why the changes are good at not bad. It only takes a few seconds to weld your buddy to full.

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