Nano Construct

rantologyrantology Join Date: 2012-02-05 Member: 143750Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold
edited July 2012 in NS2 General Discussion
<div class="IPBDescription">ever gonna get changed?</div>So today I was in a mineshaft game, Rines had somehow gotten cave (they had JPs at this point, ~20min+ into the game) and they had the usual, CC/armory/PG up. We probably spent about 5-10 minutes wearing them/the pg down and we finally kill the phase gate ! only 2 JPs left and cave is ours right!? NOPE. 1 of the JPs nanoconstucted a new phase gate up before we could even get across the room to him and we were back to square one. (this is just one of many many many examples)


Seriously will this ever get changed? There's no way a 400% building speed bonus can be considered balanced at any point in the game. It still gets spammed on cooldown. Marines still use it to build every single building.


The build bonus needs to change to 50-100% at most, 400% is hilariously imbalanced. 3 t-res cost and a 6 sec cooldown is hilariously trivial. The current build times for the structures in NS2 are not balanced around nano construct. No, giving it a longer cooldown will not solve the problem. No, making it cost more will not solve the problem (though I guess it might help a little).


(figured I would make a nano-construct thread to go with the nano-shield thread- both abilities are hugely problematic UWE!)
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Comments

  • DJPenguinDJPenguin Useless Join Date: 2003-07-29 Member: 18538Members
    edited July 2012
    call me radical but I've never liked the idea of nano construct and would much rather see welders give a boost to construction speed.
  • elodeaelodea Editlodea Join Date: 2009-06-20 Member: 67877Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1952668:date=Jul 20 2012, 10:14 AM:name=rantology)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rantology @ Jul 20 2012, 10:14 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->400% is hilariously imbalanced.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    I agree that its way too fast and used on cd most of the time!

    I couldn't comment on competitive balance, but it seems to me however that pub game balance hinges upon keeping up with an inherently faster alien economy + free hydras and nanoconstruct seems to work in helping get those 50% win rates especially on smaller maps like summit where you can get locked in pretty quickly.
  • MiniH0wieMiniH0wie Join Date: 2007-11-25 Member: 63013Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1952669:date=Jul 19 2012, 07:18 PM:name=DJPenguin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DJPenguin @ Jul 19 2012, 07:18 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->call me radical but I've never liked the idea of nano construct and would much rather see welders give a boost to construction speed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    +1
  • Hunter.S.T.Hunter.S.T. Join Date: 2012-05-26 Member: 152596Members
    theres a cool down on nano construct??? i dont think ive ever been limited by it if there is.
  • Cee Colon SlashCee Colon Slash Join Date: 2012-05-25 Member: 152581Members
    Dump nano construct, allow welders to build faster, and limit nano shield to structures.
  • hakenspithakenspit Join Date: 2010-11-26 Member: 75300Members
    Nano is a terrible balance issue, as others have already said it makes for really bad game play IMO.

    If we need to build a pg in a hurry there should be some off set or compromise, 3 T-Res is hardly a compromise when it means that 1 marine can build as quickly as 4 marines.

    If there are 2 marines in say flight then they should need to make a choice between fast build or covering the other player.
    Now all they need is to be nano'd and that 1 marine can build twice as fast as if they had both been building (and not allowing aliens any advantage as they can still have someone to guard.

    Nano protect a building I will accept if you please take off fast build and marine buffs.
    Lets not throw out game balance in an effort to ensure everything is asymmetrical, nano construct is a bad metric at 400% increase.
    50% at best is all it should offer though I would rather see it elimiated all together and only allow nano on buildings to protect them...or perhaps for macs so they build as quickly as a marine would.

    Aliens dont get a way to either build their buildings as fast as marines do, nor do they get a way to protect their buildings or personal.
    All these buffs are within melee range and swing the advantage significantly in the marines favor.
  • KhyronKhyron Join Date: 2012-02-02 Member: 143308Members
    edited July 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1946591:date=Jun 26 2012, 10:18 AM:name=Khyron)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Khyron @ Jun 26 2012, 10:18 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1946591"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...Nano-construct is the worst offender. It undermines the balance efforts put in to structure build times...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    from <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=119120&view=findpost&p=1946591" target="_blank">this</a> post
  • JoracyJoracy Join Date: 2012-06-17 Member: 153367Members
    An extra incentive to carry welders around is actually a cool idea, and yeah, nano construct is pretty crazy.
  • IronHorseIronHorse Developer, QA Manager, Technical Support & contributor Join Date: 2010-05-08 Member: 71669Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Subnautica Playtester, Subnautica PT Lead, Pistachionauts
    I wouldn't expect it to last.. no one favors it..
  • SkugganSkuggan Join Date: 2010-03-19 Member: 71017Members
    In the balance mod we played with exertus from last patch we had nano give 100% bonus and we also raised the cost.
    This made it more balanced.

    400% buildspeed is just outrageous.
  • WheeeeWheeee Join Date: 2003-02-18 Member: 13713Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    i think nano-shield and nano-construct should only be able to be cast on ai units (buildings and macs).
  • TimMcTimMc Join Date: 2012-02-06 Member: 143945Members
    Along with how bugged phase gates are in thie build, it makes attacking incredibly hard. Marines can step through the dead phase gate and setup another in a second. Only reason aliens can win is they are overpowered in other ways.

    <!--quoteo(post=1952731:date=Jul 20 2012, 12:31 AM:name=Wheeee)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Wheeee @ Jul 20 2012, 12:31 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952731"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i think nano-shield and nano-construct should only be able to be cast on ai units (buildings and macs).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    Considering how slowly MACs build, this is a nice idea. I don't think can even use nanoconstruct with MACs atm.
  • .ADHd.ADHd Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
    I'm slightly worried about taking nano-construct out of the game unless some kind of expansion nerf is also given to the aliens.

    I think what the devs were trying to accomplish was balancing out the fact that aliens have to spend 0 time building at all. If were gonna go back to the same ole "spend 5 mins holding e" crap again then the marines are gonna get slaughtered early game by all the aliens who aren't spending any time building. So now you will have 5 strong aliens hitting your marine team when in general you do a 3/2 split. Now it's going to be 5 aliens vs 3 marines (Due to 2 building RT's).

    Okay that is some serious bullcrap. It's already hard enough to get up and hold RT's even with using nano-construct....
  • YuukiYuuki Join Date: 2010-11-20 Member: 75079Members
    I'm fine with nano-construct removed or severely nerfed.

    If marine needs a buff you can always decrease a bit building times by a small amount like 5%.
  • NakorsonNakorson Join Date: 2012-01-13 Member: 140253Members, NS2 Playtester, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    <!--quoteo(post=1952743:date=Jul 20 2012, 03:16 AM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 20 2012, 03:16 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm slightly worried about taking nano-construct out of the game unless some kind of expansion nerf is also given to the aliens.

    I think what the devs were trying to accomplish was balancing out the fact that aliens have to spend 0 time building at all. If were gonna go back to the same ole "spend 5 mins holding e" crap again then the marines are gonna get slaughtered early game by all the aliens who aren't spending any time building. So now you will have 5 strong aliens hitting your marine team when in general you do a 3/2 split. Now it's going to be 5 aliens vs 3 marines (Due to 2 building RT's).

    Okay that is some serious bullcrap. It's already hard enough to get up and hold RT's even with using nano-construct....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    In theory you are correct but alien buildings build so slow that you need a gorge to speed the building time up if you don't do this you will fall behind the marines in resources very fast. Depending on the size of the teams i see nearly in every game 2 early game gorges. Most times one directly evolves into gorge when the round starts, another one when he died once against marines.

    I'm all for it to nerf nano construct a lot.
    Maybe there has to be a minimum build time for buildings, so that no matter how many marines are helping to set up a building it always takes 3-5sec. A phasegate going up in 1 sec is just silly.
  • elmo9000elmo9000 Join Date: 2012-03-24 Member: 149324Members
    <!--quoteo(post=1952743:date=Jul 20 2012, 12:16 PM:name=.ADHd)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (.ADHd @ Jul 20 2012, 12:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952743"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm slightly worried about taking nano-construct out of the game unless some kind of expansion nerf is also given to the aliens.

    I think what the devs were trying to accomplish was balancing out the fact that aliens have to spend 0 time building at all. If were gonna go back to the same ole "spend 5 mins holding e" crap again then the marines are gonna get slaughtered early game by all the aliens who aren't spending any time building. So now you will have 5 strong aliens hitting your marine team when in general you do a 3/2 split. Now it's going to be 5 aliens vs 3 marines (Due to 2 building RT's).

    Okay that is some serious bullcrap. It's already hard enough to get up and hold RT's even with using nano-construct....<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->


    I think the structures could build even slower for aliens if theres no gorge building them since i dont think alien comm is going away. Or even require the gorge to build them (but dropped by comm) like the marines have to, just a lot faster to count for the fact that you have to be a gorge to do it. Maybe they start to grow like they do now when the gorge healsprays them once, so it requires more than just the comm.

    The only reason why marines are getting slaughtered by big and slow skulks is the hitreg and overall performance problems. I resinstalled ns1 after not playing it for almost 2 years just to feel the difference again. The skulks there are so much smaller and faster and yet, no problem killing them unlike in ns2. They dont bite you from 4 meters away and actually die when you hit them with 10 lmg bullets. Not to mention the awesome movement of the ns1 marine making bite dodging much more effective and fun. Tbh after trying it again, i cant bring myself to play ns2 in its current state.

    Never liked nano construct, it takes away the suspense from having to put out your gun for extended period of time. Phasegates definitely go up way too fast with it, when you see the gate being dropped its already too late.
  • ScrajmScrajm Join Date: 2011-10-17 Member: 127859Members
    I wonder how making nano construct like chrono boost would work out.
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    A 400% rate is absolutely ridiculous. If it stays, it should be somewhere about +50% only.
  • LocklearLocklear [nexzil]kerrigan Join Date: 2012-05-01 Member: 151403Members, NS2 Playtester, NS2 Map Tester, WC 2013 - Shadow
    I think the Nanoconstruct is in just for the reason AdHd said but at the same time it can't be 400% and be balanced. It's way too fast.

    There is a problem with map control ease for sure though. Aliens always have the edge in that department because they don't require players present to take an area. (for the most part, Gorges help speed up the process)
  • fanaticfanatic This post has been edited. Join Date: 2003-07-23 Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
    Doesn't matter hoe small you make the boost -- you're always going to want to use it when putting up a pg, and it's always going to break pg build time balance. The time it takes to build a pg is quite simply required to give aliens a chance to prevent it.
  • ellnicellnic Join Date: 2010-07-19 Member: 72559Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    I dont really like it either, but this build it one of very few things thats helping the mariens stand a chance against an OP alien team. That and PG's can work with no power
  • TweadleTweadle Join Date: 2005-02-03 Member: 39686Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1952785:date=Jul 20 2012, 03:19 PM:name=fanatic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (fanatic @ Jul 20 2012, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952785"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Doesn't matter hoe small you make the boost -- you're always going to want to use it when putting up a pg, and it's always going to break pg build time balance. The time it takes to build a pg is quite simply required to give aliens a chance to prevent it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
    Pretty much.
  • UzguzUzguz Join Date: 2003-06-05 Member: 17016Members, Constellation
    The line of logic that says Nanoconstruct is needed to counter alien expansion hinges on a faulty premise: If alien expansion is itself overpowered, keeping another faulty mechanic as a counterweight is not much of a solution. Surely it's better to fix the problem at the source?
  • TyphonTyphon Join Date: 2002-11-01 Member: 1899Members
    Exactly. How about just reducing the rate at which infestation spreads out from cysts? That way it takes longer to get rts up.
  • KoruyoKoruyo AUT Join Date: 2009-06-06 Member: 67724Members, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2012
    Actually removing nanoshield and construct sounds pretty much the best.

    I think we would get much better gameplay without those abilitys. (some adjustments needed ofc)

    Nanoconstruct is currently a no-brainer, you pretty much use it for every rt or forward structure you build... you might as well just implement the cost into structures and make the build faster from start... you more or less NEVER drop stuff without also having the res for a nanoconstruct in dangerous territory. (and for every rt no matter what)
  • ScardyBobScardyBob ScardyBob Join Date: 2009-11-25 Member: 69528Forum Admins, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow
    The current setup is problematic, mostly because nanoconstruct has different values for different structures (i.e. PG nano > Armslab nano). However, I think the problem is in its implementation rather than the core concept. Its similar to the 'time value of money' in which there exists a discount rate in which getting the structure sooner is worth the extra cost, and the problem is that the current discount rate (3TRes across all structures) is too little for some structures (i.e. you always nanoshield mairnes building this structure) and too much for others. I'd change it by:
    - Nanoconstruct is cast on the structure, rather than the player
    - The cost is different based on structure (i.e. higher for PG, lower for arms lab)

    As long as you price the TRes cost for each structure correctly, the % faster buildrate shouldn't matter. Though, as a practical matter, I wouldn't mind seeing the buildrate reduced to 200% so that the TRes cost doesn't have to be astronomical to balance.
  • Death_by_bulletsDeath_by_bullets Join Date: 2004-03-14 Member: 27336Members
    Im guilty of spamming the ###### out of nano. Not saying it's fair but I do it as comm.
  • xDragonxDragon Join Date: 2012-04-04 Member: 149948Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, NS2 Map Tester, Reinforced - Shadow
    edited July 2012
    The problem with nano construct is that you are always going to use it on certain buildings, so you need complicated balance for it with variable cost of effectiveness or variable build speed increase. Neither solution is good, variable cost is difficult to show to the commander, and variable build speed increase is difficult to balance mathmatically on certain structures (PG, arms labs, rts). Generally speaking I think the ability will always be a balance nightmare, where getting it just right would be exceedingly difficult, and not really worth it for the small depth it adds.
  • GORGEousGORGEous Join Date: 2012-02-19 Member: 146762Members, NS2 Map Tester
    <!--quoteo(post=1952845:date=Jul 20 2012, 04:16 PM:name=ScardyBob)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ScardyBob @ Jul 20 2012, 04:16 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952845"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The current setup is problematic, mostly because nanoconstruct has different values for different structures (i.e. PG nano > Armslab nano). However, I think the problem is in its implementation rather than the core concept. Its similar to the 'time value of money' in which there exists a discount rate in which getting the structure sooner is worth the extra cost, and the problem is that the current discount rate (3TRes across all structures) is too little for some structures (i.e. you always nanoshield mairnes building this structure) and too much for others. I'd change it by:
    - Nanoconstruct is cast on the structure, rather than the player
    - The cost is different based on structure (i.e. higher for PG, lower for arms lab)

    As long as you price the TRes cost for each structure correctly, the % faster buildrate shouldn't matter. Though, as a practical matter, I wouldn't mind seeing the buildrate reduced to 200% so that the TRes cost doesn't have to be astronomical to balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    200% is still way too much. It should be, like, 50% if it is not flat out removed.

    Building structures is one of the main disadvantages for marines. If you have two players securing an RT then one builds and one covers. With nanobuild, it is up almost instantly. This destroys the incentive for aliens to attack RTs because it takes an alien longer about 10x longer to destroy the RT than it takes a marine to rebuild it. On top of the fact that the RT pays itsself off so quickly, RTs become less and less important for marines to protect as they can simply rebuild them.

    On forward bases, nanoconstruct creates a second problem. Forward phase gates and armories are incredibly huge advantages for the marine teams if they are able to get them up. This time period where the marines are setting up and building their forward outpost is where they are vulnerable. Nanoconstruct removes that vulnerability and allows marines to set up incredibly strong footholds anywhere on the map in less than 10 seconds.

    Mostly this all boils down to the modifier. 400% on anything, but specially a core mechanic of one of the factions, is going to cause problems. 400% is such an ungodly high modifier. If you want a tres vs speed investment, you should have it set much lower -- to 50%. Even cutting off 1/3 of the build time off a critical structure is important and worth the 3 tres. But it's not something you spam on every single building like you currently see with any insanely high modifier nanobuild.

    I'm for just removing it, though. It makes building RTs and forward bases trivial time investments.
  • .ADHd.ADHd Join Date: 2012-02-18 Member: 146565Members
    edited July 2012
    <!--quoteo(post=1952797:date=Jul 20 2012, 10:06 AM:name=Uzguz)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Uzguz @ Jul 20 2012, 10:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1952797"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The line of logic that says Nanoconstruct is needed to counter alien expansion hinges on a faulty premise: If alien expansion is itself overpowered, keeping another faulty mechanic as a counterweight is not much of a solution. Surely it's better to fix the problem at the source?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

    What is the source of the problem do you think? I am pretty amazed that the devs would add in nano-construct if they knew the problem and how to fix it. It feels to me like they aren't even sure what the problem is, so they added this in the meantime. It's almost a slap in the face to the classic NS formula to be honest. But as the current alien economy stands... nano construct is essential... I have been saying it for months, but alien expansion rate is incredibly absurd. Tons of alien tech and structures are far too powerful for their cost as well. UWE has never seriously addressed this and it appears to me they have no intentions to fix this extremely broken aspect of the game... (Nano-construct? Give me a break)

    I have always been a strong advocate for bringing back the early game and resource collection time. The beginning of the game should be centered around building infrastructure, not combat.

    There is no such thing as early game in NS2, you just go out of base guns blazing, and it really is damaging the fine tuned balance that COULD be in this game.

    This is a touchy subject for me, because I have never had a problem with building or welding things. Maybe the community cried and complained about how much time is spent building? Boo hoo, because adding nano-construct is a gigantic band-aid. There are some definite things that need to be tweaked in regards to build time, such as the robotics factory. Also phase gates should be able to be built fairly quickly but not instantaneously.


    All they need to do is tweak the build time of cysts, and harvesters so the expansion isn't so lightning quick. Or even better... they might also flirt with the idea of making cysts cost more or having harvesters cost more, because if the aliens expansion isn't touched it won't matter how long things take to build they will eventually have 6-8 harvesters up in no time if marines can't pressure. I can have 8 RT's up in docking within 3 mins into the game. All my team had to do was abuse the hitreg with skulks by jumping like crazy and keeping the marines out of our territory. Not to mention once marines get into alien territory they more than likely will be slaughtered.

    <!--sizeo:6--><span style="font-size:24pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo--><b>Early game needs to be much more difficult for the aliens and should require a lot more teamwork</b><!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->. Right now it's just run out of base and abuse skulk movement till you have enough res for a fade in 5 mins. It's way too easy. But whatever these points have been brought up by many people in the community and they are still being ignored and fixed with band-aids like nano-construct.


    If I can have RT's building in maintenance, ballcourt, and locker rooms, plus my already built base RT, and have cysts all the way into onos bar, east wing and through tram departures by the time the marines have only gotten into terminal from MS in cafe then there is a serious problem. This was with random pub people too so nothing special in regards to team stacking. Yeah I had to hold myself back from using coarse language there.
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