BAD CHANGES

24

Comments

  • BicsumBicsum Join Date: 2012-02-27 Member: 147596Members, Reinforced - Gold
    <!--quoteo(post=1967988:date=Aug 29 2012, 06:53 AM:name=stinghawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stinghawk @ Aug 29 2012, 06:53 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967988"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I like the idea of drawbacks too. Especially that exos can't weld each other. But they should be able to get beaconed and go through phase gates.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Imagine you get a pg near the hive and exos just phase gate back and forth when they get hurt with a horde of macs in base. Aliens wouldn't have time to react nor would be able to kill them. Killing a hive as an exo is really fast, but the hurdle is to reach it (pretty much like arc trains).
  • Squeal_Like_A_PigSqueal_Like_A_Pig Janitor Join Date: 2002-01-25 Member: 66Members, Super Administrators, NS1 Playtester, NS2 Developer, Reinforced - Supporter, WC 2013 - Silver, Subnautica Developer
    <!--quoteo(post=1967869:date=Aug 29 2012, 01:24 AM:name=DFC)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DFC @ Aug 29 2012, 01:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967869"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Care to mention who's great idea was to remove marine's health from commander view? who was it that said "hey, commander can see his teams heath waaay to easily, instead of a nice health bar let's make a tiny circle around each marine so comm. has to hover his cursor over individual marine to actually be able to tell who needs help" care to hear your thoughts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    No need for the rude tone. Commander's not seeing health accidentally vanished at some point during the multiple builds leading up to the final patch build, and was overlooked in all the craziness to get this epic patch out that we've been hard at work on for several weeks. It will return.
    <!--quoteo(post=1967980:date=Aug 29 2012, 04:24 AM:name=stinghawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stinghawk @ Aug 29 2012, 04:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In regards to the exo suits. I believe that they are flawed in several ways.

    1. They can't go through phase gates. I don't get it but not a big deal
    2. I fail to understand the bullet spread. When I aim I just try to have my target in the circle and hope I hit the damn skulks.
    3. They can't build structures. Why?!
    4. And this is the one that bothered me the most, they can't be beaconed back to a base....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    The exos are a pretty powerful class, especially when outfitted with dual miniguns. There needs to be tradeoffs, and these particular ones have already proven to lead to some fun gameplay, that forces people to play smarter as a team. Earlier today we had a great PT game, where the marines decided to all save up and go Exo at around the same time, to steamroll the aliens. Well, we all marched off to one of the alien hives to wreck utter and complete destruction upon it, a train of about 6 or 7 Exos with a few regular marines, chortling to ourselves over our impending easy victory. Meanwhile the aliens looped around us, taking out first one CC then finally onto our main base. As we were busy mowing down the alien hive, we weren't really bothering to pay attention to our CC low health warning, until we realized that practically the entire team is all Exos and can't be beaconed back to base. Needless to say we lost.

    Additionally, not being able to weld each other leads to fun Gorge and Onos style teamplay, with the soft squishy regular marines welding the Exo's on their slow march to a hive. And not being able to build buildings also leads to a necessity to mix and match the marine team.

    --Cory
  • dushandushan Breaker of Games Join Date: 2011-10-30 Member: 130202Members, NS2 Developer, Squad Five Blue, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1967980:date=Aug 28 2012, 08:24 PM:name=stinghawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stinghawk @ Aug 28 2012, 08:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->3. They can't build structures. Why?!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    They've got fricking guns for hands. Something with guns for hands doesn't build structures. It puts holes in structures instead. Lots and lots of holes...
  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
    edited August 2012
    I understand and agree with a lot of the trade offs that has been implemented in regards to the exo suit. But getting a bile bomb on you and it ruining your vision is something that I just can not understand. The screen flashing when you're on low hp i can get to some extent, and other minor vision impairing stuff. But this ruins the marines vision completely.

    Vision/Movement impairing effects = Bad, and I do not care for them at all.

    Care to discuss how you came to this conclusion or something? I'd like to hear it.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1968002:date=Aug 29 2012, 06:27 AM:name=Squeal_Like_A_Pig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Squeal_Like_A_Pig @ Aug 29 2012, 06:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968002"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The exos are a pretty powerful class, especially when outfitted with dual miniguns. There needs to be tradeoffs, and these particular ones have already proven to lead to some fun gameplay, that forces people to play smarter as a team. Earlier today we had a great PT game, where the marines decided to all save up and go Exo at around the same time, to steamroll the aliens. Well, we all marched off to one of the alien hives to wreck utter and complete destruction upon it, a train of about 6 or 7 Exos with a few regular marines, chortling to ourselves over our impending easy victory. Meanwhile the aliens looped around us, taking out first one CC then finally onto our main base. As we were busy mowing down the alien hive, we weren't really bothering to pay attention to our CC low health warning, until we realized that practically the entire team is all Exos and can't be beaconed back to base. Needless to say we lost.

    Additionally, not being able to weld each other leads to fun Gorge and Onos style teamplay, with the soft squishy regular marines welding the Exo's on their slow march to a hive. And not being able to build buildings also leads to a necessity to mix and match the marine team.

    --Cory<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I can see the need for tradeoffs, but at the same time I can't see what's there into the exo unless you're enjoying the human turret role. While the game may play out more interesting as a big picture, the exo itself has way more limitations than possibilities it seems.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    <!--quoteo(post=1967980:date=Aug 28 2012, 10:24 PM:name=stinghawk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (stinghawk @ Aug 28 2012, 10:24 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1967980"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm sure all of the blatant negative changes will be adjusted soon enough, before 1.0

    In regards to the exo suits. I believe that they are flawed in several ways.

    1. They can't go through phase gates. I don't get it but not a big deal
    2. I fail to understand the bullet spread. When I aim I just try to have my target in the circle and hope I hit the damn skulks.
    3. They can't build structures. Why?!
    4. And this is the one that bothered me the most, they can't be beaconed back to a base.... As a commander I had established a second base in pipeline while aliens had two hives. Game was even. Exo suits were done with weapons and armor 2. All of a sudden onoses are raping my expansion. Half my team were in exo suits. I was sure we would hold until I found out half my team and all of my damage power didn't get teleported (players in exos).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    Dunno about you but to me these reasons are what makes them so great to play as/against and epic feeling, they are truly an investment both in terms of resources and in terms of your role on the team.
  • ObraxisObraxis Subnautica Animator & Generalist, NS2 Person Join Date: 2004-07-24 Member: 30071Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Silver, WC 2013 - Supporter, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts
    <!--quoteo(post=1968028:date=Aug 29 2012, 07:06 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Aug 29 2012, 07:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968028"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can see the need for tradeoffs, but at the same time I can't see what's there into the exo unless you're enjoying the human turret role. While the game may play out more interesting as a big picture, the exo itself has way more limitations than possibilities it seems.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Sound like you've yet to try it and are speculating. I'd suggest giving it a shot in the game.
  • schkorpioschkorpio I can mspaint Join Date: 2003-05-23 Member: 16635Members
    edited August 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1968011:date=Aug 29 2012, 03:44 PM:name=wiry)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wiry @ Aug 29 2012, 03:44 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968011"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Care to discuss how you came to this conclusion or something? I'd like to hear it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    you mean its not immediately obvious? or are you looking for an apology?

    I swear, the tone of some people in this thread..... you'd think they are the CEO of UWE looking to fire someone... but you aren't and this is a beta, if you can't give feedback constructively then beta testing isn't for you.


    edit: if something doesn't work well it will get changed- we've seen that here before.
  • BacillusBacillus Join Date: 2006-11-02 Member: 58241Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1968034:date=Aug 29 2012, 07:14 AM:name=Obraxis)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Obraxis @ Aug 29 2012, 07:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968034"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sound like you've yet to try it and are speculating. I'd suggest giving it a shot in the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I'm in a place where I don't have the heavy hardware to run game as demanding as this. It took me about 10 minutes to load up a lan server with the stuff I've got here and after that empty Veil ran at 10 fps.

    If you've got some selling arguments for exos, please go ahead and tell me. I think I've had my doze of "Wait and see" already.
  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
    There's nothing rude in my post. I was just asking. I could clutter it up with smileys if that would make you feel better.
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    wiry get back to work
  • wirywiry Join Date: 2009-05-25 Member: 67479Members
    edited August 2012
    I'd rather play 217, but EU servers are almost empty. :(

    edit: added a smiley to get my message through.
  • mushookeesmushookees Join Date: 2008-03-26 Member: 63967Members
    I can guarantee you that if things stay the way they are with exo's and jetpacks, then almost every competitive clan that is playing to win will go for jetpacks

    Exo's will be a pub only affair or it will be used as some type of cheese tactic.

    Theres not really a problem with the exo itself, its mainly jetpacks that need to be seriously looked at in order to make exo a viable choice in a match.
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    If they didnt lose all their maneveurability/movement/beacon/phasegates, they might have a chance due to being the only thing that can carry a hmg. But right now sacrifing everything so you can dish out a bit more damage, that you cant even sustain on the target that long due to limited movement, isnt really worth it.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    <!--quoteo(post=1968056:date=Aug 29 2012, 12:52 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 29 2012, 12:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968056"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If they didnt lose all their maneveurability/movement/beacon/phasegates, they might have a chance due to being the only thing that can carry a hmg. But right now sacrifing everything so you can dish out a bit more damage, that you cant even sustain on the target that long due to limited movement, isnt really worth it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Could they really be balanced if they could be beaconed or phase? even just 1 of those things being possible would greatly negate their lack of mobility imo.
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    If it cant even use a phasegate, what do you use the exo for? Youre only going to use it for some all-in hivepush because you cant respond to attacks anywhere else on the map with it. Just having a big gun will never outweight the usage of phasegates and jetpacks. Its too restrictive. It was never used in ns1 because of that, and in ns2 its even more restrictive. I would love to see it as a realistic choice for marine lategame, but right now it just isnt.
  • RowenRowen Join Date: 2012-05-04 Member: 151545Members
    I can't speak from a competitive point of view, but I'd compare it to a marine onos: something big and unwieldly that needs support to work well and the opposite team can't ignore.
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1968089:date=Aug 29 2012, 12:39 PM:name=Rowen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rowen @ Aug 29 2012, 12:39 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968089"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can't speak from a competitive point of view, but I'd compare it to a marine onos: something big and unwieldly that needs support to work well and the opposite team can't ignore.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Onos has always suffered from the same though, both ns1 and ns2 incarnations and rarely sees use. You can just use fades and jetpacks, they cant be ignored either (would even argue that the fade is a bigger threath than the onos, same as a jetpacks is bigger threath than the exo, mainly due to the superior ability to respond and attack all over the map), and simply do the job better and have much more versatile roles.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1968082:date=Aug 29 2012, 11:32 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 29 2012, 11:32 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968082"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If it cant even use a phasegate, what do you use the exo for? Youre only going to use it for some all-in hivepush because you cant respond to attacks anywhere else on the map with it. Just having a big gun will never outweight the usage of phasegates and jetpacks. Its too restrictive. It was never used in ns1 because of that, and in ns2 its even more restrictive. I would love to see it as a realistic choice for marine lategame, but right now it just isnt.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    A good exo represents like... 3 marines, in health and fire power. Playing against aliens with 2 hives? Send 2 exos to one hive, send 6 marines to the other. Exos have no light support and get swamped? 6 marines take down the hive. Aliens take on light marines who have no heavy backup? Exos trash the other hive. Aliens target marine base instead? Beacon 6 marines back while 2 exos trash alien hive.

    To be honest I see the exo as a rambo unit at the moment. "Supporting" the exo as a light marine isn't really all that viable, because of the massive disparity between the mobility of a light marine and an exo. However, send 2 capable exos in a direction, and you can bet they are gonna need far more than 2 aliens to stop them. Exos are for misdirection.
  • Angry Hillbilly 2Angry Hillbilly 2 Join Date: 2012-03-31 Member: 149741Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1968100:date=Aug 29 2012, 11:00 AM:name=Imbalanxd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Imbalanxd @ Aug 29 2012, 11:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968100"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->A good exo represents like... 3 marines, in health and fire power. Playing against aliens with 2 hives? Send 2 exos to one hive, send 6 marines to the other. Exos have no light support and get swamped? 6 marines take down the hive. Aliens take on light marines who have no heavy backup? Exos trash the other hive. Aliens target marine base instead? Beacon 6 marines back while 2 exos trash alien hive.

    To be honest I see the exo as a rambo unit at the moment. "Supporting" the exo as a light marine isn't really all that viable, because of the massive disparity between the mobility of a light marine and an exo. However, send 2 capable exos in a direction, and you can bet they are gonna need far more than 2 aliens to stop them. Exos are for misdirection.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    But dont forget just how Expensive 2 exos would be. 100 player res or 80 team res for 2 of the basic chasis. 150 pres for the duel chasis. Any team that has this amount of res floating about will have been seriosly vunrable for a while in the game. And a decent skulk cant give an exo a real run for its money up close.
  • ImbalanxdImbalanxd Join Date: 2011-06-15 Member: 104581Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1968108:date=Aug 29 2012, 12:16 PM:name=Angry Hillbilly 2)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Angry Hillbilly 2 @ Aug 29 2012, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But dont forget just how Expensive 2 exos would be. 100 player res or 80 team res for 2 of the basic chasis. 150 pres for the duel chasis. Any team that has this amount of res floating about will have been seriosly vunrable for a while in the game. And a decent skulk cant give an exo a real run for its money up close.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Ok, I guess this is just a symptom of this being a forum with many different people giving their own input.

    Most people are stating that the exo is "underpowered" because of how low its mobility is. You are saying that a skulk can pose a serious threat to an exo.
    Which one is it? Does the exo have too little firepower or is it too slow, or is it both?
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    <!--coloro:#FF8C00--><span style="color:#FF8C00"><!--/coloro-->Be nice.
    -Align<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
  • RowenRowen Join Date: 2012-05-04 Member: 151545Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1968091:date=Aug 29 2012, 11:50 AM:name=elmo9000)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (elmo9000 @ Aug 29 2012, 11:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968091"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Onos has always suffered from the same though, both ns1 and ns2 incarnations and rarely sees use. You can just use fades and jetpacks, they cant be ignored either (would even argue that the fade is a bigger threath than the onos, same as a jetpacks is bigger threath than the exo, mainly due to the superior ability to respond and attack all over the map), and simply do the job better and have much more versatile roles.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    That's pretty much what I meant - most of the time the usefulness/pres cost ration of a fade is much better than the onos', and 95% of the time 5 jetpacks are going to be more useful than 1 exo. Still they may have their uses - when using arc, maybe, as they are no more mobile than exos.
  • piratedavepiratedave Join Date: 2012-03-10 Member: 148561Members
    if you are a min maxer : JP >>>> EXO
    if you just want to have fun : EXO >>>> JP
  • EgoGamerEgoGamer Join Date: 2012-06-21 Member: 153536Members, Reinforced - Onos, WC 2013 - Supporter
    I think having a heavy-duty beacon with high cost and limited charges could be viable. High enough cost and few charges could promote it's use in only emergencys.
    The problem is also promoting the tactic of 'kill hive --> beacon --> weld up --> march to next hive'

    It's still early days yet though, I'd like to see if competitive teams can come up with some creative strategies. Or if they avoid it in favour of jetpacks.
  • _Necro__Necro_ Join Date: 2011-02-15 Member: 81895Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    How about leaving one exo in base? Or just having not the complete team going exo?
  • GrimfangGrimfang Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13086Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    The Exo fills more or less the same roll as ARC, and sieges did in NS1. If you are unable to send in marines with jetpack and bring down the hive, you can send in and Exo with 1-2 marines as backup/welding. It will force the Aliens to send a lot of units to deal with the Exo.

    I don't see the Exo as a good rambo one man army, but as an investment to take down a hive, with whatever upgrade chambers might be in there, it's probably a valid investment.
  • KeldornKeldorn Join Date: 2012-05-05 Member: 151587Members
    edited August 2012
    The exo has drawbacks balancing it, jps don't have any drawbacks. I think that's where the problem lies. Logically you'll gain mobility for less firepower, not sure how you're gonna implement that though without breaking it.

    You'd have to prevent JPers from using heavy weapons at all, or give nasty side effects if they do.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1968196:date=Aug 29 2012, 09:15 AM:name=Grimfang)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Grimfang @ Aug 29 2012, 09:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968196"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Exo fills more or less the same roll as ARC, and sieges did in NS1. If you are unable to send in marines with jetpack and bring down the hive, you can send in and Exo with 1-2 marines as backup/welding. It will force the Aliens to send a lot of units to deal with the Exo.

    I don't see the Exo as a good rambo one man army, but as an investment to take down a hive, with whatever upgrade chambers might be in there, it's probably a valid investment.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    That's actually an interesting point: if exos largely have the same purposes and weaknesses as arcs, isn't that a design problem? An arc that can shoot players....unless you absolutely need to shoot through walls, why ever use an arc?
  • KeldornKeldorn Join Date: 2012-05-05 Member: 151587Members
    edited August 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1968200:date=Aug 29 2012, 03:28 PM:name=Typhon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Typhon @ Aug 29 2012, 03:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1968200"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's actually an interesting point: if exos largely have the same purposes and weaknesses as arcs, isn't that a design problem? An arc that can shoot players....unless you absolutely need to shoot through walls, why ever use an arc?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Arcs require tres instead of pres, arcs don't count towards the team's playercount. They are a good backup support siege firepower.
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