Gorge the Gardener

schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaintMembers Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Posts: 3,543 Fully active user
let gorge move alien commander structures
I think that the gorge would be really fun to play, if you were more of a gardener, (rather than just dropping 3 hydras and some clogs.)

Wouldn't it be fun if, as a gorge, you relocate commander dropped structures to better positions?


E.g. alien commander drops a crag, but its no longer in a useful spot, so you can hold "e" on it and it shrinks and dissolves. Then you could bring up your build menu and select it from there, and build the crag like you would normally with hydras.

This means you could now:
-put this crag into a safe location like on the ceiling or a wall etc.
-or move it closer to your gorge fort.
-or digest it, and slide away if your fort is failing! to save the crag and place it somewhere else.


This would work for all commander structures (except harvesters of course), so now you could strategically place whips on walls and ceilings too, to increase their effectiveness.


I don't think trolling would be much of an issue, since you would only be able to relocate structures onto infestation.

And maybe if a gorge is being a troll, the commander could click on the gorge and select a lock option, so that gorge can no longer move structures.
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Comments

  • PsiWarpPsiWarp Gifted Gorge Richmond, B.C., CanadaMembers Join Date: 2010-08-28 Member: 73810Posts: 1,567 Advanced user
    edited September 2012
    I like it! It promotes Gorge-Khamm teamwork and gives Gorges something else to do other than hold M2 at anything with slime on it :)

    Instead of locking a Gorge, how about changing the Uproot/Root toggle and add it to Kharaa static defenses (Crag/Shade/Shift/Whip)? That can serve as the lock mechanism instead of picking on players, which is more of a Marine Commander thing.

    Alternatively, if it's deem too griefable, I can settle for E on Crag/Shade/Shift to pay PRes for Heal Wave/Ink Cloud/Hatch (let Gorge place the Egg).
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  • TwiggehTwiggeh Members Join Date: 2010-09-24 Member: 74165Posts: 508
    Imho both of those are good additions!

    Hold E to relocate structure, press E to activate its skill.

    More hives gives the gorge more slots for the Gorge to carry (1 hive, move 1 structure. 2 hives 2 structures, 3 hives 3 structures).
    Tho, this would REALLY shine if the Gorge got his cysts back..
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  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES! FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS! AustraliaMembers, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Posts: 2,130 mod
    even if they were only limited, i would also love to see gorge get his cysts back!
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  • [HEI] Spade[HEI] Spade Members, Squad Five Blue Join Date: 2012-04-28 Member: 151223Posts: 109
    Very good idea!!

    The gorge doesn't need to have his cysts back... the gorge has to be in relation with the commander so the cysts can be dropped directly by him.

    Also the commander needs a command to disable this ability from the gorge or the structures. It is essential to his tactic.

    THE GORGE NEED IT! ;)
  • KeldornKeldorn Members Join Date: 2012-05-05 Member: 151587Posts: 215
    edited September 2012
    Excellent idea ! Would be funny in addition if a gorge has access to the bio information of one building to reproduce mini versions of his own using pres. :)
  • DarkomicronDarkomicron Members Join Date: 2010-11-24 Member: 75256Posts: 73
    I very much like this idea, also the activation of the skill on a crag/shift or shade. However, this costing Pres of the gorge will lead it it being too expensive for the gorge to do this all the time and help out the team. The gorge should not be something you are the entire game. You should be able to go gorge and play as long as you can while still generating resources so you could lerk afterwards.

    Hydras cost Pres, if all these abilities start costing gorge Pres as well, he will be spending all his money on supporting, which is not fun for the gorge himself.
  • NammNamm Members Join Date: 2011-12-08 Member: 137116Posts: 412 Fully active user
    This is not a bad idea.
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  • RMJRMJ Members Join Date: 2012-08-09 Member: 155190Posts: 181 Advanced user
    Sounds like a good idea.

    Yeah i also agree with gorge being able to make cysts again, just make it a longer cooldown or whatever, so its like to supplement the commander not taking over cyst laying.

    SOmetimes when commander is busy or whatever, and you really just need infestations right here and now, it would be damn nice to be able to put down a cyst
  • arnyboy87arnyboy87 Members Join Date: 2012-08-13 Member: 155551Posts: 158
    +1
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  • Raptor091288Raptor091288 Members, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2002-07-15 Member: 955Posts: 170
    This could be pretty broken, especially if the structures are active while 'on' the gorge. There would need to be some visual indicator so marines could easily identify that it's carrying something (And thus is an even higher priority target than a gorge that isn't carrying anything), and I think the building should have to go through it's 'build' phase again once placed. The commander should also be able to enable/disable the ability to pick up specific structures (Troll level = gorge), as well as give orders on where to place it (Though they wouldn't necessarily follow that order since they're not an AI drone). Maybe slow the gorge's movement slightly and/or disable sliding as well.

    What would marines have to counter this besides killing the gorge (and as a direct result, the building it was carrying) though? Their equivilant is recycling unnecessary buildings and rebuilding them elsewhere, but this one sounds like it's free as long as the alien commander says it's okay.

    How about an immature cyst drop that commanders can place and gorges can then pick up and place elsewhere (In range of others of course)? Team res cost could be the same as a regular cyst, but this way a gorge can place it when and where he needs it (And lose it if it's not placed when he dies). Alternately, just have a gorge cyst cost 5 pres or something, maybe a personal limit of 2-3 cysts, and let the commander 'upgrade' gorge cysts to regular ones at the cost of the same team res cost as the number of cysts converted (Individual cost being the same as a regular commander-placed cyst that is).
  • NammNamm Members Join Date: 2011-12-08 Member: 137116Posts: 412 Fully active user
    QUOTE (Raptor091288 @ Sep 4 2012, 07:25 PM) »
    There would need to be some visual indicator so marines could easily identify that it's carrying something
    Its belly could glow really bright.
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  • KeldornKeldorn Members Join Date: 2012-05-05 Member: 151587Posts: 215
    QUOTE (Namm @ Sep 4 2012, 09:48 PM) »
    Its belly could glow really bright.


    That would work !
  • TechercizerTechercizer 7th Player Members Join Date: 2011-06-11 Member: 103832Posts: 1,850
    This has been brought up before. It was good then, and it's a good idea now.

            Once the infestation reaches the Command Chair, the process begins. One Gorge enters the chair to provide the necessary height. Another climbs on its shoulders to access the controls.

            A Gorge Lab is quickly established, staffed by microscopic Gorges who work tirelessly to unlock the secrets of Frontiersman Technology, stopping only to change their lab coats when they become dirtied. Once the research progresses to a certain point, the Gorgecom gives the order. Nanites are called into service.

            The armature forms. A chosen Gorge, tested many times in the field of battle, enters the machine.

            Servos whir; miniguns spin up in diagnostics; an Exogorge is born.

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  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Members Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Posts: 3,543 Fully active user
    QUOTE (Darkomicron @ Sep 4 2012, 11:55 PM) »
    if all these abilities start costing gorge Pres as well, he will be spending all his money on supporting, which is not fun for the gorge himself.


    ahh yes sorry, i didnt mention that moving the structures wouldn't cost the gorge anything :)
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  • NukoeNukoe Members Join Date: 2012-08-05 Member: 154821Posts: 72
    edited September 2012
    Good idea. Gorges need SOMETHING to make them more interesting to play. As an example, vanilla TF2 engineer was a lot more fun and interactive than what Gorges feel like right now, imo. Either give Gorges more structures to build, or let them do something like this, or both! I don't see many people wanting to be Gorge in each game, which is a shame. Being a Gorge should be a rewarding experience...not a chore.
  • RobustPenguinRobustPenguin Members Join Date: 2012-08-17 Member: 155719Posts: 320
    Cant you already do this with the shift structure? I dont think I've ever seen anyone use it though
  • KeldornKeldorn Members Join Date: 2012-05-05 Member: 151587Posts: 215
    edited September 2012
    While its true that both methods in the end move a structure, I don't think gameplay wise that it overlaps too much.

    The commander needs a shift hive, build a shift structure, wait until it matures to get echo and then teleport structures that are nearby the shift structure to other locations that have infestation. It costs tres while doing so.

    The gorge on the other hand can do this on the field. Its done quicker and more in a direct manner but its also more limited (gorge has to walk all the way and can carry only a limited amount of structures) and risks losing the structure while in transit to its new location.

    So one thing requires the correct tech + techstructure and tres, its essentially teleporting structures. The other method requires no tech (could make it researchable though), no tres/pres and its done by manually moving things around but takes workload of the commander and adds flexibility to gorges.
  • Cee Colon SlashCee Colon Slash Members Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Posts: 390
    I think it's a neat idea, but there is a good potential for griefing there. Plus: what would happen if the gorge were killed when transporting a crag? Does the team lose the crag?
  • KeldornKeldorn Members Join Date: 2012-05-05 Member: 151587Posts: 215
    edited September 2012
    QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Sep 5 2012, 03:15 PM) »
    I think it's a neat idea, but there is a good potential for griefing there. Plus: what would happen if the gorge were killed when transporting a crag? Does the team lose the crag?


    Yes, part of the risks involved. Could always allow commanders to enable gorges to carry things on a personal basis to prevent potential grief.
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  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Members Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Posts: 3,543 Fully active user
    QUOTE (Cee Colon Slash @ Sep 5 2012, 11:15 PM) »
    I think it's a neat idea, but there is a good potential for griefing there. Plus: what would happen if the gorge were killed when transporting a crag? Does the team lose the crag?

    I think its fair that the crag would be lost - if the crag is unguarded its pretty much lost anyway. At least the gorge is fairly good at sliding away when he's in trouble :)
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  • dethovudethovu Members Join Date: 2009-06-23 Member: 67906Posts: 147 Fully active user
    This would be a great way to address the boredom factor of gorging. NS1's gorge was infinitely more fun because of this mechanic.

    Structures should cost p-res and you should only be able to build what the commander has researched. This way you can work in tandem and not overrule the commander's decisions.
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  • SplicerSplicer Members Join Date: 2012-04-23 Member: 150952Posts: 57 Fully active user
    edited September 2012
    I like this idea a lot, I like playing Gorge but I miss having stuff to build. This seems a nice compromise between the NS1 style Gorges and the NS2 Kham system. I would assume that when a Gorge has "gorged" on a structure it becomes inactive until re-placed. For the "activation" option having it simply cost the Gorge energy would probably be enough to prevent excessive spamming, since if you're activating you're not healing/bilebombing etc after all. Or there's the "Gorge can enter buildings" idea, so rather than having an "activate" button the Gorge has an "enter" button, leaving the map and being able to activate and/or enhance the abilities of that one structure until they leave. Would make a nice symmetry between the two functions.

    The structure just vanishing when the Gorge is killed would work, but the structure being placed where the Gorge was killed might minimise the griefing potential.
  • lorenfisherlorenfisher Members Join Date: 2012-11-02 Member: 166229Posts: 8
    QUOTE (schkorpio @ Sep 3 2012, 03:52 PM) »
    I think that the gorge would be really fun to play, if you were more of a gardener, (rather than just dropping 3 hydras and some clogs.)

    Wouldn't it be fun if, as a gorge, you relocate commander dropped structures to better positions?


    E.g. alien commander drops a crag, but its no longer in a useful spot, so you can hold "e" on it and it shrinks and dissolves. Then you could bring up your build menu and select it from there, and build the crag like you would normally with hydras.

    This means you could now:
    -put this crag into a safe location like on the ceiling or a wall etc.
    -or move it closer to your gorge fort.
    -or digest it, and slide away if your fort is failing! to save the crag and place it somewhere else.


    This would work for all commander structures (except harvesters of course), so now you could strategically place whips on walls and ceilings too, to increase their effectiveness.


    I don't think trolling would be much of an issue, since you would only be able to relocate structures onto infestation.

    And maybe if a gorge is being a troll, the commander could click on the gorge and select a lock option, so that gorge can no longer move structures.


    Moving structures could be used to grief your own team mates. So, no. I don't want to see that become an option. It is part of being a good alien commander to know where to place structures. It is part of the fun of being an alien commander to plan your structure placement. The moment your team mates can move around structures without your knowledge or consent, your master plan could be unraveled. Not fun at all.

    Here are my compiled suggestions for the Gorge class:

    01 - Hydras
    hydras now cost zero personal resources, down from 3
    hydra hit points increased 33%
    hydras now deal additional poison damage over 6 seconds. Remember that mechanical units are immune to poison

    02 - Clogs
    base clog health is unchanged
    clog health now also increases depending on how many other clogs are connected in the chain
    each gorge can place up to 12 clogs, up from 10

    03 - Gorges: The base defender
    Gorges can now build whips. They cost 9 personal resources each. They can only be built on infestation and only on the ground.
  • LofungLofung Members Join Date: 2004-08-21 Member: 30757Posts: 903
    gorges should really get the right to build most of the structures. even if they have to spent their own res. its their own res after all. its what makes ns1 gorges so fun.
  • kyliegirlkyliegirl Gorge Master AustraliaMembers, Reinforced - Shadow Join Date: 2002-12-11 Member: 10586Posts: 1,364 Fully active user
    edited November 2012
    I actually like this idea, it would allow the gorge to tactically place structures while the commander can continue upgrading and providing support to the remaining team.

    @Lofung - I agree, but it is clear the dev team want this change, so maybe this could be a good alternative compromise for those of us who want to play the old gorge way :)
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  • Insurance SalesmanInsurance Salesman Members Join Date: 2012-05-26 Member: 152617Posts: 29
    edited November 2012
    Honestly, I think this is a great idea. Gorges are pretty fun right now, but it would be nice to do a little bit more than setting up a clog wall with turrets and sitting there healing it. Plus, to deal with griefing, you could have each structure be locked by default (so therefore only structures the khammander wanted moved would be available for picking up).

    Perhaps to keep the shift useful in late game, however, maybe have gorge-moves reset the structure's maturity? So you could either have a gorge move the structure for free but have it be weaker on rebuilding, or pay for the shift to move it in it's present state.
  • PsympleJesterPsympleJester Members Join Date: 2008-04-06 Member: 64024Posts: 719
    I would prefer if the gorge couldn't "move" structures but was instead "given" structures to place.
    He then found them in his menu like hydras and clots.

    Crags + Whips on the ceiling? xD
    Shades hidden in vents? :D
    QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Nov 5 2012, 09:27 PM) »
    In no circumstances, should it take more than an entire SMG Clip to kill a fade. I did several tests on this, even standing still, with next to 0 ping, it takes more than a clip from the SMG to kill a Fade.

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  • MouseMouse The Lighter Side of Pessimism Members, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow Join Date: 2002-03-02 Member: 263Posts: 3,567 mod
    Here's a thought: Should any passive abilities that these structures have still work while the gorge is carrying them?

    So, a gorge carrying a crag would become a mobile AoE healing station.
    And a gorge carrying a shade would become a mobile cloaking field. >:D
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  • PsympleJesterPsympleJester Members Join Date: 2008-04-06 Member: 64024Posts: 719
    edited November 2012
    QUOTE (Mouse @ Nov 4 2012, 12:58 AM) »
    Here's a thought: Should any passive abilities that these structures have still work while the gorge is carrying them?

    So, a gorge carrying a crag would become a mobile AoE healing station.
    And a gorge carrying a shade would become a mobile cloaking field. >:D


    Yes! And whilst he is carrying them he should have them cute'ly placed on his back/head! :D

    ---

    In all seriousness... no... that would be totally imba!! xD
    Gorge carrying a shift for permanent heal and bile-bomb AT THE SAME TIME!
    QUOTE (Mkilbride @ Nov 5 2012, 09:27 PM) »
    In no circumstances, should it take more than an entire SMG Clip to kill a fade. I did several tests on this, even standing still, with next to 0 ping, it takes more than a clip from the SMG to kill a Fade.

    Marine Starting Gun should ###### up the Aliens 50 res life form yo... Seems Legit.

    NS2_Siege007 Remake.
  • AnsomAnsom Members Join Date: 2012-11-03 Member: 166364Posts: 106
    edited November 2012
    I really like the idea of the commander merely investing in structures, but the Gorges being the ones to fetch and deploy them. The commander should create them and place them, but the actual structure should be delivered to a near-by Hive. The Gorge can go up to the Hive and use the mouse wheel to scroll through the buildings in the hive and click to select one. He can then place it anywhere he pleases or use a hint button to see where the commander intended to place it; indicated by the structure's outline at the target location on the Gorge's HUD.

    Gorge was my favorite alien class in the original game, but I see no reason at all to play them now. Their previous role has been taken from them, and the things they do now are easily overshadowed by other mechanics. Heal? People run past me to the Hive because it's more efficient than me standing there breathing on them. Aliens don't exactly have a mobility problem. Spit? Play another alien that's more combat-oriented. Bile Bomb is arguably the only good thing about Gorges. Those little turrets and clogs? They're really insignificant.
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