Is Skulk air control too powerful?

DestherDesther Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165195Members
Once you are in the air as a skulk you can strafe to the side and adjust your direction of travel to the right or left a fair amount, and even turn around keeping some of the speed. Is it too much?
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Comments

  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    never! it makes the game fun (or stressful, as marines)
  • VigilantiaVigilantia Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 51Members
    Rippsy wrote: »
    The cvar this relates to in the HL engine is called "air accelerate" and is defined as the vector control you have while your avatar is off the ground. It was the basis for strafe jumping in quake and hl.

    In NS2 currently you can actually jump off a platform as an alien, and do a 180 degree turn and land back on the same platform (without leap) this means you cannot predict alien trajectories because they can alter in mid flight. I've been wondering if I should bring this up as a point of discussion for a while. Ultimately without it I think skulks would be too weak, but I do think right now there is far to much of it. Leap is curious one, as it allows instant acceleration in the direction where ever you are looking. I think given its a two hive ability leap should stay, but the default air accelerate should be lowered in my opinion -not removed, just toned down a bit.

    Wait, seriously?! I didn't know that. I've always played skulks as if they were defined by physics. No wonder some skulks seem impossible to hit when they jump.
  • targetducktargetduck Join Date: 2013-01-19 Member: 180718Members
    Leap is a bit poorly named. Should really be skulk jetpack.

    I think its probably fine balance wise. Shooting skulks would be very easy if they had more realistic movement, they'd have to buff the crap out of wall jumps and add no speed loss on bunnyhop.
  • PaajtorPaajtor Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168634Members
    yes, they're awkward movements, but gamewise it makes sense, given their alien nature.
    Fades move weird too, like they bend time...Lerks turn on a dime, and can drop into nowhere like nothing.
    Marines counter it with their focussed way of fighting, a very different approach.

    That said, as an Alien, I question the Marine's laser guns XD
    The game's asymmetry works both ways.


  • -WildCat--WildCat- Cape Town, South Africa Join Date: 2008-07-19 Member: 64664Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    It's absolutely fine as it is.

    Playing Skulk is probably the area of the game where I'm strongest at the moment (relative to other players). Yet, I still feel that there's a fair amount of room to become even better. This is a good thing because it means there's a high skill ceiling.

    I don't want Skulk to be messed up by unnecessary nerfs. Reducing the air control would just reduce the depth of Skulk game play.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    Good scaffolding.
    The air acceleration causes inexperienced players to jitter around wildly, unable to focus on a target and attack it accurately. Good players can use the air acceleration to accomplish all sorts of things though.
  • RippsyRippsy Join Date: 2013-01-16 Member: 179921Members
    I do not feel it should be removed, it makes getting into vents as marines impossible if it is due to how crouch jump works in NS2(Badly!) but it should be toned down somewhat. Leap I'm totally fine with it changing direction it has a penalty cost associated with it which naturally limits its use. Air control on fades is fine because again - they have abilities to do so. But passive air mobility is to strong on skulks currently, way to strong.
  • CiroCiro Join Date: 2013-01-09 Member: 178392Members
    Rippsy wrote: »
    The cvar this relates to in the HL engine is called "air accelerate" and is defined as the vector control you have while your avatar is off the ground. It was the basis for strafe jumping in quake and hl.

    In NS2 currently you can actually jump off a platform as an alien, and do a 180 degree turn and land back on the same platform (without leap) this means you cannot predict alien trajectories because they can alter in mid flight.

    Marines can do it to, but they're slow, so no one cares. I'm just waiting for it to be exploited more in skirmishes with skulks.

    I would agree with toning it down, if skulks could leap off walls (back/side to wall plus jump, without the second hive ability).
  • RippsyRippsy Join Date: 2013-01-16 Member: 179921Members
    Ciro, idd; all entities have the same 'air accelerate' value, but because of how it works its virtually useless for marines, and massively helpful to Skulks. I do expect once a few players get even better with it (There's a few out there already who are literally terrifying as skulks) it'll get noticed more and more as a 'wtf, how do I even hit that skulk? he's like a magician!" and then maybe get some balance/modification to the amount, but until then its apparently not noticed right now by most people
  • creamcream Join Date: 2011-05-14 Member: 98671Members
    Rippsy wrote: »
    Ciro, idd; all entities have the same 'air accelerate' value, but because of how it works its virtually useless for marines, and massively helpful to Skulks. I do expect once a few players get even better with it (There's a few out there already who are literally terrifying as skulks) it'll get noticed more and more as a 'wtf, how do I even hit that skulk? he's like a magician!" and then maybe get some balance/modification to the amount, but until then its apparently not noticed right now by most people

    pretty much the same case for bunnyhop back in ns1, except instead of "wtf, how do I even hit that skulk? he's like a magician!", you get "wtf, they're exploiting/glitching/abusing game engine!".

    this is where the game is headed, to a time period years from now when only good players are left playing and dominating pubs everywhere they go. too bad this game was/is/will never be as strategically deep as its predecessor, aside from the performance fiasco that will probably never get fixed.

    negativity over 9000.
  • CiroCiro Join Date: 2013-01-09 Member: 178392Members
    cream wrote: »
    Rippsy wrote: »
    Ciro, idd; all entities have the same 'air accelerate' value, but because of how it works its virtually useless for marines, and massively helpful to Skulks. I do expect once a few players get even better with it (There's a few out there already who are literally terrifying as skulks) it'll get noticed more and more as a 'wtf, how do I even hit that skulk? he's like a magician!" and then maybe get some balance/modification to the amount, but until then its apparently not noticed right now by most people

    pretty much the same case for bunnyhop back in ns1, except instead of "wtf, how do I even hit that skulk? he's like a magician!", you get "wtf, they're exploiting/glitching/abusing game engine!".

    this is where the game is headed, to a time period years from now when only good players are left playing and dominating pubs everywhere they go. too bad this game was/is/will never be as strategically deep as its predecessor, aside from the performance fiasco that will probably never get fixed.

    negativity over 9000.

    Way too negative.

    The big issue with bunny hop, in NS1, was it was silent. A marine could move around the as fast or faster than walking and not make a sound. Definitely not intended or acceptable.
  • huhuhhuhuh Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33190Members
    Ciro wrote: »

    Way too negative.

    The big issue with bunny hop, in NS1, was it was silent. A marine could move around the as fast or faster than walking and not make a sound. Definitely not intended or acceptable.

    Not fully silent

    Also parasite
  • RippsyRippsy Join Date: 2013-01-16 Member: 179921Members
    Bunnyhopping, "I was there man" when it literally killed CS1.6 competitive play, is undeniably exploiting a mechanic in the game engine. The communities which allowed it became filled with people who refuse adapt to make the games skill ceiling intuitive and accessible to new players. Force a death on their games, I'm looking at you QW. I never played NS1; but since it was a HL1 engine game they had the same option that the CS1.6 crowd did - set sv_airaccelerate lower, which limits bunnyhopping or allow it and watch the game die the same as QW did. CS1.6 competitive scene did this (eventually) but by then so many casual players had left the game was essentially dead - CS:S also came out at 'just the wrong time' and the majority of players just jumped off the old engine to the new (even with its flaws)

    I sense the same thing happened in NS1 to NS2, despite the drastically different game play, the concept of the game is similar at least. What makes BH'ing especially dangerous in NS2 is that the only lifeform which can effectively use it, are skulks. In NS1 skulks and Marines could abuse it, in CS1.6 it was equal, in QW it's equal. So we have this drastic situation where one lifeform is getting a huge advantage, not speed, but movement control in fights.
  • huhuhhuhuh Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33190Members
    Rippsy wrote: »
    Bunnyhopping, "I was there man" when it literally killed CS1.6 competitive play, is undeniably exploiting a mechanic in the game engine.

    Bunny jump was removed in earlier versions of CS ... ?
    The communities which allowed it became filled with people who refuse adapt to make the games skill ceiling intuitive and accessible to new players. Force a death on their games, I'm looking at you QW. I never played NS1; but since it was a HL1 engine game they had the same option that the CS1.6 crowd did - set sv_airaccelerate lower, which limits bunnyhopping or allow it and watch the game die the same as QW did. CS1.6 competitive scene did this (eventually) but by then so many casual players had left the game was essentially dead

    Are you talking about NS1 essentially balanced around the inclusion of bunnyhop in the game ? When exactly did 1.6 die because of bh ?
    - CS:S also came out at 'just the wrong time' and the majority of players just jumped off the old engine to the new (even with its flaws)

    Which majority ? You mean the small half that switched while the other half remained playing 1.6 ?
    I sense the same thing happened in NS1 to NS2, despite the drastically different game play, the concept of the game is similar at least. What makes BH'ing especially dangerous in NS2 is that the only lifeform which can effectively use it, are skulks. In NS1 skulks and Marines could abuse it, in CS1.6 it was equal, in QW it's equal. So we have this drastic situation where one lifeform is getting a huge advantage, not speed, but movement control in fights.

    Every Marine/Alien but commander, lerks and jetpacks had a use for bunny hopping or equivalent
  • DethGauntDethGaunt Join Date: 2003-06-02 Member: 16938Members
    Rippsy wrote: »
    What makes BH'ing especially dangerous in NS2 is that the only lifeform which can effectively use it, are skulks. In NS1 skulks and Marines could abuse it, in CS1.6 it was equal, in QW it's equal. So we have this drastic situation where one lifeform is getting a huge advantage, not speed, but movement control in fights.

    Eh? Marines could not bhop (as of 2.0 I think). They could get a second jump without a speed penalty if jumping on a raised platform and this gave rise to the crouch jump style that top marines used for travel. It most certainly was not silent and definitely not the same as bhop. Wiggle walking was more prevalent for travelling as that is not exactly hard to learn.

    As huhuh said, every alien could make use of bhop aside from lerk. It gave aliens a higher skill ceiling to coincide with that of the marine's aim. If aliens do not have a skill based movement system then as aim improves, aliens can do nothing to match that increase in skill. @Tweadle wrote a great post on this quite a while back, its well worth searching for.
  • RippsyRippsy Join Date: 2013-01-16 Member: 179921Members
    edited February 2013
    huhuh wrote: »
    Rippsy wrote: »
    Bunnyhopping, "I was there man" when it literally killed CS1.6 competitive play, is undeniably exploiting a mechanic in the game engine.

    Bunny jump was removed in earlier versions of CS ... ?

    Bunnyhopping was removed in quite a lot of competitive rulesets by defining air accelerate to a lower value than default, but it was as people wanted and decided on individual servers. The majority of the public servers Jolt etc just left configs as default and when a good player came along BH'ing it cleared out the server in a few rounds as there was no way to fight it (I'm guilty of being that guy)
    The communities which allowed it became filled with people who refuse adapt to make the games skill ceiling intuitive and accessible to new players. Force a death on their games, I'm looking at you QW. I never played NS1; but since it was a HL1 engine game they had the same option that the CS1.6 crowd did - set sv_airaccelerate lower, which limits bunnyhopping or allow it and watch the game die the same as QW did. CS1.6 competitive scene did this (eventually) but by then so many casual players had left the game was essentially dead

    Are you talking about NS1 essentially balanced around the inclusion of bunnyhop in the game ? When exactly did 1.6 die because of bh ?

    No (NS1 balance), as I said, I never played it - but aliens having faster base movement speed is a big part of NS2, and if Marines could counter that by bunny hopping - I imagine it would seriously upset the balance
    - CS:S also came out at 'just the wrong time' and the majority of players just jumped off the old engine to the new (even with its flaws)

    Which majority ? You mean the small half that switched while the other half remained playing 1.6 ?

    Just inferring that when a sequel game comes out a hardcore minority always stay on and play and usually the more casual players move to the new version along with a chunk of competitive players, the same thing happened with CS1.6 and CS:S both had competitive scenes which existed at the same time but the game essentially died at this point due to no new players being introduced to CS1.6. It was merely the old guys remaining to play out whatever was left of it. If no new players are joining a community, it is slowly dying.

    Basically yes; but also that new players stopped appearing. Once CS:S was released it basically tore the community in half (I'd honestly say more like 60% stayed in CS1.6) but since no new players joined 1.6 and through attrition it just died. Hey I stayed with 1.6 I could never stand the movement and style of play that CS:S used, but I knew I was just holding out and wasn't really going anywhere new with it by that point.
    I sense the same thing happened in NS1 to NS2, despite the drastically different game play, the concept of the game is similar at least. What makes BH'ing especially dangerous in NS2 is that the only lifeform which can effectively use it, are skulks. In NS1 skulks and Marines could abuse it, in CS1.6 it was equal, in QW it's equal. So we have this drastic situation where one lifeform is getting a huge advantage, not speed, but movement control in fights.

    Every Marine/Alien but commander, lerks and jetpacks had a use for bunny hopping or equivalent

    This I disagree with, lerks don't need it as everytime they "flap their wings" they are allowed a trajectory change, jetpackers the same, press the jump key - allows trajectory change. Blink and shadowstep allow fades trajectory changes.

    Why should skulks get a passive trajectory change which is such a strong component in the use of their characters when everyone else has to pay for it? They get leap at 2 hives, that allows instant trajectory change and speed boost
  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    We shouldn't limit a mechanic that encourages flexibility and skill to use. When I see a good skulk walljump and fly around, it's a beautiful sight to behold. Right before getting plastered of course.
  • huhuhhuhuh Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33190Members
    edited February 2013
    I sense the same thing happened in NS1 to NS2, despite the drastically different game play, the concept of the game is similar at least. What makes BH'ing especially dangerous in NS2 is that the only lifeform which can effectively use it, are skulks. In NS1 skulks and Marines could abuse it, in CS1.6 it was equal, in QW it's equal. So we have this drastic situation where one lifeform is getting a huge advantage, not speed, but movement control in fights.

    Every Marine/Alien but commander, lerks and jetpacks had a use for bunny hopping or equivalent

    This I disagree with, lerks don't need it as everytime they "flap their wings" they are allowed a trajectory change, jetpackers the same, press the jump key - allows trajectory change. Blink and shadowstep allow fades trajectory changes.

    Why should skulks get a passive trajectory change which is such a strong component in the use of their characters when everyone else has to pay for it?

    Sorry my sentence was ill-written. What I meant was that in NS1, everyone but lerks/comms/jetpacks had a use for BH or similar mechanics. Your original post stated that only skulks and marines had a use for it.
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    Rippsy wrote: »
    In NS1 skulks and Marines could abuse it

    Bunnyhopping gorge is angered by his exclusion!
    Onos too.

  • RippsyRippsy Join Date: 2013-01-16 Member: 179921Members
    Strofix, what do you mean by "bunnyhopping" i've tried to do it as Onos and Gorge and not really achieved any speed increase.

    huhuh, I'm refering to NS2 at this point. I don't want to remove walljumping (valid tactic) but I feel that skulks in combat ability to alter trajectory is very harsh for marines to anticipate and deal with (read: can't)
  • |strofix||strofix| Join Date: 2012-11-01 Member: 165453Members
    Rippsy wrote: »
    Strofix, what do you mean by "bunnyhopping" i've tried to do it as Onos and Gorge and not really achieved any speed increase.

    I'm talking about NS1 gorge and onos. Backwards bhopping gorge in NS1 was faster than a speeding bullet.

  • SquishpokePOOPFACESquishpokePOOPFACE -21,248 posts (ignore below) Join Date: 2012-10-31 Member: 165262Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited February 2013
    HL1 bhop was insanely ridiculous in general. Check out this, for example:



    Probably my favorite 1v1 video of all time. Pure insanity. I like to show this to console players who haven't seen this level of gameplay before.
  • RippsyRippsy Join Date: 2013-01-16 Member: 179921Members
    edited February 2013
    Okay, we all agree BHing in HL1 engine was stupid - this isn't the HL1 engine, I brought it up purely to point out that while it was 'allowed' in that engine it will kill the game, the fact all characters could do it does "equalize it" somewhat. Can we get back to discussing should Skulks have this as a passive (engine enabled) ability that is a very high learning curve and unintuitive behaviour of jump mechanics.

    eg: a new marine would not expect a skulk to jump in a curve with out that skulk using 'an ability' - why should this be allowed?
  • huhuhhuhuh Join Date: 2005-01-07 Member: 33190Members
    Rippsy wrote: »
    Okay, we all agree BHing in HL1 engine was stupid

    Sorry, no.
    Can we get back to discussing should Skulks have this as a passive (engine enabled) ability that is a very high learning curve and unintuitive behaviour of jump mechanics.
    eg: a new marine would not expect a skulk to jump in a curve with out that skulk using 'an ability' - why should this be allowed?

    High learning curve ? You could teach it to beginners through a tutorial. The good practice of it would probably require a good amount of time though.
    And what's the issue with beginners discovering new things or getting owned by better players ??



  • RippsyRippsy Join Date: 2013-01-16 Member: 179921Members
    off topic: You honestly think BH'ing in HL1 engine wasn't stupid/insane/broke most games?

    on topic: Maybe high learning curve is a little steep - but it's extremely counter intuitive to how reality works aka you cannot alter your trajectory while in mid air.
  • XaoXao Join Date: 2012-12-12 Member: 174840Members
    Off topic: CS removed bhoping in 1.4, people were using specific scripts that bordered on hacks/trainers to bhop past 1.5, in NS1 marines could only bhop on elevation, not wherever they liked, I don't know why you keep leaving this specific detail out of all your posts. It was extremely useful in some areas of maps and mostly useless in others except jumping off a railing to dodge skulks in combat. I can't quite remember but I thought strafing or running along walls gave the slightest speed boost, or maybe that's just quake again.

    On topic: Wall jump and the air control/acceleration in NS2 seems like a horrible substitute for bhoping at the best of times, once a skulk makes contact with a wall they can go at least 3 different directions or jump and maintain speed, it's probably the most difficult thing to adjust to as a marine for aiming and a skulk for playing well. The tick rate, lag comp, interp 100ms and laggy/warping animations some people have in game does not help.
  • DethGauntDethGaunt Join Date: 2003-06-02 Member: 16938Members
    Xao wrote: »
    I can't quite remember but I thought strafing or running along walls gave the slightest speed boost, or maybe that's just quake again.

    Kinda offtopic, but yes it did. Gave slightly more speed than wiggle walking if I remember correctly.
  • SkackySkacky Join Date: 2005-06-05 Member: 53189Members
    edited February 2013
    Still offtopic: BHop was a perfectly valid aspect of the game and it added more depth to NS1. You could gain a significant amount of time BHopping around as a Marine (on elevation as @Xao said) rather than having to take a detour. I'm thinking of Sub Sector's railings in particular.

    I think the Skulk air control is fine in NS2. I often use it to my advantage to evade bullets and flank quickly. Being unpredictable when you jump is much better than jumping straight against a Marine, especially against one who can track well.
  • RippsyRippsy Join Date: 2013-01-16 Member: 179921Members
    Xao
    Offtopic: hate to quibble but BH was never removed form the HL engine, they just allowed you access to the cvar to remove it - some servers left it on, others removed it. The elevation bhop is interesting in NS1, but a quirk more than anything.

    On topic: I've no problem with a skulk making contact with a wall and being able to either wall jump, or change direction - thats fine, they are touching an item of the map they are able to walk up walls, it makes perfect sense. Being able to change (significantly) direction in mid air is just so counter-intuitive is borders on insane in my view.
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