Yup Rifle is great as it is. Lets remember you aren't supposed to be able to beat a Skulk that has the jump on you. Just as a skulk shouldn't kill you when you have range on it. Its called balance.
<!--quoteo(post=2057867:date=Jan 8 2013, 08:56 AM:name=kelevra386)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kelevra386 @ Jan 8 2013, 08:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057867"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yup Rifle is great as it is. Lets remember you aren't supposed to be able to beat a Skulk that has the jump on you. Just as a skulk shouldn't kill you when you have range on it. Its called balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, basically you just said what I have been saying...
There are 1000 games with "realistic" weapon handling("realistic" meaning some random heavy recoil and all this) I for my part played and enjoyed many HL Mods with these weapons besides NS1 (CS, DoD, FLF, Firearms etc.) as well as my share of other shooters like the Battlefield Series. The idea to implement this weapon system to NS2, however, I find highly disturbing and I honestly think that people who want this got the very fundamental setup of this game wrong.
There really is not one single good reason for recoil in NS2. The only remotely acceptable argument in favor of recoil is that most other shooters have recoil. (This is a stupid reason for recoil which shows how wrong it would be to implement it in NS)
The reason for this idea being so wrong is that the skillset required for NS is fundamentally different from the one required for most shooters like CS or CoD. The shooter part of NS is more oriented towards a game like Quake 3 which has a skillset mostly based on aim and movement including the resulting faster pace of fights.
The beautiful thing about games like Quake or NS where there is no recoil and no hitzones is that there is no lucky headshot or no unlucky AK47 recoil. If you are killed the marine had good aim and if not he had not.
<!--quoteo(post=2057871:date=Jan 8 2013, 09:00 AM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Jan 8 2013, 09:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057871"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are 1000 games with "realistic" weapon handling("realistic" meaning some random heavy recoil and all this) I for my part played and enjoyed many HL Mods with these weapons besides NS1 (CS, DoD, FLF, Firearms etc.) as well as my share of other shooters like the Battlefield Series. The idea to implement this weapon system to NS2, however, I find highly disturbing and I honestly think that people who want this got the very fundamental setup of this game wrong.
There really is not one single good reason for recoil in NS2. The only remotely acceptable argument in favor of recoil is that most other shooters have recoil. (This is a stupid reason for recoil which shows how wrong it would be to implement it in NS)
The reason for this idea being so wrong is that the skillset required for NS is fundamentally different from the one required for most shooters like CS or CoD. The shooter part of NS is more oriented towards a game like Quake 3 which has a skillset mostly based on aim and movement including the resulting faster pace of fights.
The beautiful thing about games like Quake or NS where there is no recoil and no hitzones is that there is no lucky headshot or no unlucky AK47 recoil. If you are killed the marine had good aim and if not he had not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I agree head shots and separating hit boxes would not be a good thing. It's more the fact that the base gun used is still used 30 minutes later... The basic benefit of the team movement is always implied, but not directed - meaning nothing is saying you HAVE to stick with your team members, but it's a great idea if you want to actually accomplish anything... The marines can be stale, they never really change - there is little progression.. I would honestly really enjoy a medic role more then the recoil, but I think the recoil (less dramatic then "realistic" weapon handling, it is still Ns) would have a place on certain weapons..
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited January 2013
<!--quoteo(post=2057876:date=Jan 8 2013, 02:21 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Jan 8 2013, 02:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057876"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->. The basic benefit of the team movement is always implied, but not directed - meaning nothing is saying you HAVE to stick with your team members, but it's a great idea if you want to actually accomplish anything...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is pretty much implied by actually playing the game and drawing conclusions. Finding things out by playing the game, the best way to teach a player. You cannot teach situational awareness in tooltips, it is only possible to learn by playing. Because every time you go out on your own, especially as a newbie, you're going to get your kneecaps bitten off. That in itself should tell anyone, you need to stick together and cover each other as marines.
The thing which isn't implied is what I always see rookie marines doing. Sticking together as a big meat ball, instead of staggering your advancements, that's exactly what most new players are doing wrong. They're taking this "stick together" a bit too literal and presenting the aliens a very cozy close quarter marine meatball, which also functions as a meat shield for the aliens :P
<!--quoteo(post=2057900:date=Jan 8 2013, 10:20 AM:name=Kouji_San)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kouji_San @ Jan 8 2013, 10:20 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057900"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The thing which isn't implied is what I always see rookie marines doing. Sticking together as a big meat ball, instead of staggering your advancements, that's exactly what most new players are doing wrong. They're taking this "stick together" a bit too literal and presenting the aliens a very cozy close quarter marine meatball, which also functions as a meat shield for the aliens :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I lol`ed.
Yeah, I would think some of that would be fixed by adding some roles , the HW guy, the Medic etc.. although at the current everyone always seems to want to end up in the front, even the dang guy with the GL...
Marines should be able to pick up sentries and run around with them as they shoot.
For 30 tres the commander can research sentry hats.
But seriously. NS2 just isn't a tactical shooter; these sort of ideas don't really fit. It's nice you're throwing out ideas and contributing discussions, but what you're suggesting would change the core gameplay of NS2.
I love tactical shooters, by the way. But when I want one, I go play Red Orchestra 2. I don't come to NS2 for that, so I want it to stay distinct.
I'm actually a little unhappy that there isn't ADS in the game. It would make aiming much easier by lowering your mouse input and giving you some actual sights to use to pick a target at the cost of situational awareness. Nothing about the gun would need to change either, just remove the near useless butt-stroke from the LMG and add an ADS animation while lowering the mouse input a bit.
On the subject of class-based play, I don't see why this can't be a thing without getting too far from from the base design of the game. Just a thought here off the top of my head :
First, add the LMG to the armory for a 3 P-res cost and remove LMG's being dropped at the armory when someone buys a new weapon. 1. Basic assault marine : Just the standard marine we have now, no changes and you spawn as this class by default. 2. Engineer kit (purchase at armory for 3 res) : Turn in your LMG for a welder. Bind the welder to the LMG weapon slot... if the engi picks up any weapon, welder disappears. 3. Heavy Assault (purchase at armory for 3 res) : Gives +1 weapon tech upgrade and removes all weapons except the LMG (no hatchet, no pistol). Pick up any weapon and lose the tech upgrade 4. Recon (purchase at armory for 3 res) : Gives +1 armor tech upgrade and removes the LMG. Pick up any weapon and lose the tech upgrade. default sprint is already boosted by having no primary weapon, so the recon is going to be fast and durable but lightly armed.
Thats just off the top of my head... and very little about the basic game would need to be modified to accommodate it. I don't think anything would be particularly unbalanced but it would let players choose a more defined role and signal to the commander what kind of play style they can expect from certain players. Someone is camping topographical and won't respond to waypoints or requests to move out... look, he's an engineer and he's planning on building up a mini-base there, stop expecting offensive play out of him and drop some sentries and such. Got a rambo that keeps running off at top speed to the far corners of the map, he's a recon and will benefit greatly from faster upgrades and early jetpacks. That sort of thing. A heavy assault player might be your target of choice for a nano-shield and ammo drops. Players would know instinctively to cover the engineer while he builds things rather than have everyone building and no-one covering.
Anyway, I'm not saying the above would be a great system... its very generic, its just intended to point out that class based play doesn't have to be hard-counter style, just tweak the game to allow players to better define their roles according to the play style they are inclined to use and have the class system telegraph that information to their team in a way that allows for no-verbal coordination in the same way that looking at some guy toting around a GL right now tells you a great deal about what role they will play in any upcoming fights.
Just a thought, the game isn't likely to change in so drastic a fashion until there's some sort of major content patch/release, and we'd have heard if there was some thought going into this sort of thing. It's probably not going to happen, but I do think it's something that can be considered without automatically rejecting it as some massive upset to the core game design.
On the topic of weapons check out <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=126964" target="_blank">this mod</a> for the grenade launcher.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm actually a little unhappy that there isn't ADS in the game. add an ADS animation while lowering the mouse input a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you need that to: a) Shoot skulk jumping around you b) Shoot warping fade c) Shoot celerity lerk bypassing you at the speed of light d) Or are you too afraid to miss onos?
Also, I find the rest of your post ridiculous. I just lol'ed at it.
<!--quoteo(post=2057383:date=Jan 7 2013, 10:16 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Jan 7 2013, 10:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2057383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A) Accuracy cone rather then pin-point (forced by recoil?) 1. Where you aim should never be where you hit 100% of the time with any weapon...
B) Accuracy loss on movement 2. You can't run and gun and expect to maintain 100% target accuracy..
C) Heavy machine-gun like a SAW was the upgrade 3. You should loose the ability to bunny hop across the battle with heavier weapons spraying and praying..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree on all counts. I love that in NS2, where I point cursor = where bullets go. I freakin hate games that have random spread.
I love being able to jump away from ankle biting skulks. I like when marines do that to me when I am skulk too, makes it more interesting than the scrubs that just crouch in a corner as if crouching makes them harder to bite lol.
You can't actually bunny hop in the true sense of the term in this game, you lose stamina as marine as it is. What you would do is cause marines to be less mobile than they already are, which I doubt would help them win more.
Whatever happened to bringing a wider firing cone like the NS1 LMG?
With all the erratic and unpredictable Skulk jumping animations, a wider firing cone would aid the Marine in Mid-Close Quarters combat.
With a wider firing cone (introducing reduced efficiency for long-distance shooting) for the LMG, this would also aid the Kharaa, as it allows them close the distance.
To me, this seems like one of those situations where the basics of NS1 actually has potential to work.
<!--quoteo(post=2058125:date=Jan 8 2013, 07:45 PM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Jan 8 2013, 07:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whatever happened to bringing a wider firing cone like the NS1 LMG?
With all the erratic and unpredictable Skulk jumping animations, a wider firing cone would aid the Marine in Mid-Close Quarters combat.
With a wider firing cone (introducing reduced efficiency for long-distance shooting) for the LMG, this would also aid the Kharaa, as it allows them close the distance.
To me, this seems like one of those situations where the basics of NS1 actually has potential to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was actually something I really enjoyed in NS2, because it increased the skill cap for marines, which were previously mostly the "Easy team" for a few reasons.
Is it more inaccessible for new players? Yes, it is, and that's a shame. But a large part of why I enjoy NS2 (and really, most of my games) is because it's challenging to play and has a large skill cap. While at first this may sound like an elitist mentality, please consider that making every game sufficiently accessible would homogenize the entire industry.
After all, I'm all in favor of adding things like better tutorials to help out new players without having to change the game itself. That's a good thing; I don't want new players to be clueless and easy to fight, because that belittles the challenge I came here for in the first place.
Why can't we hardcore fans have our own games, anyway? Seems like anytime a person expresses their desire for a game to have challenge, they're immediately branded as pretentious for it. Yes, there's some elitism lurking about the forums, but this is getting out of hand.
<!--quoteo(post=2058146:date=Jan 8 2013, 09:52 PM:name=NikolaiLev)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NikolaiLev @ Jan 8 2013, 09:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058146"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This was actually something I really enjoyed in NS2, because it increased the skill cap for marines, which were previously mostly the "Easy team" for a few reasons.
Is it more inaccessible for new players? Yes, it is, and that's a shame. But a large part of why I enjoy NS2 (and really, most of my games) is because it's challenging to play and has a large skill cap. While at first this may sound like an elitist mentality, please consider that making every game sufficiently accessible would homogenize the entire industry.
After all, I'm all in favor of adding things like better tutorials to help out new players without having to change the game itself. That's a good thing; I don't want new players to be clueless and easy to fight, because that belittles the challenge I came here for in the first place.
Why can't we hardcore fans have our own games, anyway? Seems like anytime a person expresses their desire for a game to have challenge, they're immediately branded as pretentious for it. Yes, there's some elitism lurking about the forums, but this is getting out of hand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It goes back to the risk-vs-reward point I made earlier about how the current LMG could remain pinpoint accurate (high-risk, high-reward) while a more typical SAW-like weapon could be added as an alternate weapon, which sprays more inaccurately (theoretically being easier to do <i><b>some</b></i> damage against a skulk than the LMG, but at high skill levels you would nearly always opt for LMG instead, except in situations where the SAW's other advantage is actually desirable (as I mentioned, it might be better sustained DPS against buildings than the LMG.))
Both playstyles can co-exist in the game to a certain degree.
<!--quoteo(post=2058152:date=Jan 8 2013, 06:58 PM:name=Axehilt)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Axehilt @ Jan 8 2013, 06:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It goes back to the risk-vs-reward point I made earlier about how the current LMG could remain pinpoint accurate (high-risk, high-reward) while a more typical SAW-like weapon could be added as an alternate weapon, which sprays more inaccurately (theoretically being easier to do <i><b>some</b></i> damage against a skulk than the LMG, but at high skill levels you would nearly always opt for LMG instead, except in situations where the SAW's other advantage is actually desirable (as I mentioned, it might be better sustained DPS against buildings than the LMG.))
Both playstyles can co-exist in the game to a certain degree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's funny. I remember 3 or 4 years ago a long forums post (on the original NS1 forums) where people were suggesting the opposite. The LMG was a spray gun and people wanted a slower firing lmg or battle rifle so they wouldn't have to switch to the pistol all the time. Although, despite being quite a long thread UWE never did act on it. As for your suggestion, I wouldn't mind it although the question would be is implementing a more inaccurate but slightly more ammo weapon be worth the time for UWE? We don't have the metrics or information to know if the laser pointer LMG is the issue or if putting more manpower into something else like hit-reg fixes would help newbies better.
<!--quoteo(post=2058125:date=Jan 8 2013, 05:45 PM:name=Zomb3h)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zomb3h @ Jan 8 2013, 05:45 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058125"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Whatever happened to bringing a wider firing cone like the NS1 LMG?
With all the erratic and unpredictable Skulk jumping animations, a wider firing cone would aid the Marine in Mid-Close Quarters combat.
With a wider firing cone (introducing reduced efficiency for long-distance shooting) for the LMG, this would also aid the Kharaa, as it allows them close the distance.
To me, this seems like one of those situations where the basics of NS1 actually has potential to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wasn't it a 4 degree cone in NS1? During alpha/beta I know they tried 4 degrees and I want to say they tried 2 degrees too, then they settled on 3. I find nothing wrong with it.
I guess i could be fine with adding an ADS AS LONG AS it does not affect hip fire accuracy at all. That way the game wont change for most people, but those who want to slow their movement speed and collapse their peripheral vision for no reason at all can be happy. Hell I would even unbind it.
I think the Idead of classes is not suitable for NS2, after all you can always play a different "class" by buying the corresponding weapon... So if you wanna play engineer you simply buy yourself a welder and boom - you are an engineer now.
For the bigger sprad weapon, I also do not see any valid reason to implement this. I mean I started playing NS2 min-late 2012 after a very long break from NS1(~6 yrs) and after playing lots of BF3 which has huge amounts of recoil and weapon spread. At first I hit completely nothing the the NS2 lmg. It even was kind of hard to hit an onos because I would instinctively compensate for some non existant recoil. So I basically had 2 options: either go to the forums and whine about the lmg or to just stfu and play some more. I did the latter and big ######ing surprise: I learned to handle the lmg. And I like it and think it really fit into the whole concept of the game.
I really dont get why people want every game to be the same "theres a gun ... It definitely need spread and recoil". I mean there are games where the overall fighting skill is determined mainly by how good you can compensate your favourite weapons's recoil. In BF3 there are 1000 guns with the only difference being in spread/recoil and dps as a balancing factor. So if you like this kind of gunplay just play BF3 because in this regard it is certainly 10000 times better than NS2 will ever be even if recoil is implemented.
In NS2 however your fighting skill is already determined mainly by movement and very precise aiming. All aspects of "realistic" gun behavior directly contradict these factors as guns would get less precise while moving and precise aiming would be less important because of the spread.
So in the end this whole thing would mean to change key aspects of the marine gameplay as well as overall pace of people feeling NS2 is not enough like CoD, CS or BF3 in terms of gun gameplay.
Also a "small" recoil would drastically lower both skill floor and ceiling for no other reason as to buff noob marines. I think there would be better ways to do so.
<!--quoteo(post=2058304:date=Jan 9 2013, 12:34 PM:name=gnoarch)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gnoarch @ Jan 9 2013, 12:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058304"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the Idead of classes is not suitable for NS2, after all you can always play a different "class" by buying the corresponding weapon... So if you wanna play engineer you simply buy yourself a welder and boom - you are an engineer now.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The idea is to give players a better way to telegraph their play-style without removing the existing format. Without changing a thing, you have a system now where no-one can be an engineer unless the commander buys welders, and then there is no way to know who has a welder unless you see them use it or they announce it. If there was a little wrench next to their name when they had a welder, at least people would know. It doesn't have to be a formal class change from "grunt" to "engineer" with any attendant changes in capability, but as of now the "everyone is potentially everything at any time" adds to the fog of war on the marine side without adding any incentives for anyone to do something targeted and useful.
I often go do the "recon" job in games because in almost every game I've played no-one does it. Aliens naturally seek out the marine base at the start of the match, marines will stand around waiting to build something even when the com has no intention of giving them something to do, and lots of time is wasted wondering who's going to stay and who needs to go kill stuff. Announcing intent isn't always easy to do either... one minute I'm agressively hunting alien upgrades in their hive, another I'm frantically repairing damaged bases. Again, if I was out doing my thing and could see from the HUD that we have 3 welders on the team, I could skip the welder duty and just keep doing my work and expect the people with welders to pick up the slack at home.
There's no reason not to implement a "class" system at its very basic level... we can already see what primary weapons people are carrying, associating a "class" with equipment carried isn't going to fundamentally alter the structure of the game but it might help new players understand what they are properly equipped for based on the load-out they've chosen and to communicate that information to the rest of the team.
With regard to the ADS question, since no one objects to it being in the game, why not add it? I would personally use it for covering fire on forward marines and picking off lazy aliens... I find the reduced "noise" and lower mouse sensitivity that it traditionally imparts would help focus on distant targets better.
Wanting ADS doesn't imply any other change to the guns characteristics... hip fire and cone would be unchanged regardless.
As for adding recoil, there's no reason to do it unless you are going to buff base bullet damage, and that would require a major re-balance and reward no-recoil scripts/macros which would crop up instantly while not adding much to the game. No recoil needed for this game IMO.
I guess my intent on adding recoil was to drag out early encounters a bit more - let more "battle time" take place and make encounters a little more challenging. As it sits, it basically falls into the rut of pinpoint lmg sniping, to bunny hop and shoot at my feat...
<!--quoteo(post=2058410:date=Jan 9 2013, 04:54 PM:name=ma$$a$$ter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ma$$a$$ter @ Jan 9 2013, 04:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2058410"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I guess my intent on adding recoil was to drag out early encounters a bit more - let more "battle time" take place and make encounters a little more challenging. As it sits, it basically falls into the rut of pinpoint lmg sniping, to bunny hop and shoot at my feat...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Other than creating a situation where marine miss more shots and consequently lose more early engagements, I'm not tracking how this would play out. The way I see it, if you nerf the LMG at all, you're inviting skulk-rushing in every match every time... not to mention what a stealth-buff this would be for cammo builds for aliens unless marines got really good at controlling the recoil (which brings you back to square 1)
Comments
Yeah, basically you just said what I have been saying...
The idea to implement this weapon system to NS2, however, I find highly disturbing and I honestly think that people who want this got the very fundamental setup of this game wrong.
There really is not one single good reason for recoil in NS2.
The only remotely acceptable argument in favor of recoil is that most other shooters have recoil. (This is a stupid reason for recoil which shows how wrong it would be to implement it in NS)
The reason for this idea being so wrong is that the skillset required for NS is fundamentally different from the one required for most shooters like CS or CoD. The shooter part of NS is more oriented towards a game like Quake 3 which has a skillset mostly based on aim and movement including the resulting faster pace of fights.
The beautiful thing about games like Quake or NS where there is no recoil and no hitzones is that there is no lucky headshot or no unlucky AK47 recoil. If you are killed the marine had good aim and if not he had not.
The idea to implement this weapon system to NS2, however, I find highly disturbing and I honestly think that people who want this got the very fundamental setup of this game wrong.
There really is not one single good reason for recoil in NS2.
The only remotely acceptable argument in favor of recoil is that most other shooters have recoil. (This is a stupid reason for recoil which shows how wrong it would be to implement it in NS)
The reason for this idea being so wrong is that the skillset required for NS is fundamentally different from the one required for most shooters like CS or CoD. The shooter part of NS is more oriented towards a game like Quake 3 which has a skillset mostly based on aim and movement including the resulting faster pace of fights.
The beautiful thing about games like Quake or NS where there is no recoil and no hitzones is that there is no lucky headshot or no unlucky AK47 recoil. If you are killed the marine had good aim and if not he had not.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I agree head shots and separating hit boxes would not be a good thing. It's more the fact that the base gun used is still used 30 minutes later... The basic benefit of the team movement is always implied, but not directed - meaning nothing is saying you HAVE to stick with your team members, but it's a great idea if you want to actually accomplish anything... The marines can be stale, they never really change - there is little progression.. I would honestly really enjoy a medic role more then the recoil, but I think the recoil (less dramatic then "realistic" weapon handling, it is still Ns) would have a place on certain weapons..
This is pretty much implied by actually playing the game and drawing conclusions. Finding things out by playing the game, the best way to teach a player. You cannot teach situational awareness in tooltips, it is only possible to learn by playing. Because every time you go out on your own, especially as a newbie, you're going to get your kneecaps bitten off. That in itself should tell anyone, you need to stick together and cover each other as marines.
The thing which isn't implied is what I always see rookie marines doing. Sticking together as a big meat ball, instead of staggering your advancements, that's exactly what most new players are doing wrong. They're taking this "stick together" a bit too literal and presenting the aliens a very cozy close quarter marine meatball, which also functions as a meat shield for the aliens :P
I lol`ed.
Yeah, I would think some of that would be fixed by adding some roles , the HW guy, the Medic etc.. although at the current everyone always seems to want to end up in the front, even the dang guy with the GL...
<b>SENTRIES!</b>
<b>SENTRIES!</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marines should be able to pick up sentries and run around with them as they shoot.
For 30 tres the commander can research sentry hats.
But seriously. NS2 just isn't a tactical shooter; these sort of ideas don't really fit. It's nice you're throwing out ideas and contributing discussions, but what you're suggesting would change the core gameplay of NS2.
I love tactical shooters, by the way. But when I want one, I go play Red Orchestra 2. I don't come to NS2 for that, so I want it to stay distinct.
I don't want skulk to be any harder to shoot.
<!--c1--><div class='codetop'>CODE</div><div class='codemain'><!--ec1-->local kSpread = ClipWeapon.kCone3Degrees<!--c2--></div><!--ec2-->
On the subject of class-based play, I don't see why this can't be a thing without getting too far from from the base design of the game. Just a thought here off the top of my head :
First, add the LMG to the armory for a 3 P-res cost and remove LMG's being dropped at the armory when someone buys a new weapon.
1. Basic assault marine : Just the standard marine we have now, no changes and you spawn as this class by default.
2. Engineer kit (purchase at armory for 3 res) : Turn in your LMG for a welder. Bind the welder to the LMG weapon slot... if the engi picks up any weapon, welder disappears.
3. Heavy Assault (purchase at armory for 3 res) : Gives +1 weapon tech upgrade and removes all weapons except the LMG (no hatchet, no pistol). Pick up any weapon and lose the tech upgrade
4. Recon (purchase at armory for 3 res) : Gives +1 armor tech upgrade and removes the LMG. Pick up any weapon and lose the tech upgrade. default sprint is already boosted by having no primary weapon, so the recon is going to be fast and durable but lightly armed.
Thats just off the top of my head... and very little about the basic game would need to be modified to accommodate it. I don't think anything would be particularly unbalanced but it would let players choose a more defined role and signal to the commander what kind of play style they can expect from certain players. Someone is camping topographical and won't respond to waypoints or requests to move out... look, he's an engineer and he's planning on building up a mini-base there, stop expecting offensive play out of him and drop some sentries and such. Got a rambo that keeps running off at top speed to the far corners of the map, he's a recon and will benefit greatly from faster upgrades and early jetpacks. That sort of thing. A heavy assault player might be your target of choice for a nano-shield and ammo drops. Players would know instinctively to cover the engineer while he builds things rather than have everyone building and no-one covering.
Anyway, I'm not saying the above would be a great system... its very generic, its just intended to point out that class based play doesn't have to be hard-counter style, just tweak the game to allow players to better define their roles according to the play style they are inclined to use and have the class system telegraph that information to their team in a way that allows for no-verbal coordination in the same way that looking at some guy toting around a GL right now tells you a great deal about what role they will play in any upcoming fights.
Just a thought, the game isn't likely to change in so drastic a fashion until there's some sort of major content patch/release, and we'd have heard if there was some thought going into this sort of thing. It's probably not going to happen, but I do think it's something that can be considered without automatically rejecting it as some massive upset to the core game design.
add an ADS animation while lowering the mouse input a bit.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Do you need that to:
a) Shoot skulk jumping around you
b) Shoot warping fade
c) Shoot celerity lerk bypassing you at the speed of light
d) Or are you too afraid to miss onos?
Also, I find the rest of your post ridiculous. I just lol'ed at it.
1. Where you aim should never be where you hit 100% of the time with any weapon...
B) Accuracy loss on movement
2. You can't run and gun and expect to maintain 100% target accuracy..
C) Heavy machine-gun like a SAW was the upgrade
3. You should loose the ability to bunny hop across the battle with heavier weapons spraying and praying..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I disagree on all counts. I love that in NS2, where I point cursor = where bullets go. I freakin hate games that have random spread.
I love being able to jump away from ankle biting skulks. I like when marines do that to me when I am skulk too, makes it more interesting than the scrubs that just crouch in a corner as if crouching makes them harder to bite lol.
You can't actually bunny hop in the true sense of the term in this game, you lose stamina as marine as it is. What you would do is cause marines to be less mobile than they already are, which I doubt would help them win more.
With all the erratic and unpredictable Skulk jumping animations, a wider firing cone would aid the Marine in Mid-Close Quarters combat.
With a wider firing cone (introducing reduced efficiency for long-distance shooting) for the LMG, this would also aid the Kharaa, as it allows them close the distance.
To me, this seems like one of those situations where the basics of NS1 actually has potential to work.
With all the erratic and unpredictable Skulk jumping animations, a wider firing cone would aid the Marine in Mid-Close Quarters combat.
With a wider firing cone (introducing reduced efficiency for long-distance shooting) for the LMG, this would also aid the Kharaa, as it allows them close the distance.
To me, this seems like one of those situations where the basics of NS1 actually has potential to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was actually something I really enjoyed in NS2, because it increased the skill cap for marines, which were previously mostly the "Easy team" for a few reasons.
Is it more inaccessible for new players? Yes, it is, and that's a shame. But a large part of why I enjoy NS2 (and really, most of my games) is because it's challenging to play and has a large skill cap. While at first this may sound like an elitist mentality, please consider that making every game sufficiently accessible would homogenize the entire industry.
After all, I'm all in favor of adding things like better tutorials to help out new players without having to change the game itself. That's a good thing; I don't want new players to be clueless and easy to fight, because that belittles the challenge I came here for in the first place.
Why can't we hardcore fans have our own games, anyway? Seems like anytime a person expresses their desire for a game to have challenge, they're immediately branded as pretentious for it. Yes, there's some elitism lurking about the forums, but this is getting out of hand.
Is it more inaccessible for new players? Yes, it is, and that's a shame. But a large part of why I enjoy NS2 (and really, most of my games) is because it's challenging to play and has a large skill cap. While at first this may sound like an elitist mentality, please consider that making every game sufficiently accessible would homogenize the entire industry.
After all, I'm all in favor of adding things like better tutorials to help out new players without having to change the game itself. That's a good thing; I don't want new players to be clueless and easy to fight, because that belittles the challenge I came here for in the first place.
Why can't we hardcore fans have our own games, anyway? Seems like anytime a person expresses their desire for a game to have challenge, they're immediately branded as pretentious for it. Yes, there's some elitism lurking about the forums, but this is getting out of hand.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It goes back to the risk-vs-reward point I made earlier about how the current LMG could remain pinpoint accurate (high-risk, high-reward) while a more typical SAW-like weapon could be added as an alternate weapon, which sprays more inaccurately (theoretically being easier to do <i><b>some</b></i> damage against a skulk than the LMG, but at high skill levels you would nearly always opt for LMG instead, except in situations where the SAW's other advantage is actually desirable (as I mentioned, it might be better sustained DPS against buildings than the LMG.))
Both playstyles can co-exist in the game to a certain degree.
Both playstyles can co-exist in the game to a certain degree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's funny. I remember 3 or 4 years ago a long forums post (on the original NS1 forums) where people were suggesting the opposite. The LMG was a spray gun and people wanted a slower firing lmg or battle rifle so they wouldn't have to switch to the pistol all the time. Although, despite being quite a long thread UWE never did act on it. As for your suggestion, I wouldn't mind it although the question would be is implementing a more inaccurate but slightly more ammo weapon be worth the time for UWE? We don't have the metrics or information to know if the laser pointer LMG is the issue or if putting more manpower into something else like hit-reg fixes would help newbies better.
With all the erratic and unpredictable Skulk jumping animations, a wider firing cone would aid the Marine in Mid-Close Quarters combat.
With a wider firing cone (introducing reduced efficiency for long-distance shooting) for the LMG, this would also aid the Kharaa, as it allows them close the distance.
To me, this seems like one of those situations where the basics of NS1 actually has potential to work.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wasn't it a 4 degree cone in NS1? During alpha/beta I know they tried 4 degrees and I want to say they tried 2 degrees too, then they settled on 3. I find nothing wrong with it.
I guess i could be fine with adding an ADS AS LONG AS it does not affect hip fire accuracy at all. That way the game wont change for most people, but those who want to slow their movement speed and collapse their peripheral vision for no reason at all can be happy. Hell I would even unbind it.
For the bigger sprad weapon, I also do not see any valid reason to implement this. I mean I started playing NS2 min-late 2012 after a very long break from NS1(~6 yrs) and after playing lots of BF3 which has huge amounts of recoil and weapon spread. At first I hit completely nothing the the NS2 lmg. It even was kind of hard to hit an onos because I would instinctively compensate for some non existant recoil.
So I basically had 2 options: either go to the forums and whine about the lmg or to just stfu and play some more.
I did the latter and big ######ing surprise: I learned to handle the lmg. And I like it and think it really fit into the whole concept of the game.
I really dont get why people want every game to be the same "theres a gun ... It definitely need spread and recoil".
I mean there are games where the overall fighting skill is determined mainly by how good you can compensate your favourite weapons's recoil.
In BF3 there are 1000 guns with the only difference being in spread/recoil and dps as a balancing factor. So if you like this kind of gunplay just play BF3 because in this regard it is certainly 10000 times better than NS2 will ever be even if recoil is implemented.
In NS2 however your fighting skill is already determined mainly by movement and very precise aiming. All aspects of "realistic" gun behavior directly contradict these factors as guns would get less precise while moving and precise aiming would be less important because of the spread.
So in the end this whole thing would mean to change key aspects of the marine gameplay as well as overall pace of people feeling NS2 is not enough like CoD, CS or BF3 in terms of gun gameplay.
Also a "small" recoil would drastically lower both skill floor and ceiling for no other reason as to buff noob marines. I think there would be better ways to do so.
The idea is to give players a better way to telegraph their play-style without removing the existing format. Without changing a thing, you have a system now where no-one can be an engineer unless the commander buys welders, and then there is no way to know who has a welder unless you see them use it or they announce it. If there was a little wrench next to their name when they had a welder, at least people would know. It doesn't have to be a formal class change from "grunt" to "engineer" with any attendant changes in capability, but as of now the "everyone is potentially everything at any time" adds to the fog of war on the marine side without adding any incentives for anyone to do something targeted and useful.
I often go do the "recon" job in games because in almost every game I've played no-one does it. Aliens naturally seek out the marine base at the start of the match, marines will stand around waiting to build something even when the com has no intention of giving them something to do, and lots of time is wasted wondering who's going to stay and who needs to go kill stuff. Announcing intent isn't always easy to do either... one minute I'm agressively hunting alien upgrades in their hive, another I'm frantically repairing damaged bases. Again, if I was out doing my thing and could see from the HUD that we have 3 welders on the team, I could skip the welder duty and just keep doing my work and expect the people with welders to pick up the slack at home.
There's no reason not to implement a "class" system at its very basic level... we can already see what primary weapons people are carrying, associating a "class" with equipment carried isn't going to fundamentally alter the structure of the game but it might help new players understand what they are properly equipped for based on the load-out they've chosen and to communicate that information to the rest of the team.
With regard to the ADS question, since no one objects to it being in the game, why not add it? I would personally use it for covering fire on forward marines and picking off lazy aliens... I find the reduced "noise" and lower mouse sensitivity that it traditionally imparts would help focus on distant targets better.
Wanting ADS doesn't imply any other change to the guns characteristics... hip fire and cone would be unchanged regardless.
As for adding recoil, there's no reason to do it unless you are going to buff base bullet damage, and that would require a major re-balance and reward no-recoil scripts/macros which would crop up instantly while not adding much to the game. No recoil needed for this game IMO.
Other than creating a situation where marine miss more shots and consequently lose more early engagements, I'm not tracking how this would play out. The way I see it, if you nerf the LMG at all, you're inviting skulk-rushing in every match every time... not to mention what a stealth-buff this would be for cammo builds for aliens unless marines got really good at controlling the recoil (which brings you back to square 1)