Pro Tip: Shade Sux

OnosFactoryOnosFactory New ZealandMembers Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Posts: 990 Advanced user
edited February 2013 in NS2 General Discussion
Lets evaluate this suggestion:

1. Shift: I get to the *pressure zone* *faster*
Shade: I get there *slower compared to shade*

2. Shift: I enter combat with a faster velocity
Shade: I enter combat at a crawl

3. Shift: I am an Alien, my bonus is *mobility*, I have cele, I have + mobility
Shade: I am Alien, my bonus is *mobility*, I have silence, I get to combat *quietly* ... oh, I don't have silence, I have foolish camo, so I get ther with - mobility

4. Full stops at the end of sentances are good things for communication. How about, try Shade hive, and get SILENCE first.

5. Has ANYONE tried this, ever?
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Comments

  • GrayWGrayW UKMembers Join Date: 2009-12-18 Member: 69701Posts: 59 Fully active user
    Silence can be handy when you are sneaking up from behind on Marines / Dropping from the ceiling and have to follow them a little but I always prefer Celerity first to speed up the engagement, especially at the start of the game where map control is the most important, keeping those Marines locked down without RT's.

    So I disagree - Shade doesn't suck, you just need to know when it's appropriate.
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    SpaceJew
  • GrueneMedizinGrueneMedizin Members Join Date: 2012-12-13 Member: 175008Posts: 69 Fully active user
    I agree with OP, shade is making the players more defensive and especially on high pop servers its important to have a shift to spawn some eggs instead of camo. Both camo and silence can be easily countered by scans, obs and a watchful commander.
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  • buhehebuhehe Members Join Date: 2012-05-15 Member: 152140Posts: 131
    Wtf, tonight I dreamed my khammander went Shade Hive first; I was about to rage, but then I noticed he went Silence first instead of camo, so it didn't bother me too much.

    What's wrong with my life?! :3
    whoppaXXL
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Posts: 1,194
    Wow, prime example of the blind denial some people have against some tech trees.

    First of all, no, shade doesn't suck. It can be worse than something, but even with shade you're left with atleast normal skulks, and normal skulks don't suck. Ergo, shade doesn't suck.

    Second, -what second? There's no content in your thread. "+mobility -mobility"? Seriously, this isn't rocket science. So cele gets you there faster, and shade has other advantages. That's it.

    Shade hive is cheap. You can easily afford silence. Just ASK your comm to get it the next time you're pissed off by camo.

    I appreciate you're giving your opinion on the forum instead of raging ingame, but still, atleast try to provide something to discuss.
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  • CiroCiro Members Join Date: 2013-01-09 Member: 178392Posts: 213
    You can go full speed, to get to the target area, then cloak when you're there. Everyone doesn't cloak Hive to target.
  • LunosLunos Members Join Date: 2009-08-18 Member: 68518Posts: 41 Fully active user
    My only gripe with Shade is failure to secure a third hive results in gimped higher lifeforms. Silence > Camo at start if the kham does go shade first.
    NeokendragonmithZeframMinimum
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Posts: 1,194
    I agree with OP, shade is making the players more defensive and especially on high pop servers its important to have a shift to spawn some eggs instead of camo. Both camo and silence can be easily countered by scans, obs and a watchful commander.

    Yes, I wouldn't recommend camo on +18 slot servers. The egg system simply doesn't support that many players well, so shift becomes pretty much essential. 8vs8 and 6vs6 it's easily doable.

    Scans counter camo, but scans cost money, so it's not a "duh just scan" decision. Scan is 3 res and lasts 10sec. The point of camo is to get it early game and deny marines expansions. When marine comm has dropped 2 rts in the start and obs AND started to research phasegates, he can't AFFORD to keep scanning. Hell, aliens with camo should already be giving marine comm trouble to even afford researching phase.

    But if you let marines get a few rt's and a 2nd base with phase, you've already lost the camo game. That's the problem with camo, it's a race. You have to have people doing the right things from the moment the game starts. But it doesn't suck. >_<
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    RegnarebExcitonex
  • kingkrabbe.#bofkingkrabbe.#bof Members Join Date: 2012-10-21 Member: 162892Posts: 87
    I think camo can be a good choice on PUBs because most marine coms I played with don't scan that often. but that depends on the present players/coms in both teams.

    And I remember a round which started with silence first, was pretty great, chomped down marines all over the place, "they never knew what hit em" (to answer the 5. point of the OP).
  • RoobubbaRoobubba Who you gonna call?Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2003-01-06 Member: 11930Posts: 3,191 Fully active user
    Both camo and silence can be easily countered by scans, obs and a watchful commander.

    Silence isn't countered by scans, and it's great for disorienting marines and also not giving away your position when you have to escape. While it's true that, if scanned, you will appear on the marines' hud, that's not the primary bonus of silence and is brought about by sensible marine commanding.

    I'm definitely going off shift first. I do like the extra mobility you get from celerity as a skulk in the early game, but early carapace can be really effective for the first few encounters - exactly where you want it as aliens. Add to that that if you can't get a 3rd hive, you will NEED carapace as one of your upgrades, it sort of makes sense to get it in first! While gorges really do benefit from adrenaline in the absence of a nearby shift, oni with camo and fades and lerks with silence are absolutely deadly - doesn't give the marines any warning that they're coming, and with the insane speeds of fade and lerk, that can be a massive boost to these life forms.
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  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Posts: 1,194
    Lunos wrote: »
    My only gripe with Shade is failure to secure a third hive results in gimped higher lifeforms. Silence > Camo at start if the kham does go shade first.


    Yes, when camo is up marine objective is to get 3 tech points with obs and phasegates up. Then they pretty much win. Alien objective is to secure 3 hives. With shade hive you're supposed to have greater pressure in the very beginning, (res wise) so that marines can't afford those 3 bases before you've secured them.
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  • |strofix||strofix| Members Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Posts: 1,028 Fully active user
    My biggest problem with shade is how the structure itself defeats the purpose of one of the path's upgrades, if not both of them.
  • GrayWGrayW UKMembers Join Date: 2009-12-18 Member: 69701Posts: 59 Fully active user
    Roobubba wrote: »
    Both camo and silence can be easily countered by scans, obs and a watchful commander.
    lerks with silence are absolutely deadly - doesn't give the marines any warning that they're coming, and with the insane speeds of fade and lerk, that can be a massive boost to these life forms.

    Love my Silent Lerking :)

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  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Posts: 1,194
    I think camo can be a good choice on PUBs because most marine coms I played with don't scan that often. but that depends on the present players/coms in both teams.

    That's the most ridiculous thing about this whole argument. I haven't seen a SINGLE COMM ever properly "countering camo" with scans. Some have given good effort but NONE have been able to keep 2 fronts covered, resulting in marines getting slaughtered. Myself? I just scan a couple times to get rines to a tech point and then have them sit there with an obs till I get res for a phase.

    So I suppose I'm just not playing on these servers (EU) where the master chief comms always utterly decimate camo skulks with their perfectly anticipated scans or whatever...
    image
  • _Necro__Necro_ Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Posts: 1,904 Fully active user
    Oh, we are playing the "all tactics beside my preferred one sucks"-game again? *yawn*

    You know what? I don't research any upgrade at the start. Because skulks are effective enough in early game. I get as many RTs as we can defend instead. And than I drop a 2nd hive, because in the time it takes to be built, I have enough res to get the upgrades. And than I even have enough res to get Leap and the 2nd upgrades as soon as the hive is up. Essentially delaying early game upgrades for a tech explosion in mid game. Works most of the times.
    SpaceJew
  • |strofix||strofix| Members Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Posts: 1,028 Fully active user
    edited February 2013
    I think a big point of confusion, for experienced players especially, is the way a shade hive can reverse the norm.

    Everyone knows that a big reason marines lose a lot of games is because they aren't offensive enough. You really need to get good pressure going in order to keep aliens from expanding too quickly and taking too much territory. Once they do, their 2 hive strength increases and increases until you get pushed further and further into your base. Many players identify this and think "attack attack attack", no matter the circumstance.

    This is where shade hives become interesting. Because of the nature of the shade upgrades, and the shade structure, it is incredibly good at locking down a very localized area. When you put a shade down somewhere, it becomes very difficult to take that area, especially when the skulks their receive both silence and cloaking. Even the ink cloud does a great job of making it very difficult to take the location back. However, cloaking is very static, in both forms, and the benefit of silence can be very circumstantial. This is why marines who attack vigorously into alien territory tend to get shut down very quickly.

    It seems almost perfect. Aggressive marines get shut down, and marines have to be aggressive to not lose. But it isn't.
    As many people have said, if the game lasts into the mid to late, aliens need a third hive. Camo is great early, and crag then serves to back that up, but without shift, aliens can really struggle against top tech marines. This actually serves to reverse the dynamic previously established. Now its the marines who shouldn't be moving into alien territory too vigorously, and the aliens who are forced to expand into at least 3 tech points. If marines simply move diligently into 2 additional tech rooms, and defend correctly, by around the 12-14 minute mark, when the jetpacks and exos come out, the aliens simply won't have the correct upgrades to withstand the firepower.
    dragonmithRegnarebExcitonexSpaceJew
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    My preferred first hive right now is crag. After that I'm happy with either, though if it IS shade, silence, NOT camo.
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  • kingkrabbe.#bofkingkrabbe.#bof Members Join Date: 2012-10-21 Member: 162892Posts: 87
    I think camo can be a good choice on PUBs because most marine coms I played with don't scan that often. but that depends on the present players/coms in both teams.

    That's the most ridiculous thing about this whole argument. I haven't seen a SINGLE COMM ever properly "countering camo" with scans. Some have given good effort but NONE have been able to keep 2 fronts covered, resulting in marines getting slaughtered. Myself? I just scan a couple times to get rines to a tech point and then have them sit there with an obs till I get res for a phase.

    So I suppose I'm just not playing on these servers (EU) where the master chief comms always utterly decimate camo skulks with their perfectly anticipated scans or whatever...

    don't get me wrong: I never was in any game where the com was able to defend camo skulks by scanning.

    It's just my general observation that most coms on PUBS I play (EU) almost never scan (when not asked for (several times)). which doesn't mean that most coms are bad, it's just not their priority. and that doesn't change with early camo skulks most of the times.
  • NeokenNeoken Bruges, BelgiumMembers, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Playtester Join Date: 2004-03-20 Member: 27447Posts: 1,305 Advanced user
    edited February 2013
    Lunos wrote: »
    My only gripe with Shade is failure to secure a third hive results in gimped higher lifeforms.

    This. When going shade, you need to finish the game quickly or gain an overwhelming map control. If not, you'll suffer in the long run.
    SpaceJew
  • Mr.GreedyMr.Greedy Members Join Date: 2012-07-21 Member: 154270Posts: 245
    edited February 2013
    Camo is the most effective upgrade in early game. The problem is that most people are not wise enough how to use it. And what they cant figured out that "suxxx" :>
    hakenspitRegnarebCrushaK
  • sotanahtsotanaht Members Join Date: 2013-01-12 Member: 179215Posts: 1,020 Fully active user
    edited February 2013
    Had a kham go shade+silence a few times in the last couple days. It works fairly well, but in the first ~5 minutes of the match I would rather have Camo, silence is better after that I think.

    Fact is, camo is really, REALLY good before they start getting forward obs and/or enough res to comfortably afford scans. Stealth up to marines (usually in pairs) as they start building and you can kill one before he even draws his gun, setting you up for a 1 on 1 with his partner with you already at close range (in an advantage).
  • hakenspithakenspit Members Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Posts: 944
    Mr.Greedy wrote: »
    Camo is the most effective upgrade in early game. The problem is that most people are not wise enough how to use it. And what they cant figured out that "suxxx" :>
    Is a good tactic and have seen it used effectively, shame its not used more as it makes forcing marines to play a game they dont want to play a lot easier.
  • Ghosthree3Ghosthree3 Members, Reinforced - Supporter Join Date: 2010-02-13 Member: 70557Posts: 3,432 Advanced user
    Mr.Greedy wrote: »
    Camo is the most effective upgrade in early game. The problem is that most people are not wise enough how to use it. And what they cant figured out that "suxxx" :>

    IMO camo worst upgrade in the whole game, only regen comes close to being as useless. If you rush camo you risk never getting carapace for your fades.
    76561197996992409.png
  • Mr.GreedyMr.Greedy Members Join Date: 2012-07-21 Member: 154270Posts: 245
    edited February 2013
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    Mr.Greedy wrote: »
    Camo is the most effective upgrade in early game. The problem is that most people are not wise enough how to use it. And what they cant figured out that "suxxx" :>

    IMO camo worst upgrade in the whole game, only regen comes close to being as useless. If you rush camo you risk never getting carapace for your fades.

    Why? U want to come close to meelerange as a skulk, right? Camo do that and you'll not lost any HP. Which other upgrade can do that for u? If u can aim with your skulk-bite , you will win any singel fight . Your first hit is for "free" . The second hit is also pretty easy . Most marines start to react after your second hit and than its to late and he will die if u dont fail your 3. hit.

    Camo costs just 15 res. You can build 2 res towers and upgrade that instantly in 80-90 secs. You can dominate the earlygame. You dont need early shifts because your skulks will simply not die so easily.

    "than he will scan and your advantage is gone". Not realy. A scan costs res. You will lost camo for the moment but marines are slowly on tech now. To fight for a long time vs 0-0 marines is also nice. And do not forget that your camo-skulk become simply a "normal" skulk and arent useless. With a shift/crag hive u have those "normal"-skulks for around 4-7 minutes before u get the first upgrade. Particularly if the khammander decide to go second hive first.

    If u are talking about higher lifeforms and lategame I agree. But silence is very usefull for fade and onos. Especially for onos its very cool because the marines are no more prepared so easily. For skulks in lategame its also nice VS exos. I still see players who dont notice that they are getting atacked ^^ .

    Every hive got his pros and cons. I would say that shade is the best upgrade for combats on open fields and shift is better for sieging bases. I think thats why shade is better for early and shifts are better for lategame. Crag is IMO a must have as a secondhive.

    In the end u can win with every firsthive-upgrade. Its just depends on your playerskills.
    Regnarebhakenspit
  • statikgstatikg Members Join Date: 2012-09-19 Member: 159978Posts: 427 Fully active user
    edited February 2013
    Shift hive is quickly becoming unnecessary as you can see in the recent arc vs mercury games where both teams were employing shade second. However can shade first be effective? I would say, yes, even in competitive play. Camo is very effective for small group fighting but you need to play smart, dont just sit on the floor, attack the rearmost marine if possible and still try to attack in groups. Camo first allows for more agressive res expansion and more drifters as you have more money and have camo which can be very effective defensively. You can't just sit at your harvesters camping it out though because you will get scanned for sure, instead you need to be in forward positions so marines have to scan every room in order to move forward. I would say that camo requires excellent positional play more so then any other alien strategy which is perhaps why its not used much. You also have to keep up on your res biting, which I think is actually easier then normal because once a marine approaches, you can camo and if the commander doesnt scan for him, hes dead, this costs further res and distracts the commander from being offensive.

    But what about when marnies build obs and scan alot? Well, this is actually to your benefit. You want marines to build obs and scan alot because then they are using that res to get upgrades or tech and meanwhile you are still chugging along towards crag hive and fades. When your second hive comes up (which is always crag btw) your fades should be able to tear it up. When you get scanned, instead of engaging like an idiot, run away and restealth and come back, make them waste another 3res. The cost of scanning constantly is actually massive.

    Camo does not support lerk play very well so if your team has a really good lerk you may want to consider that. The biggest problem with shade hive is that their support structure has very little practical use. Its only use is in theoretically defending against arcs but I hanv't actually seen anyone use it in that role. I will probably try to do so in the future.

    I believe that camo is an extremely strong opening, and I legitimately think that even the best players just have not experimented with it sufficiently because of the newb stigma.

    In 12v12 its questionable if its viable because you just need the shift eggs so bad, I am really hopeful UWE will do something about that in a future patch.
  • MestaritonttuMestaritonttu Members, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold Join Date: 2004-07-29 Member: 30229Posts: 1,194
    Ghosthree3 wrote: »
    IMO camo worst upgrade in the whole game, only regen comes close to being as useless. If you rush camo you risk never getting carapace for your fades.

    Who the hell goes shift 2nd with shade first? I mean yeah I've seen it once, but doesn't really happen.

    And Fades are just fine with silence instead of cele or adren. Cele doesn't make you shadowstep any faster, doesn't help you in combat either. I'd actually rather have silence as a fade.
    image
  • gnoarchgnoarch Members, Reinforced - Gold Join Date: 2012-08-29 Member: 156802Posts: 259 Advanced user
    Camo is good if marines dont realize it in the first few encounters, comm is somewhat slow and marines get passive while aliens secure 3 Hives.

    If marines realize its camo and secure 2 additional hives with scans + obs its basically gg the second pgs are up at each hive. If marines are not retarded they get mines and shotguns and defend those two hives + 2/3 rts until JP/W3.
  • |strofix||strofix| Members Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Posts: 1,028 Fully active user
    edited February 2013
    statikg wrote: »
    Shift hive is quickly becoming unnecessary as you can see in the recent arc vs mercury games where both teams were employing shade second.

    I think this is only strictly true in games where attempting to circumvent your opponents aim yields limited returns.

    Also, fades are disproportionately more important in competitive games compared to ordinary games, and fades don't benefit much from shift.

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