Natural Selection 2 News Update - Build 230 is now live on Steam

HughHugh CameramanSan Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
Please post comments on the topic Natural Selection 2 News Update - Build 230 is now life on Steam here
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  • halcoberry_houndhalcoberry_hound Join Date: 2003-07-20 Member: 18309Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    I like the changes you have listed, especially the 3 hive onos.

    keep up the good work!

    PS i am an Aussie and love the Naughty comment :P
  • oldassgamersoldassgamers Join Date: 2011-02-02 Member: 80033Members, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2012
    I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I have this bad feeling about uwe makes balance by looking through public statistic. UWE usually mentioned from time to time about their win/loss ration statistic on their Q&A. Static doesn't mean anything for public games. It can be good to know who's winning and losing but it can't be the cause of a decision to rechange the game mechanics. I would recommend to ask the competitive players for feedback. Competitive players are professional with the NS2 game mechanics, they know alot of balancing.

    I'm not a fan of this balance, aspecially the fade energy cost increase for blink and the onos nerf. :(

    <b>But I'm still happy for a new patch, I'm always happy for a new patches. :D But I didn't see any performance improvement in this patch though :/ </b>
  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
    edited November 2012
    To fix that aliens most of the time drop a really fast 2nd hive aliens need to be viable on one hive. It's a bit better now than before, but I don't think we're quite there yet.

    I'm thankful that the 2hive onos drop is gone though. Thanks for that. It will be interesting to see how the game plays without it and with the additional changes.

    I don't remember "which" blink was b220, fingers crossed for the good one. But hey, at least we're not teleporting any more!
  • DeadmindsXDeadmindsX Join Date: 2012-11-07 Member: 168110Members
    Updated my servers to build 230. Lets see if this memory leak has been patched. Good bye to 2.2gigs of ram being eaten by server.exe

    Exited steam and restart steam client, still won't update.


    ~connect server1.wonuts.com
    ~connect server2.wonuts.com
    ~connect server3.wonuts.com
  • swalkswalk Say hello to my little friend. Join Date: 2011-01-20 Member: 78384Members, Squad Five Blue
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Evolving Onos eggs now requires three Hives instead of two. Onos eggs are a complex matter, and are a work in progress!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Onos fix! Finally!
  • SquishyOneSquishyOne Join Date: 2005-01-11 Member: 34963Members
    The alien com I just played with said he couldn't drop an onos without a third hive. If this is correct it is an incredibly inartful solution to the problem of early onos. The problem with early onos is that it is EARLY, not that it comes with two hives. The simplest solution is simply making it not droppable until 10-15 minutes into the game and bam, problem is solved with no other balance ramifications. Now you have aliens who could get trapped on two hives for 20-30 minutes and have almost no comeback solution which is a collateral consequencethat has nothing to do with the timer issues. As much as I have loved ns1 and hope to someday love ns2 the balancing component of the dev team is like a bull in a chinashop...

    Edit: They just gave the balance log and "Evolving Onos eggs now requires three Hives instead of two. Onos eggs are a complex matter, and are a work in progress!" No, it really isn't very complicated and what you've done is make it so that Onos will now be incredibly rare in any game that aliens aren't already dominating because only alien teams that have 3 hives plus saved up 75 res will drop them. Very disappointing.
  • N4kame0N4kame0 Join Date: 2009-10-16 Member: 69061Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2012
    Balance the game for the competitive players and the balance in pub will rise with their skill level.
    This is crazy.

    <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=SquishyOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SquishyOne)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The problem with early onos is that it is EARLY, not that it comes with two hives.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Like SquishyOne said
    It's a simple fact... what is going on at UWE ?
    Now what happens when you have a 2cc vs 2 hives, GG is what! Full tech marines vs aliens stuck on 2 hives but no way to save up their res for onos, great.

    I love you guys for all that you have given us and I want to see this game succeed, so please for the love of NS(GOD) get it together.
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Changed combat timeout to 4 seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This doesn't appear to be true, at least as far as Regen is concerned. Outdated change?

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reduced mega regeneration (max regeneration is now 10 per second instead of 120).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Not sure what this is referring to, but it's not true for Regen, tested with an Onos who regenned about 60 per tick.
  • SafewoodSafewood Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166381Members
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Evolving Onos eggs now requires three Hives instead of two. Onos eggs are a complex matter, and are a work in progress!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The issue with this is the whole "no personal resources while dead". The more marines successfully pushes you back, the longer time it will take aliens to get an Onos. How much of an impact this will have with only these changes can only time tell, but the mechanics of Fade and the kit of Lerk has to be changed.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Reduced shadow step cost from 15 to 10.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Completely unnecessary change, and I can't understand the thought process behind this. The energy cost was completely fine. All it needed was slightly reduced in its cooldown, or slightly increase hang time in air.

    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Exo armor changed from to 300/390/480/570 to 400/460/520/580.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Add an ability for Exosuits to be less of a liability, yet not completely independent. Hardsuits from Blacklight: Retribution comes in mind.
  • Captain VentrisCaptain Ventris Join Date: 2012-09-27 Member: 160871Members
    Squishy, P. Res expenditure for lifeforms and T. Res purchasing of Eggs is separate. You can still evolve Onos on one Hive if you have 75 P. Res.
  • l3lessedl3lessed Join Date: 2010-06-07 Member: 71977Members
    Well, at least they're admitting the three hive solution is temporary. It reeks of a quick fix, and makes onos eggs only useful when the game has been pretty much decided. If Aliens lock down three hives, and have the spare res for onos, its statistically going to be a GG anyways. I'm biased though, as I have always not liked the hive tech combination, even in NS1.
  • HeavymetalHeavymetal Join Date: 2005-05-06 Member: 51039Members
    So was this patch suppose to be a kick in the balls to aliens? seriously, regen capped at 10 hps! 10! no one is going to take that. Shift change, while needed in lower player count matches, has turned every server over 16p into an auto-egglock for aliens.
    Increasing second hive drop isn't going to decrease the popularity of fast 2nd by itself. So long as marines can get phasegates 2-3 minutes into the match, aliens can't function on one hive.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2029625:date=Nov 19 2012, 11:50 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 19 2012, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This doesn't appear to be true, at least as far as Regen is concerned. Outdated change?


    Not sure what this is referring to, but it's not true for Regen, tested with an Onos who regenned about 60 per tick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Beat me to it. I don't see these changes looking at the actual LUA files.
  • bLink`bLink` Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146506Members, Reinforced - Supporter
    Blink should be multi-directional. I was looking forward for that, but blink feels the same with more energy cost.
  • VitdomVitdom Join Date: 2012-04-30 Member: 151345Members, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Gold, Reinforced - Diamond, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    edited November 2012
    Thank you! I have been waiting for these changes to the skulk since the movement responsiveness was removed/extremely reduced months back!

    Two ideas:
    <ul><li>Please implement a C-like #include directive to the NS2 Lua API. Even though Lua might not have this(I don't know a lot about Lua) it'd greatly improve modability friendliness! (tell me if this already exists!)</li><li>Make the observatory's detection zone show up in spectator mode</li></ul>
  • SavantSavant Join Date: 2002-11-30 Member: 10289Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
    <!--quoteo(post=2029611:date=Nov 20 2012, 01:44 AM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Nov 20 2012, 01:44 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I have this bad feeling about uwe makes balance by looking through public statistic. UWE usually mentioned from time to time about their win/loss ration statistic on their Q&A. Static doesn't mean anything for public games. It can be good to know who's winning and losing but it can't be the cause of a decision to change the game mechanics.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->Of course it can. Public games represent 99% of games played. Why would you balance the game around the '1%' ?

    I've already offered my opinion on your suggestion <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=124858&view=findpost&p=2029413" target="_blank">here</a>. I'm all for competitive players balancing the gameplay for a TOURNAMENT MODE. Add a tournament mode to the game, and you can put in all the balance changes necessary to make it a great competitive game. Meanwhile, those changes won't impact the public servers - which can 'pub' along without expecting players to play like pros in order for the game to be balanced for them.

    We can make both sides happy, but we'll never make either side happy trying to balance the game for both competitive players and pubbers.
  • S_BadguyS_Badguy Join Date: 2003-12-03 Member: 23925Members
    Bug: Unable to evolve upgrades after upgrades lost and regained. Icons clickable, evolution sound occurs, nothing happens. Don't remember exact steps to reproduce but I was onos with nothing but carapace and no way to get the available celerity/adrenaline and silence/invis. Not good.
  • DawormDaworm Join Date: 2009-06-22 Member: 67900Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2029623:date=Nov 20 2012, 03:49 PM:name=SquishyOne)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SquishyOne @ Nov 20 2012, 03:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029623"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The alien com I just played with said he couldn't drop an onos without a third hive. If this is correct it is an incredibly inartful solution to the problem of early onos. The problem with early onos is that it is EARLY, not that it comes with two hives. The simplest solution is simply making it not droppable until 10-15 minutes into the game and bam, problem is solved with no other balance ramifications. Now you have aliens who could get trapped on two hives for 20-30 minutes and have almost no comeback solution which is a collateral consequencethat has nothing to do with the timer issues. As much as I have loved ns1 and hope to someday love ns2 the balancing component of the dev team is like a bull in a chinashop...

    Edit: They just gave the balance log and "Evolving Onos eggs now requires three Hives instead of two. Onos eggs are a complex matter, and are a work in progress!" No, it really isn't very complicated and what you've done is make it so that Onos will now be incredibly rare in any game that aliens aren't already dominating because only alien teams that have 3 hives plus saved up 75 res will drop them. Very disappointing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    no no no no nonononononononoNoNONONONO!

    Seriously? Limit a game based on a hardcoded timer?
    That's how to kill your DYNAMIC gameplay and the community.
    What if the Alien's are plucky enough to take and hold 3 hives in 6 minutes?
    They have to wait until 15 minutes before they can do anything....

    They should deserve to ONOS if the Marines are fail to stop at least that 3rd hive.
  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2029636:date=Nov 20 2012, 05:57 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Nov 20 2012, 05:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course it can. Public games represent 99% of games played. Why would you balance the game around the '1%' ?

    I've already offered my opinion on your suggestion <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=124858&view=findpost&p=2029413" target="_blank">here</a>. I'm all for competitive players balancing the gameplay for a TOURNAMENT MODE. Add a tournament mode to the game, and you can put in all the balance changes necessary to make it a great competitive game. Meanwhile, those changes won't impact the public servers - which can 'pub' along without expecting players to play like pros in order for the game to be balanced for them.

    We can make both sides happy, but we'll never make either side happy trying to balance the game for both competitive players and pubbers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    A "Tournament mode" won't really solve anything though. It will just increase the gap between public players and competitive players even further.

    What I would like to see is that the 6v6 matchups are the standard gametype. Where you search for a game, much like in Mobas. Make the current form of public servers a mod, or whatever. Adding from-menu availability to spectate "top" games.

    There is a lot of useful things to gather from dota2, lol and starcraft. It is also a way to avoid having to balance for 6v6 and games with up to 30 players.

    The majority of the playerbase would probably disagree with me, haters gonna hate etc.

    <3
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=2029641:date=Nov 19 2012, 09:00 PM:name=S_Badguy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (S_Badguy @ Nov 19 2012, 09:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029641"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bug: Unable to evolve upgrades after upgrades lost and regained. Icons clickable, evolution sound occurs, nothing happens. Don't remember exact steps to reproduce but I was onos with nothing but carapace and no way to get the available celerity/adrenaline and silence/invis. Not good.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Thanks I'll look into this asap
  • unkindunkind Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143563Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2029625:date=Nov 19 2012, 11:50 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 19 2012, 11:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This doesn't appear to be true, at least as far as Regen is concerned. Outdated change?


    Not sure what this is referring to, but it's not true for Regen, tested with an Onos who regenned about 60 per tick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    maybe that's regen + the base regen? (the base regen seems pretty good without regen)
  • SaniKSaniK Join Date: 2012-11-04 Member: 166850Members
    Where can I see the changes?
  • Snypr18Snypr18 Join Date: 2012-11-09 Member: 168566Members
    Three hive Onos seems a little extreme to me, and I am pretty much a scrub.

    I forsee a lot of exos now with no onos to combat them.
  • haztelihazteli Join Date: 2012-09-04 Member: 157786Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2012
    40% in marine victory can also be explained by the increasing numbers of players waiting in the ready room to enter marine and which consequently blocks the entrance to the more experienced players who can give advice.
  • HughHugh Cameraman San Francisco, CA Join Date: 2010-04-18 Member: 71444NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=2029611:date=Nov 20 2012, 02:44 PM:name=oldassgamers)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oldassgamers @ Nov 20 2012, 02:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029611"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure if this is true or not, but I have this bad feeling about uwe makes balance by looking through public statistic. UWE usually mentioned from time to time about their win/loss ration statistic on their Q&A. Static doesn't mean anything for public games.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The game is balanced via wide consultation, observation, statistic collection, anecdote, and theory. Anything you've heard to the contrary is untrue.

    Many people accuse us of balancing only for competitive, or only for public, or only for win/loss ratio, or even of favouring a particular team. All of that is untrue. The reality is NS2 is an extremely complicated interconnected system. That system can be upset, or corrected, by even the tiniest rippling changes.

    Charlie casts an extremely wide net when balancing it, and anything you might have heard to the contrary is incorrect.
  • SewlekSewlek The programmer previously known as Schimmel Join Date: 2003-05-13 Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=2029625:date=Nov 20 2012, 12:50 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Nov 20 2012, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This doesn't appear to be true, at least as far as Regen is concerned. Outdated change?


    Not sure what this is referring to, but it's not true for Regen, tested with an Onos who regenned about 60 per tick.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    combat timeout is still 1.5, that patch note is out dated.

    onos could almost regenerate twice as much before (about 110 per second)
  • AhnteisAhnteis teh Bob Join Date: 2002-10-02 Member: 1405Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
    Unless I'm crazier than I thought, I swear I remember multiple posts about how marines were winning nearly 50% of their games. Yet 95% of the balance changes are alien nerfs?

    At +10hp/s an onos will be healed after... 2 minutes? With that low a regen rate, why wouldn't you just stick with cara and run back to hive? (for all lifeforms.)
  • N4kame0N4kame0 Join Date: 2009-10-16 Member: 69061Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=2029636:date=Nov 20 2012, 06:57 AM:name=Savant)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Savant @ Nov 20 2012, 06:57 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029636"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course it can. Public games represent 99% of games played. Why would you balance the game around the '1%' ?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The public players will learn from the competitive scene.
    The 1% will show them how to play optimal, and teach them their ways.

    If the 99% can't play well enough <b>YET</b> they will in time. It's only a matter of time, the balance will improve for the public games at the same rate as their skill level.
  • unkindunkind Join Date: 2012-02-04 Member: 143563Members
    <!--quoteo(post=2029668:date=Nov 20 2012, 12:16 AM:name=Ahnteis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ahnteis @ Nov 20 2012, 12:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Unless I'm crazier than I thought, I swear I remember multiple posts about how marines were winning nearly 50% of their games. Yet 95% of the balance changes are alien nerfs?

    At +10hp/s an onos will be healed after... 2 minutes? With that low a regen rate, why wouldn't you just stick with cara and run back to hive? (for all lifeforms.)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    it's way faster than that, don't just look at the numbers, regen still seemed very powerful for all units (but not too powerful, imo, since marines can kill skulks in .4 seconds and everything)
  • N4kame0N4kame0 Join Date: 2009-10-16 Member: 69061Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited November 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=2029665:date=Nov 20 2012, 06:15 AM:name=Strayan (NS2HD))--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Strayan (NS2HD) @ Nov 20 2012, 06:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=2029665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The game is balanced via wide consultation, observation, statistic collection, anecdote, and theory. Anything you've heard to the contrary is untrue.

    Many people accuse us of balancing only for competitive, or only for public, or only for win/loss ratio, or even of favouring a particular team. All of that is untrue. The reality is NS2 is an extremely complicated interconnected system. That system can be upset, or corrected, by even the tiniest rippling changes.

    Charlie casts an extremely wide net when balancing it, and anything you might have heard to the contrary is incorrect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=Build 230 notes)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Build 230 notes)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The discrepancy continued to widen to an unacceptable 40% marine wins.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You can tell how we would get that idea. Especially since the initial reaction to the (i hope) temp onos fix and some other recent changes is that it doesn't seem that well thought through.
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