The new Onos

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Comments

  • duvelduvel Join Date: 2004-02-09 Member: 26318Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->currently you can hear an onos halfway across the map as if they are in the next room<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    personally i love it :)
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    Charge onos can go way too fast, it just look ridiculous. Tying onos egg to the second or third hive is a dirty band-aid fix.
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    I would rather see jetpacks made faster, onos range fixed, physics fixed so the onos cant just climb up walls to get you, delay on when youre actually in the air out of range with jetpack lowered etc.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1986890:date=Oct 4 2012, 12:56 PM:name=shader)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (shader @ Oct 4 2012, 12:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986890"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Did you watch any games in the BBC?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    I haven't played 221 yet. I merely assumed that Onos still get slaughtered by exos and jetpacks as easily as they did before. Apparently some sort of Onos rush is the new flavor of the month? Sounds good to me.

    I feel a big problem with the game was always how aliens were the ones who were under pressure. "We better kill their res towers otherwise they are going to get upgrades too fast". "We better stop them from taking a second tech point otherwise they will get exos". The marines never gave a ###### what the aliens were doing because honestly, it didn't affect them. I like that there is some pressure on the marines now, though it sounds like there isn't a course of action for the marines to take if they determine the current situation to be undesirable.

    <!--quoteo(post=1986912:date=Oct 4 2012, 02:02 PM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Oct 4 2012, 02:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986912"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would rather see jetpacks made faster, onos range fixed, physics fixed so the onos cant just climb up walls to get you, delay on when youre actually in the air out of range with jetpack lowered etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Are you taking into account how jetpacks perform in rooms like generator and cargo? It's all well and good to see some sort of problem with the jetpack in certain situations, but it doesn't help to then make them absolutely unstoppable when attacking in other situations.
  • Squirreli_Squirreli_ Join Date: 2012-04-25 Member: 151046Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1986914:date=Oct 4 2012, 03:07 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 4 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I haven't played 221 yet. I merely assumed that Onos still get slaughtered by exos and jetpacks as easily as they did before. Apparently some sort of Onos rush is the new flavor of the month? Sounds good to me.

    I feel a big problem with the game was always how aliens were the ones who were under pressure. "We better kill their res towers otherwise they are going to get upgrades too fast". "We better stop them from taking a second tech point otherwise they will get exos". The marines never gave a ###### what the aliens were doing because honestly, it didn't affect them. I like that there is some pressure on the marines now, though it sounds like there isn't a course of action for the marines to take if they determine the current situation to be undesirable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Onos is has higher base speed, doesn't have slowdown after charge and with carapace has 1300 health and 1000 armour. It will mow down any mines and will tank so that skulks get relatively untouched at the marines. The marines have no other tools against it in early game (where it first currently appears) other than to group up and try to chase it down. Usually either a) marines lose a lot of map control as they are heavily forced into the defensive or b) marines lose the game as they lose significant forward bases. Sometimes, rarely, marines can take an onos down and are back in the game. Onos would likely require a small nerf, but most of all the onos is a problem in the early game. Requiring 3 hives for onos egg drop from khammander will sweep this problem under the rug. Still, 2 onoses at a power node will at almost any point of the game take that node down before dying... Exception to this being bases held with dual exos ;)
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    Band Aid fix.

    We are basically wasting our time, the game is getting more and more linear. (we dont deal with the disease, only symptoms)
  • shadershader Join Date: 2003-02-07 Member: 13247Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1986914:date=Oct 4 2012, 08:07 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 4 2012, 08:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I haven't played 221 yet. I merely assumed that Onos still get slaughtered by exos and jetpacks as easily as they did before. Apparently some sort of Onos rush is the new flavor of the month? Sounds good to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    The Onos being flavour of the month since 221 is kinda the point of this thread, see the OP. Watch the games blind recommends in his <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=121606" target="_blank">BBC videos post</a> to get an idea of the magnitude of the changes.

    <!--quoteo(post=0:date=:name=koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (koruyo)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Band Aid fix.

    We are basically wasting our time with those band aid fixes, the game is getting more and more linear.

    You may be able to call it balanced at some point, but its also s*it. (at some point i imagine you could replace commanders with a timebased macro)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Following the comp streams and seeing the ongoing complaints of comp players, I keep wishing the NS2 project had started out with a bunch of game mechanic trials on the NS1 codebase. That might have identified some of the problems early on. The pres/tres change sounded good on paper, but in practice it seems to have killed most of the tradeoffs that made the alien metagame.

    I heard the NS1 source code was lost, anyone know if that is true?
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1986914:date=Oct 4 2012, 03:07 PM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Oct 4 2012, 03:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986914"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you taking into account how jetpacks perform in rooms like generator and cargo? It's all well and good to see some sort of problem with the jetpack in certain situations, but it doesn't help to then make them absolutely unstoppable when attacking in other situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Those are level design issues. Big open areas dont generally work that well in a game thats about ranged versus melee combat. No point dumbing down jetpacks this much just so you can have a couple of big rooms.
  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
    And there are a lot of big rooms..
  • ZekZek Join Date: 2002-11-10 Member: 7962Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1986779:date=Oct 3 2012, 07:16 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Oct 3 2012, 07:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986779"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->For clarity, my suggestion is to move the onos<b> drops</b> to hive 3. You can still onos on 1 hive from p-res. (Though P-res flow/timings for aliens (and alien RT control in general) is another topic entirely)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This feels like a very ugly band-aid solution. It shouldn't be a problem for an Onos to show up relatively early, especially at the cost of all the comm's early game money. If the problem is that the Onos is too durable for early game marines to kill because his HP values are balanced for the late game, that's just another symptom of the lack of alien defense scaling. If aliens had passive armor upgrades like marines, then Onoses could be balanced to have an appropriate amount of HP for the time they show up.
  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->-Make Charge the 2nd hive ability for Onos, require research and increase it's energy cost to use<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    onos without a tier1 charge will feel even less skill-based imo.

    i agree that onos needs some sort of nerf, but i'd also like to point out that many people still see weapon-upgrades-first-and-keep-armor1-for-a-while as standard practise. this is effective against fades (and probably the reason why many many people still go weapons3 and armor1, as armor2 does not grant extra hits against fades) and reasonably effective against skulks, but you still only last 2 hits against an onos. e.g. in the game with light (i think it was him) giving the enemies massive trouble as onos, i had liked to see armor2 earlier than higher weapon upgrades: the fact that hide armor is removed means that the weapon upgrades are not as crucial anymore. i might be wrong, but i think you can easily make up for 10% less damage by lasting one more hit as people have more time to keep fireing. have to admit though: slightest amount of damage from any other source will bring you down to 2 hits again. so while i notice a massive difference when playing onos in pub, it might not translate to competitive games, especially when the additional firepower is needed against structures.
  • MisterNubsMisterNubs Join Date: 2012-03-01 Member: 147912Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1987130:date=Oct 4 2012, 08:24 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Oct 4 2012, 08:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987130"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>that's just another symptom of the lack of alien defense scaling. If aliens had passive armor upgrades like marines, then Onoses could be balanced to have an appropriate amount of HP for the time they show up.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Hit the nail on the head.

    Feedback in this area has only be ignored countless times over the past 8 months. Now we're stuck in the mess we're in now.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    UWE has never even mentioned scaling for aliens (I have also advocated for this in the past). That's why they are not suggested in the OP.. only "realistic" solutions :/
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited October 2012
    Comparatively, it's no wonder that the NS2 Onos is hilariously overpowered at the moment.

    <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>NS1 Onos:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    HP: 700.
    Armor: 600.
    Rarely seen until after 12 minutes into the game.
    Has devour on hive1 and stomp on hive2.

    <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro--><b>NS2 Onos:</b><!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
    HP: 1300 (that's right, 600 more health...).
    Armor: 600 (carapace also adds a ridiculous amount of armor, a lot more than it did in NS1).
    Can be comm-dropped at around 7-8 minutes into the game.
    Has a powerful charge attack on hive1 that can be spammed endlessly without fear of running out of energy, and can one-shot unupgraded marines that get hit by it.
    Gore attack has unbelievably long range.

    Not to mention that the NS2 jetpack is a lot slower than the jetpack in NS1 and there is no HMG in NS2. Good luck killing that beast with shotguns...
  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited October 2012
    Fana you forgot the Hidearmor bonus that you had in NS1 and that isnt active anymore in NS2 so its almost the same.
    And in NS1 you didnt have and different DMG types like the 25 Heavy DMG from the EXO.

    Agree that charge is abit overpowered and its energycost needs to be increased, infact you can even 1 hit a A1 Marine, and a A2 has 3HP, and a A3 Marine 29Hp and 7 AP, left after a charge attack.

    Interessting fact EXO is not affected by the DMG Upgrades!
  • NolSinklerNolSinkler On the Clorf Join Date: 2004-02-15 Member: 26560Members, Constellation
    Why doesn't armor improve with hives like in NS1? In NS1, each point of armor was worth 2 health with hive 1, 2.5 at hive 2, and 3 at hive 3. I liked it.
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1987145:date=Oct 5 2012, 01:53 AM:name=Floodinator)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Floodinator @ Oct 5 2012, 01:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987145"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Fana you forgot the Hidearmor bonus that you had in NS1 and that isnt active anymore in NS2 so its almost the same.
    And in NS1 you didnt have and different DMG types like the 25 Heavy DMG from the EXO.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Do you mean hive armor? That only came into play on hive3 (and still wasn't even close to the 600hp difference) so not really relevant to this discussion about early/mid-game Onos.
    EXO isn't really relevant to the discussion, for the same reason. I've yet to see anyone successfully use them in comp play either, for that matter. Too expensive and too many limitations.

    <!--quoteo(post=1987152:date=Oct 5 2012, 02:16 AM:name=NolSinkler)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NolSinkler @ Oct 5 2012, 02:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why doesn't armor improve with hives like in NS1? In NS1, each point of armor was worth 2 health with hive 1, 2.5 at hive 2, and 3 at hive 3. I liked it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    This was changed in later versions of NS1, actually. In NS 3.2, the final version played since 2007, you only got the armor boost on hive3.
  • FloodinatorFloodinator [HBZ] Member Join Date: 2005-02-22 Member: 42087Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    Yes I meant Hive armor, but didn't know they changed it in 3.2 to Hive 3, hence I mostly played on modded Servers that had 1.04 balances in it so I didn't knew it, my fault.

    In general the problem with the Onos is it does too much DMG (Wiki says 95 but its something like 119) and the 2x multiplier when fully charged, the HP and Armor values are more balanced for bigger PUB games and the Normal DMG from the LMG/SG wich leads to 2500HP for the Onos in total (5 full lvl 0 LMG clips) too much for Comp play but ok on bigger PUBs.
    Onos lost devour that could atleast disbale one LMG that was shooting at him and has no Tier 2 attack. But got a general HP and massive DMG boost to compensate it, maybe too much.
    The Armor, atleast, needs to be halfed so you need 1 clip less to get him down, and the Gore DMG needs also a reduction to atleast 95.

    IMO it is ok that the Kham can drop a Onos Egg with 2 Hives, 75 Tres take more than 3min to save up on 3RTs, if you don't loose one, and you won't get any other UPs in the meantime. For 75 Tres you can get Blink, Bilebomb and a upgraded Hive. Its a high risk but high potential tactic.

    NS2 will always have some balance problems because it wants to be balanced for Comp (6vs6) and pub (up to 16vs16 in the worst case).
  • LittleLeezardLittleLeezard Join Date: 2010-10-15 Member: 74460Members
    edited October 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1986743:date=Oct 3 2012, 11:44 PM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Oct 3 2012, 11:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1986743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->His base walk speed was also buffed by 1-2 I believe.

    In the least I would like to see energy changes to make energy management an important part of being a good Onos (as well as moving onos drops to Hive 3). I agree that the onos should indeed be powerful, but I'd also prefer it if he was not such a brainless button-mash to play like he is now. Just like bad Exo's are easily punished for over-extending or rambo'ing, I'd like to see bad Onos punishable by being slow to retreat if they are not wise in managing energy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Brainless button mash? Every played an exo? Squeez, win. Most all ranged weapons are brainless. Melee units by default requires more skill to move, chase, attack, hit, kill.

    Vs. Aim, shoot, run backwards...

    In very, very few games are guns harder (skill wise) to use than melee builds. I can't think of 1.


    As to the actual topic, Onos feels really good now. Maybe a bit more restriction to stamina, but over all it can do its job finally. Still is easily countered with an exo, but now it can fill its nich nicely and marines still have solid counter. With jetpack changes, oni don't get completely ruined mid/late game, and is infinitely more fun (as you aren't being a waste of time and resources to your team anymore for going onos after minute 10). Feels right.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    On the contrary, I would say the Onos is a pretty good counter to Exo now. It takes a dual-minigun exo an entire overheat of <i>every single bullet</i> hitting to kill a cara/onos right now. The Exo is easily punished for being out of position, and you generally have to stick with 1-2 marines to get anything done in one. In this respect I think the Exo requires slightly more tact to play than an Onos. Onos at the moment can make mistake after mistake and get away scott-free.

    Though I agree with you that both can arguably use some more intriguing mechanics from a strategy/playstyle perspective.
  • ShakerShaker Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9582Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1987200:date=Oct 5 2012, 12:05 AM:name=LittleLeezard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LittleLeezard @ Oct 5 2012, 12:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Brainless button mash? Every played an exo? Squeez, win. Most all ranged weapons are brainless. Melee units by default requires more skill to move, chase, attack, hit, kill.

    Vs. Aim, shoot, run backwards...

    In very, very few games are guns harder (skill wise) to use than melee builds. I can't think of 1.


    As to the actual topic, Onos feels really good now. Maybe a bit more restriction to stamina, but over all it can do its job finally. Still is easily countered with an exo, but now it can fill its nich nicely and marines still have solid counter. With jetpack changes, oni don't get completely ruined mid/late game, and is infinitely more fun (as you aren't being a waste of time and resources to your team anymore for going onos after minute 10). Feels right.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You can drop an onos in 8 minutes comfortably. Let's see where your marine tech is at at 8 minutes. Got an exo? Nope.
  • LittleLeezardLittleLeezard Join Date: 2010-10-15 Member: 74460Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1987206:date=Oct 5 2012, 05:32 AM:name=Shaker)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Shaker @ Oct 5 2012, 05:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987206"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can drop an onos in 8 minutes comfortably. Let's see where your marine tech is at at 8 minutes. Got an exo? Nope.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    don't need an exo for a vanilla onos. Aliens wont exatly have regen and celerity and onos at minute 8.
  • DuskDusk Join Date: 2011-06-24 Member: 106114Members, Constellation
    I have had alot of fun with the onos this last build but they are op. They need to be scaled back but not too much i hope.
  • ShakerShaker Join Date: 2002-11-21 Member: 9582Members, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1987625:date=Oct 5 2012, 05:11 PM:name=LittleLeezard)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LittleLeezard @ Oct 5 2012, 05:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1987625"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->don't need an exo for a vanilla onos. Aliens wont exatly have regen and celerity and onos at minute 8.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    You need more than what you have at minute 8, hence the thread.
  • PowerfuryOAPowerfuryOA Join Date: 2012-03-07 Member: 148314Members
    The Onos has become the anti-jp since the Onos can outrun a jetpack. This is concerning.
  • Laosh'RaLaosh'Ra Join Date: 2011-12-09 Member: 137232Members
    <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Wiki says 95 but its something like 119<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    gore is puncture-type, so +25% against players. that said, i dont think there is any other valid possible target for gore as smash is used against structures and MACs etc.
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