Shotgun spread and "hit reg problems"

rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
edited November 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">just an observation</div>So myself and GORGEous were just testing out some of the randomness of the shotty spread, thought I would share and see if anyone else has opinions on said topic.

<div align='center'>video:</div>
<center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/HPcXC1Ml1rc"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/HPcXC1Ml1rc" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center>

some things to note: The shotgun fires 10 bullets total, the hits are displayed as a single red line. Missed bullets get their own individual green line, so 4 green lines and a red line = 4 missed bullets, 6 bullets hit.

# of Weapons 0 shotgun hits to kill a cara fade: 27 pellets (or about 3 shots assuming 100% pellet accuracy)
# of Weapons 0 shotgun hits to kill a cara skulk: 10 pellets or one shot, assuming 100% of the pellets hit

Anyway.. I think when people complain about hitreg issues they may in part also be unknowingly complaining about the randomness of the shotgun spread as it's not uncommon to hit a skulk dead on (or seemingly) 2-3+ times and still it lives. Some of that may be hit registration, but I think another thing to point out is that the shotty really seems to be a glorified melee weapon ... even after the recent "buff". The models in the video are pretty damn close to me and still you see 50%+ of the pellets just straight up miss due to the spread.


no real point to this thread I guess, just an observation of how random the shotgun can be.

edit:

eh? made this picture- this is the actual shotgun spread, so this exact spread rotates randomly and that's what you get. You can see 40% of the pellets are pretty much in the top-leftish of the spread (in this picture) so if you happen to roll the dice and that corner lands favorably on your target you will get a significant amount of extra damage on that shot...

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/LLtpx.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" />

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Comments

  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    that spread sucks. i wish it were generated on a per-shotty basis instead of always being the same pattern. and i wish the grouping was tighter towards the center.
  • OnosFactoryOnosFactory New Zealand Join Date: 2008-07-16 Member: 64637Members
    You wish for a small spread, untill playing as a fade :)
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited August 2012
    Most of the time when ppl complain about missed shots that should be kills in their opinion, its because they got a hit-indicator, tho only aimed like on the edge of the lifeform(so actually only 1-3 bullets did hit), or the distance was a little bit too big and they also missed (or partially missed) their follow up shots.

    At least when i reimagine how a lost shotgun fight went its usually because i made too many partial hits and not deadcenter hits... (if you make deadcenter hits, and got the feeling where the "deadzone" range starts - its very reliable)

    Tho depending on distance you can also work with partial hits(you need to get a feeling for this), so i usually know if i dont get the perfect hit - ill need 3 shots now or whatever.


    edit: ok now with that pattern picture and explanation... guess its not only bad aim...
    Tho i never felt like its the hitreg - its randomness of bullets and/or just bad aim. (and ofc bad performance that leads to bad aim, i hate it when performance drops and i suddenly get/feel a resistance while aiming, or ppl warp around randomly.)
  • NordicNordic Long term camping in Kodiak Join Date: 2012-05-13 Member: 151995Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Supporter, Reinforced - Silver, Reinforced - Shadow
    In your video it looked like you hit that skulk dead on, yet nothing hit. No wonder I never use shotgun
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1957969:date=Aug 5 2012, 11:25 PM:name=james888)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (james888 @ Aug 5 2012, 11:25 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1957969"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In your video it looked like you hit that skulk dead on, yet nothing hit. No wonder I never use shotgun<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Reread rantology's post. The one red trace you see represents <b>all</b> the shells that hit. Only the green misses show individually.
  • StoopStoop Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 2973Members
    But how is it I get one-shotted from 30 feet away? even with cara sometimes.
  • UzguzUzguz Join Date: 2003-06-05 Member: 17016Members, Constellation
    The spread should be radially symmetrical to avoid issues like these.
  • NeoRussiaNeoRussia Join Date: 2012-08-04 Member: 154743Members
    I don't understand why can't it just be fixed weapon spread so that all the pellets always go in the same place? Then any sort of randomness will never happen and there's no downside to this whatsoever.
  • antacidantacid Join Date: 2007-08-07 Member: 61821Members, NS2 Playtester
    Uh I pull up triple kills on a daily basis with the shotty, I seem to have no problem 1 shotting flying lerks out of the sky and decimating entire groups of skulks with the shotty.

    Perhaps the people who have problems have issues that go deeper than the games mechanics..........
  • GrimfangGrimfang Join Date: 2003-02-04 Member: 13086Members, Constellation, Reinforced - Shadow
    I think it would be nice to have the shorgun hit sort of consistently in the same spot. That would make it easier to predict if you hit something. It might be performance related, but right now it seems a bit to random if you hit anything, and I often skip the shotgun, and go for something else.

    So in short up the chance of hitting, and then nerf damage to compensate.
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1958005:date=Aug 6 2012, 03:36 AM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 6 2012, 03:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uh I pull up triple kills on a daily basis with the shotty, I seem to have no problem 1 shotting flying lerks out of the sky and decimating entire groups of skulks with the shotty.

    Perhaps the people who have problems have issues that go deeper than the games mechanics..........<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Yeah.

    Ok.

    Keep us posted how great the shotgun is at pub stomping 3 day old players.


    (it's important to note that lerks actually can't be 1-shot with carapace)
  • DrFlammableDrFlammable Join Date: 2012-04-18 Member: 150705Members
    here, i fixed it. i think.

    <a href="http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+%5B%5B-2.8%2C+4%5D%2C%5B-1%2C3.5%5D%2C%5B3%2C3.5%5D%2C%5B-3.5%2C0%5D%2C%5B0%2C1.5%5D%2C%5B0.4%2C0.5%5D%2C%5B-2%2C-2%5D%2C%5B1%2C-0.5%5D%2C%5B2%2C-2.5%5D%2C%5B-1%2C0%5D%2C%5B-.39%2C.8%5D%5D" target="_blank">http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=plot+...-.39%2C.8%5D%5D</a> (plot of all 10 pellets + center of distribution)

    current distribution of pellets is skewed towards one side slightly, in this example and in the picture, top left. so the center of the distribution is actually [-.39,.8] and not [0,0] where it should be (where your crosshair is)

    simple fix: change all the GetNormalizedVectors in shotgun.lua so that the center of the distribution is [0,0]
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    Personally i think most of the problems with the SG is just 50 armor carapace leap skulks... its just way to much armor for a skulk.

    The fade issues are more just bad collisions making blocking a fade impossible, and it so easily to get out when stuck as a fade, and the blink effect being pretty ambiguous as to where the model actually is.
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1958007:date=Aug 6 2012, 12:43 AM:name=GORGEous)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GORGEous @ Aug 6 2012, 12:43 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yeah.

    Ok.

    Keep us posted how great the shotgun is at pub stomping 3 day old players.


    (it's important to note that lerks actually can't be 1-shot with carapace)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Words, out, of, my, mouth.

    I think if the shotgun is buffed anymore though, it will become way too good? I think once performance is much better it would be a better time to evaluate maybe..
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1958022:date=Aug 6 2012, 07:07 PM:name=xDragon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (xDragon @ Aug 6 2012, 07:07 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958022"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally i think most of the problems with the SG is just 50 armor carapace leap skulks... its just way to much armor for a skulk.

    The fade issues are more just bad collisions making blocking a fade impossible, and it so easily to get out when stuck as a fade, and the blink effect being pretty ambiguous as to where the model actually is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    qft
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    Here is some symmetric patterns (average = [0,0] ) :

    <img src="http://i.imgur.com/8UMZM.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
  • AurOn2AurOn2 COOKIES&#33; FREEDOM, AND BISCUITS&#33; Australia Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140224Members, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Forum staff
    the last one would definately be more representive of the weapons nature, where the first would be death to anything it hits.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    That wolfram plot shows a really uneven spread. Hopefully UWE can be convinced to use a more fair distribution.
  • SlamHanniganSlamHannigan Join Date: 2012-07-06 Member: 153952Members
    I'd be more interested in seeing cara get a slight nerf and then seeing what people think of the shotgun's viability. But I will say that taking one pattern and rotating it randomly seems like an exceptionally bad way of simulating that spread.
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    edited August 2012
    No, it's a good idea in theory. It guarantees that you'll never have a terrible distribution (perfect aim up close but all the pellets go way off in the corner so you get robbed of a great shot), or incredibly lucky distribution (bad aim for away but all your pellets go right where they need to so you somehow snipe a fade from a long distance). By rotating the fixed spread it also prevents players from learning or marking their screens with where all the pellets land.

    The problem is that the current spread is not weighted properly to the center of your screen, so it's average damage is actually higher slightly off center, which is really misleading, and can still lead to particularly lucky or unlucky shots.
  • SlamHanniganSlamHannigan Join Date: 2012-07-06 Member: 153952Members
    That is a better way of putting it, thank you. I guess it's more accurate to say that luck shouldn't be as big a factor with the shotgun as it currently is. Though the way it's engineered right now makes it only really viable at close range, which it should be. Just seems like there should be a better way of going about it.
  • DrFlammableDrFlammable Join Date: 2012-04-18 Member: 150705Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1958133:date=Aug 6 2012, 11:16 AM:name=SlamHannigan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SlamHannigan @ Aug 6 2012, 11:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958133"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That is a better way of putting it, thank you. I guess it's more accurate to say that luck shouldn't be as big a factor with the shotgun as it currently is. Though the way it's engineered right now makes it only really viable at close range, which it should be. Just seems like there should be a better way of going about it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    luck shouldn't be a factor at all. yes. unfortunately/realistically that's how a shotgun works in most games, so working within the confines of the game system the best solution is to normalize the distribution to [0,0]. it's just not a priority for the devs right now. the trick is to getting something that's consistent (for shotguns) and balanced. i mean, you could put all the points on 0,0 but then you'd have a sniper rifle (which i did last night, it was pretty funny actually). i thought eh was working on something so i didn't bother working out specific points. and yeah there are better ways to do it but you've got to fit performance and design constraints. a realistic shotgun in ns2 would be way overpowered because they're accurate up to 40m usually which is bigger than most rooms currently in the game.
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    edited August 2012
    Very interesting OP. I also like the suggested symmetric spreads. Honestly though, I haven't had a lot of problems with shotgun hitreg, or perhaps I should say perceived hitreg.

    What I do notice very often, however, is a lack of perceived machine gun hitreg. I have no idea what causes it -- whether it be actual networking problems, low fps, low server performance, alien animations, alien hitboxes or something entirely different -- but I know that hitting skulks, lerks and fades with the machine gun is significantly more difficult than it was in NS1.
  • rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
    Bullet impact sounds are still non-existant and those are pretty big audio queues on exactly how many bullets are going where..
  • Jonp_11Jonp_11 Join Date: 2003-08-24 Member: 20161Members
    Great work figuring the spread out. I hope UWE takes note and makes some changes to it.
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    Look like there's an easy win here, or at least an easy improvement to be made.
  • internetexplorerinternetexplorer Join Date: 2011-10-13 Member: 127255Members
    edited August 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1958003:date=Aug 6 2012, 03:31 AM:name=NeoRussia)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoRussia @ Aug 6 2012, 03:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958003"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand why can't it just be fixed weapon spread so that all the pellets always go in the same place? Then any sort of randomness will never happen and there's no downside to this whatsoever.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    holy ###### it's someone from tf2 who knows what they're talking about

    please pay attention, guys!
  • spellman23spellman23 NS1 Theorycraft Expert Join Date: 2007-05-17 Member: 60920Members
    edited August 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1958204:date=Aug 6 2012, 11:07 AM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Aug 6 2012, 11:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958204"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Very interesting OP. I also like the suggested symmetric spreads. Honestly though, I haven't had a lot of problems with shotgun hitreg, or perhaps I should say perceived hitreg.

    What I do notice very often, however, is a lack of perceived machine gun hitreg. I have no idea what causes it -- whether it be actual networking problems, low fps, low server performance, alien animations, alien hitboxes or something entirely different -- but I know that hitting skulks, lerks and fades with the machine gun is significantly more difficult than it was in NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    +1 to the last point. Although the feel of the shotty is that it's not very consistent in dealing damage at close range either. Just like how for random reasons I magically can't land 5 bites in a row.

    I know that in NS1 I could time the blast so all the bullets hit (yes, effectively melee weapon, but a 1-shot one on Skulks baby), but that seems impossible in NS2.
  • hakenspithakenspit Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1958005:date=Aug 6 2012, 06:36 PM:name=antacid)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (antacid @ Aug 6 2012, 06:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1958005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Uh I pull up triple kills on a daily basis with the shotty, I seem to have no problem 1 shotting flying lerks out of the sky and decimating entire groups of skulks with the shotty.

    Perhaps the people who have problems have issues that go deeper than the games mechanics..........<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Personally I agree with you here antacid,
    Those saying its impossible to 1 shot a cara lerk with what level weapons upgrade are you referring 0 or 3?

    Either I have been really unlucky and copped random bullets or you can indeed 1 shot a lerk.

    I do find it interesting that no one has an issue with skulks being 1 shotted with carapace when marines have not upgraded weapons.
    The upgraded skulks should not die to 1 shot of w0 guns.
    w3 fair enough, w2 possibly but no way w0 should 1 shot a carapace skulk after all it is an upgraded alien lifeform not a default one.

    Untill the performance issues are addressed people who dont have the best machines will find hit reg issues tweaking now will leave us with very OP weapons (the SG is already OP'd..1 shot a cara skulk with W0?!!)
  • eh?eh? Join Date: 2012-03-03 Member: 147997Members
    edited August 2012
    Umm, it's virtually impossible to 1 shot a Carapace Skulk with a weapon level zero shotgun...

    It is literally a dice roll whether it works or not that depends on latency. There is no person that plays this game on a regular basis who thinks shotguns are going around on weapons level zero killing skulks in one shot.

    You do exactly 170 damage for the perfect shot and thats exactly how much health the skulk has. The majority of the time the skulk still gets away with less than 1 hp.
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